Thoughts from Montreal

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    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    Cheers, It takes a self-proclaimed level head to provide an unbiased opinion on self-serving  rhetoric!
    In Response to Re: Thoughts from Montreal:
    [QUOTE]With all due respect, the folks in Montreal seem totally out of hand to this level-headed resident of Colorado.  I have never seen such self-serving rhetoric and whineing over something that has been happening in hockey for decades.  Do you have any idea how many players have been checked into the turnbuckle by the bench?  It happens all the time.  Jack Johnson ended Ryan Smyth's season that way a little while back.  No suspension there either.  No outcry from Montreal. Do you know how many players have been hurt by dirty checks in hockey?  And how many have been delivered by Montreal over the years?  But all of the sudden, because it happens to your player, against your rival, it is now criminal? Insane.  It seems like the egotistical whineing of a bunch of spoiled brats to me. And I wish nothing but the best for Pacioretti in his receovery.  I truly feel bad for him.  It's a shame that the reaction from Montreal has made this situation such a complete embarrassment for everyone in hockey.  It's a shame that Air Canada thinks that they should have a say in how the league is run, based on hometown preferences.  Grow up Montreal.
    Posted by Fletcher1[/QUOTE]
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from futbal. Show futbal's posts

    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    Unlike the hits on Savard, Bergeron, Crosby; the Chara hit on the Canadien was not from behind and the injured player had a chance to protect himself.  Les habitants de Montreal, vous n'etes pas special, mais vous le pensez; tabernac!
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from nrguy. Show nrguy's posts

    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    Wedgy, if you came on here and said that the NHL should remove that piece of glass between the benches and tried to take the point of view that Chara didn't mean to put the guy in the hospital, then people would be a lot more amenable to your case.

    You aren't, and you are calling for the elimination of dirty head shots and calling Chara's a dirty play. Almost every player, coach, GM, fan, and analyst outside of Montreal understands that it was an unfortunate accident and was unintentional. But just because it was against your team, you are whining and calling for police investigations. Get your head out of your tookus.
     
    And things get changed because of whinning, sure, but that doesn't necessarily make the change a good thing. 

    Realize it was an accident and think of ways to fix it rather than demonizing Chara. 
     
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    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    In Response to Thoughts from Montreal:
    [QUOTE]Hey Bruins Fans, Reading the B-Globe regularly, I thought I'd drop a word or two in this blog.  I understand your comments.  Some ppl are "over reacting" to Chara's hit on Pacio.  What I call "over reacting" is writing stuff like threats to injuries and hate messages.  You guys may want to take a quick look at this article : "As police probe looms, opinion sours on Zdeno Chara hit - Greg Wyshynski, from Yahoo.com"  It's a pretty good update on the whole situation. http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/As-police-probe-looms-opinion-sours-on-Zdeno-Ch;_ylt=AsOYmKML4F0vNKc_gKbVEVk5nYcB?urn=nhl-wp27 My opinion on the incident comes down to the fact that someone has to do something about the fact that a man can, without any consequences, hit another man in such a way that the victim could be killed or severely injured.  The NHL didn't do anything about the hit and, most importantly, the NHL didn't do anything to protect their players from future injury.  Worst still, the fact that they didn't do anything about it puts a lot of ppl at risk, including you and me, 'cause there'll always be some fans out there, whether they're from Montreal, Boston or whatever, who'll grab the opportunity to take care of justice themselves when something like that goes unpunished.  It might happen on the ice... and we have no players who can fight Chara... so what do you think will happen if, for some reason, someone on our team decides to do something about it ?  Headshot ?  Dirty hits ?  If the NHL took care of their responsabilities, there wouldn't be any outsiders (fans, police, government, Air Canada...) trying to fix what I would call a major problem.  And it's not only a problem for Habs fans... you guys have a worst recent history than ours (Bergeron, Savard...).  Choosing not to do anything about it can only lead to a tragedy, and that tragedy could end up being on your team, just like ours.  Might be Seguin... might be Price... who knows. I know we tend to get emotional.  But I like the idea of ppl who stand up of for their ppl.  Americans know something about that, I'm sure.  The Habs are important down here, and we've got loud ppl and big mouths.  And what's going on down here could be of benefit to the Bruins as well.  The problem is not Chara... the problem is that Chara could do what he did, whether or not there was intent to injure... You guys are a few inches from the Stanley cup... and Marc Savard might have had that one goal that could have made the difference.  If it took an incident in Montreal to create enough turmoil to change the NHL in a better way... than give Montreal a chance to make a difference.  You guys had the opportunity to stick up for your players in such a way that could have made a difference.  You didn't.  Let us try now.  A hockey fan..
    Posted by Wedgy-Dunlop[/QUOTE]


    Wedggie, we all agree that things have to be put in place to protect our favourite players. We should all look in the mirror as a place to start. Montreal is no exception.

    Unfortunately your request for understanding falls on deaf ears around here due to our losses. The Savard hit still bothers me to this day. A dirty hit that is likely to end his career, and not even a penalty is called. Then on a clean hit, that VERY unfortunately, seriously injured a player, and you want to hang Chara. (I say clean hit because they didn't even blow the whistle on the play, and then they didn't give him penalty until they found out Packs was seriously hurt. )

    We don't see it quite the same way as you guys do, so please excuse us for the lack of sympathy. 

     
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    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    I understand what you're all saying.  And we're not demonizing Chara as much as you think we are.  We would have liked that Chara got a suspension, of course.  But we also understand that it would not solve the problem.  In fact, I think that not giving any supension to Chara and not promising any actions to protect the players of the game might be the best thing that happened to hockey.  Giving 5 or 10 games to Chara wouldn't have done anything but calm habs fan a little.  The way the NHL handled that incident allowed for a lot of ppl to be ticked off... most strongly in Montreal, but not limited to Montreal (eg : Sedin, Thornton, etc.)

    We don't see it the same way as you do, I know that.  But neither of us can judge intent.  There are million of examples where you can take advantage of a legal action to hurt somebody.  No one will ever know what were Chara's intents.  You can't say he didn't, we can't say he did...

    The problem is : HE CAN !  On the ice, he had the right to do that, as far as the NHL is concerned.  We have a problem with that (I do anyway), 'cause anywhere else on our northern territory aside from the ice of the Bell Center, no one would get away with such consequences.  Punch someone in the face and you'll end up in a very different situation if that punch killed him or if it broke his nose. 

    But "That's hockey", right ?  Well, we're sick of that lame excuse.  Hockey is what we want it to be. 

    Deafness from the NHL causes us to yell louder. 

    And as for your non-stopping "you guys think you're special", it probably has something to do with how we believe that what we have to say is worth - at least - a decent hearing.  And stupid answers like we got from the NHL will not satisfy anyone here.  If you don't think highly enough of yourself to fight for what you believe in, you oughta wonder who's got the problem... the "special ppl" or the "silent majority".  If "special ppl" can do something to save your little Tyler Seguin from unnecessary injuries that almost ended Bergeron's carrier and that might have ended Savard's, then let them do it. 

    It would be a much better playoff run with Savard and Pacio still playing.  They went down for nothing.


     
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    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    I've read most of your posts Wedgy.  I like the fact that you express yourself candidly and politely.
    Your logic though, is seriously flawed.  The assertion you're part of a group carrying the torch of a higher calling(potentially saving Bruins), is just plain delusional.
    The sport has some issues.  Reasonable people know that.  Attempting to point them out using this example though, just doesn't make sense.
     
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    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    In Response to Re: Thoughts from Montreal:
    [QUOTE]I've read most of your posts Wedgy.  I like the fact that you express yourself candidly and politely. Your logic though, is seriously flawed.  The assertion you're part of a group carrying the torch of a higher calling(potentially saving Bruins), is just plain delusional. The sport has some issues.  Reasonable people know that.  Attempting to point them out using this example though, just doesn't make sense.
    Posted by stevegm[/QUOTE]

    hahaha... By definition, if I'm delusional, there's no way for me to know that I am, and you're wasting your time trying to convince me that I'm wrong.

    Then it shall be a fight between Delusion and Denial. I still like the fact that there's more hope in my delusions than there is in your denial. 

     

     
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    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    In Response to Re: Thoughts from Montreal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Thoughts from Montreal : hahaha... By definition, if I'm delusional, there's no way for me to know that I am, and you're wasting your time trying to convince me that I'm wrong. Then it shall be a fight between Delusion and Denial. I still like the fact that there's more hope in my delusions than there is in your denial.   
    Posted by Wedgy-Dunlop[/QUOTE]

    Glad I didn't assume you were open minded too. 
    If me or anyone else is "wasting your time trying to convince me I'm wrong"..........then what are you doing here....what's your purpose?
    This is a forum to discuss/debate issues.
     
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    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    In Response to Re: Thoughts from Montreal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Thoughts from Montreal : hahaha... By definition, if I'm delusional, there's no way for me to know that I am, and you're wasting your time trying to convince me that I'm wrong. Then it shall be a fight between Delusion and Denial. I still like the fact that there's more hope in my delusions than there is in your denial.   
    Posted by Wedgy-Dunlop[/QUOTE]

    He said your logic is delusional btw.  Your arguments albeit morally correct as the NHL needs to redefine the rules, are self serving.  The cry for injustice was only after one of the Montreal Canadien players was hurt.  My friend that is the flaw in your logic.  If you do not view that then you are delusional.  The Montreal police being brought into this case and only this case is also self serving.  

     
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    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    In Response to Re: Thoughts from Montreal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Thoughts from Montreal : Glad I didn't assume you were open minded too.  If me or anyone else is "wasting your time trying to convince me I'm wrong"..........then what are you doing here....what's your purpose? This is a forum to discuss/debate issues.
    Posted by stevegm[/QUOTE]

    I was being sarcastic about you saying I'm delusional.  I've read everything that's been said with respect and attention.  I also tried to stay polite despite some of the replies I've received. 

    My purpose ?  Some kind of impossible agreement, maybe... To give you some insight on what's going on here, beyond the whinning frogs hypothesis.  And I'm also trying to gain some insight on your position in this matter.

    Maybe I'm trying to cast some doubts in one or two of you, 'cause I think it could be useful. 

    And in the end, if nothing I said made a difference for no one, I'll still have learned that I'm not that good at what I've been trying to do.  Maybe I'll try something else next time.  But I like debates, so all this was still kind of fun.

    And if I didn't change my opinion yet, it's not that I haven't been listening... I just haven't heard any suggestions that would lead to something better than what Montreal and the Canadiens organization are trying to do. 

    But because it's one of our players, because there are emotions involved, because we're habs fans and because of this and that, you're being dismissive of what we're trying to do, oversimplifying our actions to "whinners call 911, send Chara to jail"

    I just don't agree with your suggestions of status quo.  We've been getting sickier by the year of players getting hurt like they do.  We're not going to let go... not before someone convince us that what we're doing is not the right thing to do.  You're mostly right when pointing the finger at the motivations that lead and created such a stir in Montreal.  But I think you're wrong thinking those are good enough reasons to stop.  Among all the "why"s there's is another "why" which is worth fighting for... Do something before it's too late. 

    The only way you'll convince any of us to stop is on that simple point : "Why should we not do something to avoid a man's death in the rink ?"  Let go of the other motives, 'cause even when you'll have proven your point, we'll still be going forward.

    As Ian Laperriere said... maybe it's a good thing for the NHL that it happened in Montreal.



     
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    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    In Response to Re: Thoughts from Montreal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Thoughts from Montreal : I was being sarcastic about you saying I'm delusional.  I've read everything that's been said with respect and attention.  I also tried to stay polite despite some of the replies I've received.  My purpose ?  Some kind of impossible agreement, maybe... To give you some insight on what's going on here, beyond the whinning frogs hypothesis.  And I'm also trying to gain some insight on your position in this matter. Maybe I'm trying to cast some doubts in one or two of you, 'cause I think it could be useful.  And in the end, if nothing I said made a difference for no one, I'll still have learned that I'm not that good at what I've been trying to do.  Maybe I'll try something else next time.  But I like debates, so all this was still kind of fun. And if I didn't change my opinion yet, it's not that I haven't been listening... I just haven't heard any suggestions that would lead to something better than what Montreal and the Canadiens organization are trying to do.  But because it's one of our players, because there are emotions involved, because we're habs fans and because of this and that, you're being dismissive of what we're trying to do, oversimplifying our actions to "whinners call 911, send Chara to jail" I just don't agree with your suggestions of status quo .  We've been getting sickier by the year of players getting hurt like they do.  We're not going to let go... not before someone convince us that what we're doing is not the right thing to do.  You're mostly right when pointing the finger at the motivations that lead and created such a stir in Montreal.  But I think you're wrong thinking those are good enough reasons to stop.  Among all the "why"s there's is another "why" which is worth fighting for... Do something before it's too late.  The only way you'll convince any of us to stop is on that simple point : "Why should we not do something to avoid a man's death in the rink ?"  Let go of the other motives, 'cause even when you'll have proven your point, we'll still be going forward. As Ian Laperriere said... maybe it's a good thing for the NHL that it happened in Montreal.
    Posted by Wedgy-Dunlop[/QUOTE]

    Since everyone in Montreal is so worried about player health, then  tell me, have the Bell Centre owners fixed their building yet so that its safe to play hockey in? Cause the way you people are carrying on, I wouldve expected it to be done by now.
    Or even started.
     
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    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    In Response to Re: Thoughts from Montreal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Thoughts from Montreal : He said your logic is delusional btw.  Your arguments albeit morally correct as the NHL needs to redefine the rules, are self serving.  The cry for injustice was only after one of the Montreal Canadien players was hurt.  My friend that is the flaw in your logic.  If you do not view that then you are delusional.  The Montreal police being brought into this case and only this case is also self serving.  
    Posted by islamorada[/QUOTE]

    I never said there wasn't a self serving purpose.  Of course it came after a Montreal player got hurt.  It's not a flaw, it's fuel.  And if there is only self serving purposes in there, than don't worry, no one else will follow.  But I don't think it's limited to self serving purposes.  And I also think a lot of ppl/players/etc will find an opportunity to join the parade for their own self serving purposes.  And if a majority find their self serving purposes in what's going on, then a self serving purpose will have served a greater good.

    It's not a flaw.  It's taken into account.  The flaw in your logic is thinking that self serving purposes can't profit others and shouldn't be followed.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    Wedgy, I just hope that you understand that between the timing of this outcry and the tone of the outcry, it is impossible for many of us to see it as a principled, sincere attempt to improve the game.  Rather it seems like a reactionary response from the favorite son of NHL franchises, just because there is an ugly taste in your mouth; an ugly taste that many other franchises have already experienced, including Boston.

    Maybe I am quick to judge, but a lot of the Montreal rhetoric has been pretentious and arrogant, in my opinion.  Your fans seem to be suddenly staking out the moral high ground and trying to 'educate' other fans over issues that have been around for a long time.  Those of us that watch Chara play every night simply don't believe that his intent was to maim Max P., and without intent, what you have is a minor penalty.

    The calls for criminal charges lend a lot of support to the theory that this is not really about improving the game, but rather about gaining a measure of revenge for a disgruntled fan base.  Bring this issue up at the end of the season, or when it happens to a player outside of Montreal and I think you will get a much more serious, thoughful reaction from fans here.
     
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    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    Perhaps some clarification is needed, Wedgy.  You refer to how change is needed, but you don't specify what exactly it is that needs to be changed.

    So what is it that needs to be changed, and how is what is going on going to cause change?

    Oh and as for cultural inertia - the point you seem to be missing is that it isn't laziness that has lead to a lack of response, it is a conscious decision that no response is needed.
     
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    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    In Response to Re: Thoughts from Montreal:
    [QUOTE]Wedgy, I just hope that you understand that between the timing of this outcry and the tone of the outcry, it is impossible for many of us to see it as a principled, sincere attempt to improve the game.  Rather it seems like a reactionary response from the favorite son of NHL franchises, just because there is an ugly taste in your mouth; an ugly taste that many other franchises have already experienced, including Boston. Maybe I am quick to judge, but a lot of the Montreal rhetoric has been pretentious and arrogant, in my opinion.  Your fans seem to be suddenly staking out the moral high ground and trying to 'educate' other fans over issues that have been around for a long time.  Those of us that watch Chara play every night simply don't believe that his intent was to maim Max P., and without intent, what you have is a minor penalty. The calls for criminal charges lend a lot of support to the theory that this is not really about improving the game, but rather about gaining a measure of revenge for a disgruntled fan base.  Bring this issue up at the end of the season, or when it happens to a player outside of Montreal and I think you will get a much more serious, thoughful reaction from fans here.
    Posted by Fletcher1[/QUOTE]


    I understand that.  I don't deny that.  Vengeance is part of it, and more for some than others.  But in the middle of it, there's more than simple vengeance. And it might sound sudden to outsiders, but we just took a long standing discussion outside our borders after this incident. 

    And as for arrogance, we're pretty much head to head.
     
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    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    Wedge,Thought u split for good last night. Good job man got 66 different post out of your start. most of the hab fans are no fun but you got people spouting off. Hey you don't want everyone to agree with you.
    So is all the hab fans going to jump in the st lawrence yet?? 
      still think if Larry robinson or someone like him was playing for the habs you all would be singing a different tune
     
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    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    In Response to Re: Thoughts from Montreal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Thoughts from Montreal : I was being sarcastic about you saying I'm delusional.  I've read everything that's been said with respect and attention.  I also tried to stay polite despite some of the replies I've received.  My purpose ?  Some kind of impossible agreement, maybe... To give you some insight on what's going on here, beyond the whinning frogs hypothesis.  And I'm also trying to gain some insight on your position in this matter. Maybe I'm trying to cast some doubts in one or two of you, 'cause I think it could be useful.  And in the end, if nothing I said made a difference for no one, I'll still have learned that I'm not that good at what I've been trying to do.  Maybe I'll try something else next time.  But I like debates, so all this was still kind of fun. And if I didn't change my opinion yet, it's not that I haven't been listening... I just haven't heard any suggestions that would lead to something better than what Montreal and the Canadiens organization are trying to do.  But because it's one of our players, because there are emotions involved, because we're habs fans and because of this and that, you're being dismissive of what we're trying to do, oversimplifying our actions to "whinners call 911, send Chara to jail" I just don't agree with your suggestions of status quo .  We've been getting sickier by the year of players getting hurt like they do.  We're not going to let go... not before someone convince us that what we're doing is not the right thing to do.  You're mostly right when pointing the finger at the motivations that lead and created such a stir in Montreal.  But I think you're wrong thinking those are good enough reasons to stop.  Among all the "why"s there's is another "why" which is worth fighting for... Do something before it's too late.  The only way you'll convince any of us to stop is on that simple point : "Why should we not do something to avoid a man's death in the rink ?"  Let go of the other motives, 'cause even when you'll have proven your point, we'll still be going forward. As Ian Laperriere said... maybe it's a good thing for the NHL that it happened in Montreal.
    Posted by Wedgy-Dunlop[/QUOTE]


    Couple things Wedgy.  If your purpose is to influence....change people's minds, you're absolutely screwed if you start by saying you're thoughts are immoveable. 
    You make reference to my thoughts regarding the "status quo".  Where did that come from?
     Rather than "assume' my thoughts, you can read my position on another thread here(Hal Gill Hit On...) if you choose.  If not, fine, just don't make things up as you go.
    You haven't heard any "whining frogs" bs from me, and I have never wrote anything about "over simplifying" your actions or being "dismissive".
    If you're going to play on a public forum...and address your thoughts to an individual, please edit the perceived generalities.
    Although we probably agree on the need to make hockey safer, we seem to disagree on the method of changing it, and we certainly disagree with the hypocritical position of "Montreal and the Canadians organization".
    -If you, and the community, and the organization are so passionate about player safety..why are you only speaking up now?  Players have been injured more seriously than Pacioretty.  The answer is simple, but it may pain you.  You're not passionate about player safety, you're only passionate about your own self interests.  That doesn't make you terrible, it merely puts you in about the same boat as everyone else.  The fact that you expect people to accept the sincerity of your pompous hollow claim is annoying to any free thinker, and ultimately makes you a fraud.
    -As a Canadian, I'm appalled by the fact that anyone would support tax dollars being wasted on a criminal investigation, a child could see has no chance of  conviction.
    -I'm appalled that any human being would attempt to justify...as logical....the idea of tieing up 911 lines to protest a hockey call.
    -I'm appalled that a company like Air Canada would be dumb enough to comment on something they know so little about.
    -I'm appalled that a representative of the government of my country could get so caught up in the hysteria of the moment, that they'd suggest "suspensions for any serious injury".  How incredibly stupid is that?
     This idiocy isn't coming from Vancouver or Halifax, or New York or L.A.  It's all coming from Montreal...and don't insult me by insinuating it's the result of passion.
    Many, many, many people are  "getting sicker by the year of players getting hurt like they do".  If you think that philosophy only exists in the Montreal market...you and your community really aren't very self aware.
    The first step to sanely institute change, is picking the right examples from which to make judements.  The NHL has done that, and those that agree with you, again....miss the point.  A lot of what used to be legal isn't anymore.  Blindside shots, targeting the head, those things are dealt with severely now...and that's good.  Anyone watching the Chara/Pacioretty sequence can see this is merely the consequence of the stanchion.  Trying to make the point that Chara deliberately tried to knock Pacioretty into the stanchion is ridiculous.....  It was a completely benign play with unfortunate circumstances.
    It has to be ruled that way.  
    In the meantime, much has to be done to protect the players from themselves.  It's a tough, tough job.  It's nothing short of a miracle that only one player has ever been killed while playing in the NHL.  Players are much faster and stronger then they used to be.  Much better conditioned.  They shoot harder, and have much better equipment.  I think the whole culture needs to change, and that doesn't happen overnight.  Rules need to be re thought.  Players have to be more respectful, and right away, stanchions have to be dealt with.  It's not that it's technically that difficult to end the potential of anyone whacking them.  Suspensions will, and have helped curb some of the needless violence.  Nothing I'm reading out of the Montreal market suggests anything constructive is being voiced.  Only childish, self serving posturing. 
    Despite anything good that can be instituted, hockey is, and always will be a potentially lethal game.
    The key is differentiating between those area's that can be improved upon, and those that merely incite and perpetuate hysteria.
    There comes a time when you need to take your team hat off, and speak like a logical, reasonably well informed citizen.
    Your turn Wedgy.

    ps  I cant' believe you used Ian Lapperierre's name in a column about gratuitous violence in hockey.
     
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    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    Ok, I lose.  Good job. 
     
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    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    In Response to Re: Thoughts from Montreal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Thoughts from Montreal : Couple things Wedgy.  If your purpose is to influence....change people's minds, you're absolutely screwed if you start by saying you're thoughts are immoveable.  You make reference to my thoughts regarding the "status quo".  Where did that come from?  Rather than "assume' my thoughts, you can read my position on another thread here(Hal Gill Hit On...) if you choose.  If not, fine, just don't make things up as you go. You haven't heard any "whining frogs" bs from me, and I have never wrote anything about "over simplifying" your actions or being "dismissive". If you're going to play on a public forum...and address your thoughts to an individual, please edit the perceived generalities. Although we probably agree on the need to make hockey safer, we seem to disagree on the method of changing it, and we certainly disagree with the hypocritical position of "Montreal and the Canadians organization". -If you, and the community, and the organization are so passionate about player safety..why are you only speaking up now?  Players have been injured more seriously than Pacioretty.  The answer is simple, but it may pain you.  You're not passionate about player safety, you're only passionate about your own self interests.  That doesn't make you terrible, it merely puts you in about the same boat as everyone else.  The fact that you expect people to accept the sincerity of your pompous hollow claim is annoying to any free thinker, and ultimately makes you a fraud. -As a Canadian, I'm appalled by the fact that anyone would support tax dollars being wasted on a criminal investigation, a child could see has no chance of  conviction. -I'm appalled that any human being would attempt to justify...as logical....the idea of tieing up 911 lines to protest a hockey call. -I'm appalled that a company like Air Canada would be dumb enough to comment on something they know so little about. -I'm appalled that a representative of the government of my country could get so caught up in the hysteria of the moment, that they'd suggest "suspensions for any serious injury".  How incredibly stupid is that?  This idiocy isn't coming from Vancouver or Halifax, or New York or L.A.  It's all coming from Montreal...and don't insult me by insinuating it's the result of passion. Many, many, many people are  "getting sicker by the year of players getting hurt like they do".  If you think that philosophy only exists in the Montreal market...you and your community really aren't very self aware. The first step to sanely institute change, is picking the right examples from which to make judements.  The NHL has done that, and those that agree with you, again....miss the point.  A lot of what used to be legal isn't anymore.  Blindside shots, targeting the head, those things are dealt with severely now...and that's good.  Anyone watching the Chara/Pacioretty sequence can see this is merely the consequence of the stanchion.  Trying to make the point that Chara deliberately tried to knock Pacioretty into the stanchion is ridiculous.....  It was a completely benign play with unfortunate circumstances. It has to be ruled that way.   In the meantime, much has to be done to protect the players from themselves.  It's a tough, tough job.  It's nothing short of a miracle that only one player has ever been killed while playing in the NHL.  Players are much faster and stronger then they used to be.  Much better conditioned.  They shoot harder, and have much better equipment.  I think the whole culture needs to change, and that doesn't happen overnight.  Rules need to be re thought.  Players have to be more respectful, and right away, stanchions have to be dealt with.  It's not that it's technically that difficult to end the potential of anyone whacking them.  Suspensions will, and have helped curb some of the needless violence.  Nothing I'm reading out of the Montreal market suggests anything constructive is being voiced.  Only childish, self serving posturing.  Despite anything good that can be instituted, hockey is, and always will be a potentially lethal game. The key is differentiating between those area's that can be improved upon, and those that merely incite and perpetuate hysteria. There comes a time when you need to take your team hat off, and speak like a logical, reasonably well informed citizen. Your turn Wedgy. ps  I cant' believe you used Ian Lapperierre's name in a column about gratuitous violence in hockey.
    Posted by stevegm[/QUOTE]

    Wow, well thought out post. Best one i've read yet on this subject and that includes any sportswriter from any sporting site and newspaper.Kudos.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    Hey Wedge, I too agree you came onto this board and made an argument.  If there were more Canadien fans like you and especially Kennedy then the discussions for change and modification of the rules would be more productive and level headed.  BTW I my mother in law is a French Canadian American.  I think Montreal is a great city, been there many times.  Nonetheless, if your team does win the Stanley Cup, please don't burn down the city!
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    In Response to Re: Thoughts from Montreal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Thoughts from Montreal : I understand that.  I don't deny that.  Vengeance is part of it, and more for some than others.  But in the middle of it, there's more than simple vengeance. And it might sound sudden to outsiders, but we just took a long standing discussion outside our borders after this incident.  And as for arrogance, we're pretty much head to head.
    Posted by Wedgy-Dunlop[/QUOTE]

    I appreciate your patience here and the fact that you are willing to read and respond to many posters.

    But I read a key sentence in your response above and I think it is exactly what I am talking about when I refer to the arrogance and pretention behind the claims from Montreal:

    "it might sound sudden to outsiders, but we just took a long standing discussion outside our borders after this incident."


    The unmistakable implication here is that:
    1. You think Montreal has been having a discussion about player safety that nobody else is aware of.
    2. The people of Montreal decided to enlighten the rest of N. America with your discussion, after this incident.

    When in fact the reality is that the people of Montreal are finally getting a taste of what many other hockey fans have already dealt with and understand.  And instead of having the basic self-awareness to realize how late they are to the 'player safety crisis' party, they show up with hyterical demands for criminal and government action over a problem that everyone else already knew existed.

    Some of the other posters are right, your motives may be well intentioned, but the self-awareness of Montreal within the 30 team NHL universe is woefully lacking.  The rhetoric so far from Montreal has seemed reactionary, predictable, and self-serving to those outside of Quebec, yet you are acting like it is some kind of revelation to the hockey world.  What's more, is that the same rhetotic is delivered in a self-righteous, smug manner, so it's hard to really give it fair consideration.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from maver23. Show maver23's posts

    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    Hey Wedgy, ive lost all respect for all the "yahoos" from montreal. man up im so sick of all of the fans crying after hockey games. i hope you were able to hear mike felger own you all yesterday.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wedgy-Dunlop. Show Wedgy-Dunlop's posts

    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    @Tarpouch :

    Yeah, I couldn't help but come back and have a look at what you guys were writing.  So I kept on yappin'.  I didn't think this discussion would have lasted that long. 

    And I know we would be singing a different tune if things were the other way around... but maybe not quite like you imagine.  We're getting pretty sick, in general, of players getting hurt.  It's getting ridiculous.  But anyways, I don't see the point of leading the discussion in that direction, 'cause even if you're right, and you probably are for the most part, it would only lead to one of us two being right, and I don't really care about that.  You can be right on that one if you want. 


    @DrCC :

    Clarification on changes... I don't know, man.  I'm not an expert.  I have some ideas, but they're probably not worth mentioning.  I'm just saying that nothing is being done, and I'm groing tired of players concussions, risking their lives and careers, and all that.  NHL is losing their control on violence in the rink.  They're failing big time at their duty to protect their players.  And how they handled the Chara-Pacioretty case, although by the book, was another step in the wrong direction.  What they should have done ?  It's not my place to tell them, but hell, do something !  Make a stand.  Tell the owners and the fans that this problem needs to be dealt with and will be.  Do a round table with ppl who'll have better ideas than me and you.  Don't just stand there, flip the pages of your rule booklet, and come to the conclusion that nothing needs to be done about it.  That's not leadership.  It's playing stupid.  And when stupid ppl carry a responsibility over human beings' security, those human beings are in danger.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wedgy-Dunlop. Show Wedgy-Dunlop's posts

    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    @SteveGM

    I don't think my thoughts are immoveable, but I could be wrong.  I'm pretty open minded in general, but I can be hard headed.  Sorry I said things in a reply to your post which seemed to be directed personnaly to you... but I've been replying left and right and some of it was directed to a more "general" you/others, etc. 

    Maybe we disagree on the method of changing things, I don't know.  Even if I had the greatest ideas, who would they serve, right ?  I'm no expert. 

    Hypocrites, hey ?  Maybe... I'd have to think that over.  It's probably at least partly right if you're saying it.  I don't think it's fair to put everything in the bag of hypocrisy, but I can't stop you from doing that.  At least, I know our hypocrisy on that matter won't kill anyone on or off the ice.  And you asked why now... You know the answer to that question.  Because Pacioretty got hurt, jee !  Pacioretty caused it to be now.

    I'm passionnate about my own self interests.  Can't talk for others, but yeah, you're right on that one.  I'm also concerned about players safety, for a lot of reasons, including self interests.  And I don't expect anyone to accept anything I say, I'm just saying things whether they are accepted or not.  That people would agree might be a bonus.

    I'm a fraud ?  ... ok !?  Let's cut this one short.

    And there's one thing you guys need to realize.  Our legal system is different from yours and you can't think of the recent legal actions that took place here, as being equivalent to what it would have been like if it took place in the States.  Our system is not as "adversarial" as yours and the Crown (I think you call them district attorneys) doesn't limit its actions to convicting people.  Anyways, I don't mean to go into details, but I just wanted to point out that part of your reaction to this "criminal investigation" is due to how you look at this from a US legal system perspective, which is quite different. 

    It was a funny thing to call the 911... not very responsible, but still funny.  Maybe it helped, maybe it didn't.  I can't tell.  Didn't hear of any bad consequences from that. 

    Air Canada is free to say what they want to say.  They chose to join in.  I don't blame them.  Via Rail (rail road company) did the same today.  McDonald silently removed its name from hockey in Canada last summer. 

    I welcome the Government initiative.  Hell, they're watching hockey too, you know ?  And since the little ppl like you and me aren't heard on the matter, well I like the idea of the media, NHL players, Geoff Molson, Air Canada, Via Rail, Criminal Court and Government teaming up on this.  Sounds more promising to me than me calling up a phone line.

    I know it's coming from Montreal, and not from anywhere else.  The worst thing is, I'm pretty proud of them.  lol... I'm sure you're pulling your hairs out, but yeah, I'd be ashamed if nothing happened...

    I don't recall saying anything about us being the first ones to notice and talk about the problem.  And I don't see much improvement in terms of injury prevention that resulted from the NHL's actions.  Legal hits becoming illegal... I don't know if that's good, do you ?  It all looks reassuring, but there are no results.  Concussions are more frequent this year than ever.  So maybe they don't know what they're doing, right ?  I mean, "maybe" !?

    "Merely the consequence of the stanchion", like stanchions go out and hit players.. Trying to make the point that Chara didn't deliberately try to hurt Pacioretty is just as ridiculous... unless you read minds.  I still have a hard time understanding how you can call this "benign", but then again, guns are benign objects down where you live, so I can see how "benign" a hockey check might look to you. 

    It doesn't "have" to be ruled that way.  I don't know why you say that... Unless "rules are rules" to you and "rules are guides" to me... It might contribute to me and you not understanding each other.

    As for your constructive suggestions, I agree with you.  Especially with the culture part.  And I would add that indifference and voyeurism over dirty plays won't help... Disgust might help, but anyways. 

    "Only childish, self serving posturing"... hahaha, are you angry ?  Was that necessary ?

    I'll do my best to be a logical, reasonable, well informed citizen.  But I'll do that with my hat on... sorry but it's stuck there.  As for yourself, be polite.






     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wedgy-Dunlop. Show Wedgy-Dunlop's posts

    Re: Thoughts from Montreal

    @Islamorada

    Thanks for the comment.  If we win the Stanley Cup, Montreal will be the best place to be during that night.  You should come down and party.

    @Fletcher1

    You're mistaking on your "unmistakable implication".  Maybe you should just read that we suddenly turned around and started to try and speak english (I'm french) and join a discussion that has also been going on on your side. 

    We're not trying to enlighten the rest of N. America, we're trying to force the NHL to take actions, and trying to make a clear "we've had enough of that BS".  It's not arrogance, it's called "giving it a shot".  You don't have to join in.  I think you should, but you go and pick your side.  And if we don't agree with each others, it doen't really matter... you guys go and create your own thing to help with this matter that also affected some of your players, and badly so. 

    I don't think you guys realize how what you're doing ('cause you're actually doing something here, you're not being passive, you're actively taking a stand against us) will more than likely only help the NHL feel comfortable with it's lack of ethics. 

    I don't mind if you don't agree... think whatever you want.  My wish would be that you don't join us directly, 'cause you're our rivals, right ?  And being understanding friends would ruin our relationship as rivals.  So I hope you'll never like us.  But I wish you'd do something like creating a third side that would sound like : "We hate Montreal and their ways of dealing with things.  We hope to crush them in the playoff run.  We think they're a bunch of whinning frogs.  We're pretty happy with the fact that Chara hasn't been suspended.  But we support what Geoff Molson is trying to do, and we hope Chiarelli and other owners join in on protecting our players, behind closed doors, so we all can go back to hating each other and having fun at the rink."

    I don't see how you've come about to "deal with" and "understand" these issues, like you said.  If that's the case, maybe it's hopeless to think that you're in a position to change anything.  We're not late on the crisis... Jeez, hockey is like a religion here.  Don't be condescending.

    I don't have much power on how ppl outside Quebec interpret all the things that have been going on.  It's interpretation... we all do that.  What can I say ? 

    All I know is that most of the hockey world outside Quebec have only been looking at us, judging, interpreting, ridiculing... Probably to the benefit of your own self serving purposes, 'cause I don't see what else it would serve.  Or maybe you guys feel like you should take care of our education on how to handle these matters.  But that's not arrogance, right ?  That's being grown ups !  But tell me, what have you done that is so great for hockey's safety ?  What are you doing that we should be following and why ? 

    The fact is, a movement has been created, and the choice you're making is to laugh and to ridicule.  But that's called acting like adults, right ?  Savard is out and you almost lost Bergeron.  Why don't you guys go out saying "We don't want to be part of what the Habs are doing.  But we'll go in there as well for Savvy and Bergy, and our other players."



     
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