Thornton & Marleau get extensions

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Perhaps it is debatable whether he is 'soft' or not, or how soft he is, or whatever.  I lean towards cowboys and kelvana in that the stories of his softness have become a little exaggerated in the ex-girlfirend syndrome way.  He shouldn't have been a captain,  but it also wasn't that bad.

    The next issue is whether a 'softish' player, who averages over a point-per-game can still be a highly useful player on a playoff team.  I think that San Jose needs some new leaders and some different talents, but I also think that they are much better with Thornton than without, for the next three years at least. 

    [/QUOTE]

    ^^^THIS^^ is excellent! 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Soft.

    [/QUOTE]

    Did you have another Dr's appt again? Sorry about your luck bro...!Tongue Out

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from cowboys9. Show cowboys9's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to shuperman's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to kelvana33's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    If he had Joe Sakics frame, nobody would be calling him soft. I hear people say they would rather not see Lucic in the penalty box. Thorntons game is a point producing first line center. But becuase of his size, and that he will fight if prodded, he is labeled as soft.

    That said, Bookboy nailed it on the head when he mentioned Mike Keenan. Say what you want about Keenan, but he demands his best players play a certain way, and he certainly got the most out of Thornton. Perhaps McLellan has advised him to stay out of the box, who knows, but those PIMS's Bookboy pointed out would make a case for that.

    [/QUOTE]

    I love Joe. Had the pleasure to meet him and was awesome to be around.   I hope he gets a cup some day.  Hes far from soft.  His size and personality may indicate that but hes not shy to throw the gloves down.  I will always be a fan.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Right there with you Shupe... Some peoples expectations of what they expected out of him are over the top...His skill set is amazing, he makes players around him better, and it takes a team to win a Cup, and I think he gets a bad rap for that.... I will enjoy the day when he is inducted into the HOF. Great career and not over yet by a long shote..

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Soft.

    [/QUOTE]

    Did you have another Dr's appt again? Sorry about your luck bro...!Tongue Out

    [/QUOTE]

    Dr??  Get shupe in here and the problem will go away in a flash...

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    He's been very successful...at putting up regular season points.  That's where we started with this, isn't it?  If that's enough for you, fine; but I'd submit that if your message to your team is "let Joe be Joe...you go stand in front of Chara so he can sit on the boards and look for passes" you won't be coach for very long because someone will sit on his finisher.  It isn't how good or not Thornton is at finding a perimeter dead zone from which to make a pass; it's that, no matter how good you are at it, good teams can shute that down when it counts.  If you deny him those passes, force him to go to the net, and he chooses to force the pass - you're going to win.  And that's what I've seen year after year of watching him lose his last game of the year.  In the context of a playoff series, teams are able to expose the part of his game that's soft.

    To address shupe's Gretzky 'mention' since he said it wasn't a comparison - Gretzky did exactly what I'm talking about.  As a young player, he took the puck to the net so effectively it made the curl lethal.  And as he got older, he turned it around - teams would be so concerned about taking away the pass that he would walk in and pick his spot.  If Joe did that - if he took the opportunity to drive the net when it was there - he would make the Sharks more of a contender.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    Yeah, more about the various flaws of Joe's game and Sharks well-known struggles in the playoffs.  All noted, and signed of on, UPS style.  

    But the discussion here is about making an imperfect choice.  Yes or no to Thornton and Marleau.

    For the price and the term of the deal, I think the Sharks are better off with yes.  So do they.  Why?  Because the 'no' option is even worse for the team than Thornton not going to the net enough.  It makes them stink at a time when they could still be one of the best in the west.  At a time when Pavelski and Couture are cruising into their primes.

    Another three years to find enough compliments to Joe's game, that teams can't, in fact, just keep on him and close down his passing in the playoffs.  Two good wingers cycling and driving to the net doesn't allow for the individual attention paid to Thornton that you describe.  An improved second and thrid lin doesn't allow for the matchups aimed at Thornton that we've seen either.

    3 years...we'll see...

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    That's a smart way to look at it.  Brilliant even, Fletch.

    Sounds like a shorter version of this: "I wonder how much of a no brainer this was for Wilson?  Or if he took a serious look at Couture and Pavelski and thought maybe it's time to re-shape the team around those guys, get younger, and look for another critical mass of talent in a year or two?

    Biggest problem is that they have as good a shote as any of those big 5 teams to come out of that Western dog-fight.  Maybe not the favorite, but well within the realm of possibility.  That means they'd have almost no choice but to ride the season out with these two and lose them for nothing or look for a trade that would help now and in the future (Toronto?).  Tough call."

    If they decided to go another direction, it wouldn't be JT and PM or Nothing, right?  You'd want to make the decision you were going another direction and then make a deal so another team could at least rent them - and I'm guessing Toronto would be in pitching Kadri and waterfront property in downtown Toronto for Thornton.  But that would almost certainly be a step backward in the immediate term, and hey, this could be their year.  Better to sign them than lose them for nothing - at least for 3 years.

    I wouldn't want to be Wilson if they cack out in the first round, though.  And they are very likely facing the Kings in round 1.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    I don't even know who the quote is from (and don't feel like looking it up...).  Some hack?

    Plenty of opportunity cost either way.  I'd still take Thornton over the 'mystery box' in a Kadri type, mainly because I think Thornton helps Pavelski, Couture, and Wingels.  

    I think I'm inferring that some people believe Thornton is almost holding them back.  Nonsense.  Pavelski gets 2nd line center matchups and Couture gets a guy with 45 assists so far this year.  Guys like Hertl and Nieto might be developing into something useful too.  There is a chance they all hit their stride in the next couple of years.  Maybe not, but Thornton is a top ten NHL scorer on a good, playoff bound team.  I'd ride it out a bit longer.

    I think Couture, Pavelski and Co. need still him badly to keep their game where it is.

    Or maybe some of those guys should inquire about the fastly growing "We used to play with Joe Thornton and now stink" club (WUTPWJTANS):

    President: Jonathan Cheechoo

    Vice Pres: Devin Setaguchi

    Treasurer: Ryan Clowe

    Secretary: Niko Dimitrakos

    Manager: Dany Heatley

    Clerk: Douglas Murray

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to 50belowzero's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    " Could be a very dangerous team."

    [/QUOTE]

    Have said that every year for the past 8 yrs and to no avail, but again they could be a very dangerous team,likely not.

    [/QUOTE]

    So did the redwings with stevie y before they won.  It didnt happen overnight.  It was so bad he was almost dealt to the Caps.  

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    He's been very successful...at putting up regular season points.  That's where we started with this, isn't it?  If that's enough for you, fine; but I'd submit that if your message to your team is "let Joe be Joe...you go stand in front of Chara so he can sit on the boards and look for passes" you won't be coach for very long because someone will sit on his finisher.  It isn't how good or not Thornton is at finding a perimeter dead zone from which to make a pass; it's that, no matter how good you are at it, good teams can shute that down when it counts.  If you deny him those passes, force him to go to the net, and he chooses to force the pass - you're going to win.  And that's what I've seen year after year of watching him lose his last game of the year.  In the context of a playoff series, teams are able to expose the part of his game that's soft.

    To address shupe's Gretzky 'mention' since he said it wasn't a comparison - Gretzky did exactly what I'm talking about.  As a young player, he took the puck to the net so effectively it made the curl lethal.  And as he got older, he turned it around - teams would be so concerned about taking away the pass that he would walk in and pick his spot.  If Joe did that - if he took the opportunity to drive the net when it was there - he would make the Sharks more of a contender.



    Lots of great regular season players do not have their hands on the cup.   Which makes the ST argument disgusting.  

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Soft.

    [/QUOTE]

    Did you have another Dr's appt again? Sorry about your luck bro...!Tongue Out

    [/QUOTE]

    Dr??  Get shupe in here and the problem will go away in a flash...

    [/QUOTE]

    BAWHAAAA!!!! Laughing Great stuff Fletch!

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Did you have another Dr's appt again? Sorry about your luck bro...!Tongue Out

    [/QUOTE]

    Dr??  Get shupe in here and the problem will go away in a flash...

    [/QUOTE]

    I hate you both.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Did you have another Dr's appt again? Sorry about your luck bro...!Tongue Out

    [/QUOTE]

    Dr??  Get shupe in here and the problem will go away in a flash...

    [/QUOTE]

    I hate you both.

    [/QUOTE]

    LOL! 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to 50belowzero's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    "Samsonov was slowed by injury and was never the dynamo he was projected to be."  

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

    I can still hear Fred Cusick now, "Samsonov enters the zone,twisting,turning,oh..he lost the puck". More moves than ex-lax but alas it never quite panned out,thought he was going to be great,oh well.

    [/QUOTE]

    Cusick retired before Samsonov was a Bruin.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    I find it had to call someone who is in the Top 50 all-time in scoring a dissapointment, even if he was a number one overall. How many of those top 50 were number one overalls?

    I don't buy the whole regular season versus playoffs debate. In any sport. So if the Sharks go out and get Tomas Vanek at the deadline and win it all that somehow validates Thorntons career? Yzerman didn't win a thing until Fedorov and company came along. Was he not as good until then? Elway, nothing until Terrell Davis, when fact is, Elway had to be less stellar of a quarteback becuase he finally had a r unning back that Marino never had.

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to kelvana33's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to 50belowzero's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    "Samsonov was slowed by injury and was never the dynamo he was projected to be."  

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

    I can still hear Fred Cusick now, "Samsonov enters the zone,twisting,turning,oh..he lost the puck". More moves than ex-lax but alas it never quite panned out,thought he was going to be great,oh well.

    [/QUOTE]

    Cusick retired before Samsonov was a Bruin.

    [/QUOTE]

    I could have sworn,strictly going by memorie and it is foggy, maybe Dale Arnold then, but if Samsonov played for the B's in !997 & Fred retired in 97, maybe he did a few games when Sergei played his first year?Anyway i loved Fred & Turk though.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to kelvana33's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I find it had to call someone who is in the Top 50 all-time in scoring a dissapointment, even if he was a number one overall. How many of those top 50 were number one overalls?

    I don't buy the whole regular season versus playoffs debate. In any sport. So if the Sharks go out and get Tomas Vanek at the deadline and win it all that somehow validates Thorntons career? Yzerman didn't win a thing until Fedorov and company came along. Was he not as good until then? Elway, nothing until Terrell Davis, when fact is, Elway had to be less stellar of a quarteback becuase he finally had a r unning back that Marino never had.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    But Wilson has surrounded Joe with just about every conceivable player and linemate and still no Cup or SCF for that matter.Joe's a good player,no question, but a true playoff warrior? I don't know. He still has time and the Sharks are good.Could end up being another Park,Dionne,Gilbert, not bad list to be on,just not a Cup winner.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Thornton & Marleau get extensions

    In response to 50belowzero's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to kelvana33's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to 50belowzero's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    "Samsonov was slowed by injury and was never the dynamo he was projected to be."  

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

    I can still hear Fred Cusick now, "Samsonov enters the zone,twisting,turning,oh..he lost the puck". More moves than ex-lax but alas it never quite panned out,thought he was going to be great,oh well.

    [/QUOTE]

    Cusick retired before Samsonov was a Bruin.

    [/QUOTE]

    I could have sworn,strictly going by memorie and it is foggy, maybe Dale Arnold then, but if Samsonov played for the B's in !997 & Fred retired in 97, maybe he did a few games when Sergei played his first year?Anyway i loved Fred & Turk though.

    [/QUOTE]

    Both Derek & Fred were done at the end of the 97 season. The yr the 29 straight play-off record stopped. JT & Sammy came in the 97-98 draft along with Pat Burns. 

     
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