1. You have chosen to ignore posts from misterpaulo. Show misterpaulo's posts

    Trade Lineage

    posted at 2/15/2012 11:01 AM EST

    With the recent Nash trade romours, we are often reminded of the Joe Thornton trade and how the Bruins basically got fleeced in this deal.  On the surface, it was a bad move and if a mulligan was provided I bet MOC would have cashed it in and tried again (after he sobered up). 

    I didn't have a problem with trading Big Joe but didn't like the return.  Anyway.....time has passed and Sturm, Stuart and Primeau were exchanged for other pieces.  I did a little investigating and IMO the trade actually looks better today than it did 7 years ago.

    Stuart = Andrew Ference
    Sturm = futures (basically nothing but gave the Bruins some solid top 6 production for 5 seasons - 1 shortened season due to injury)
    Primeau = Kobesew (here is where things get interesting).  Kobesew is moved for Craig Weller, Minnys 2nd rounder (Alex Khokhlachev) in 2011 and Alex Fallstrom.  Weller, Bitz and a 2nd to FLA for Seids and Bartowksi.

    Summary:  Thornton, Bitz and Weller = Seids, Ference, Bartowski, Fallstrom, Khokhlachev and 4 solid years from Sturm.  After some reflection and considering the Bruins hosited the the Stanley Cup only 8 months ago, I wouldn't change a thing.
     

  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from puckhog9966. Show puckhog9966's posts

    Re: Trade Lineage

    posted at 2/15/2012 11:09 AM EST

    In Response to Trade Lineage:
    With the recent Nash trade romours, we are often reminded of the Joe Thornton trade and how the Bruins basically got fleeced in this deal.  On the surface, it was a bad move and if a mulligan was provided I bet MOC would have cashed it in and tried again (after he sobered up).  I didn't have a problem with trading Big Joe but didn't like the return.  Anyway.....time has passed and Sturm, Stuart and Primeau were exchanged for other pieces.  I did a little investigating and IMO the trade actually looks better today than it did 7 years ago. Stuart = Andrew Ference Sturm = futures (basically nothing but gave the Bruins some solid top 6 production for 5 seasons - 1 shortened season due to injury) Primeau = Kobesew (here is where things get interesting).  Kobesew is moved for Craig Weller, Minnys 2nd rounder (Alex Khokhlachev) in 2011 and Alex Fallstrom.  Weller, Bitz and a 2nd to FLA for Seids and Bartowksi. Summary:  Thornton, Bitz and Weller = Seids, Ference, Bartowski, Fallstrom, Khokhlachev and 4 solid years from Sturm.  After some reflection and considering the Bruins hosited the the Stanley Cup only 8 months ago, I wouldn't change a thing.
    Posted by misterpaulo


    Ohh and the real trade, the removal of his salary allowed the Bruins to sign Chara that following summer. So the real trade was Thortons salary for Chara .. I'll take that trade, thanks.
     

  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from misterpaulo. Show misterpaulo's posts

    Re: Trade Lineage

    posted at 2/15/2012 11:21 AM EST

    Didn't even think of that.  Great point.
     

  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Trade Lineage

    posted at 2/15/2012 11:35 AM EST

    But just because the Bruins (not necessarily MOC) made some really good moves with the parts acquired in the Thornton deal, later on, does not change my opinion about the original trade.  So some other GMs salvaged the deal by bringing in some good players -- that has nothing to do with MOC.

    The thing that upset me so much about that deal was hearing other GMs around the league coming out afterwards and saying that they had no idea Thornton was on the market.  It always seemed to me that MOC took the first deal he could find instead of developing a bidding war for Thornton who would have been a very, very hot commodity around the league.  See Nash right now.  You know that Blue Jackets have about a dozen offers on the table.  It was my impression that that never happened with Thornton.
     

  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from misterpaulo. Show misterpaulo's posts

    Re: Trade Lineage

    posted at 2/15/2012 11:48 AM EST

    Agreed.  At the time of the deal I was sick to my stomach.  I asked myself, is there something about the three players the B's got back that I was missing.

    Not sure the exact story but I heard a rumour that Sinden lost his marbles that night in New Jersey (after Thornton got abused in the faceoff circle and the game is lost on a OT one timer right off the faceoff).  Sinden basically tells MOC to get rid of him by the morning.  Harry had little patience over the years (see Tom Fergus trade, Joe Juneau yodeling comments) and this played a huge role in MOC acting like he did.  If this is true, Harry basically put MOC in job preservation mode.
     

  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from puckhog9966. Show puckhog9966's posts

    Re: Trade Lineage

    posted at 2/15/2012 11:55 AM EST

    Fletcher I agree with you, but there is no saying what MOC was planning on doing with the Thorton salary that coming summer, was it the Bruins as an organization going after Chara or was it Chia who made that call. Seeing as Chia wasnt even really the Bruins GM at the time my guess is that that Moc moved Thortons salary to target Chara that summer and he specificaly didnt get much of a return on purpose so he would have the 7mil. available under the cap to get him. If the Bruins had gotten say Marleau in return then there is no Chara in Boston at this time.
     

  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from WalkTheLine. Show WalkTheLine's posts

    Re: Trade Lineage

    posted at 2/15/2012 12:15 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Trade Lineage:
    Fletcher I agree with you, but there is no saying what MOC was planning on doing with the Thorton salary that coming summer, was it the Bruins as an organization going after Chara or was it Chia who made that call. Seeing as Chia wasnt even really the Bruins GM at the time my guess is that that Moc moved Thortons salary to target Chara that summer and he specificaly didnt get much of a return on purpose so he would have the 7mil. available under the cap to get him. If the Bruins had gotten say Marleau in return then there is no Chara in Boston at this time.
    Posted by puckhog9966


    O'Connell clearly could have found a much better deal than what he got and he could have done so without taking on huge salary by getting a package that included draft picks. I'm not sure OC was targeting Chara down the road but I'm sure he could have improved on the deal without jeaopardizing his ability to bring in a big FA or two. I don't think the man could think that far ahead.
     

  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from lambda13. Show lambda13's posts

    Re: Trade Lineage

    posted at 2/15/2012 12:27 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Trade Lineage:
    In Response to Trade Lineage : Ohh and the real trade, the removal of his salary allowed the Bruins to sign Chara that following summer. So the real trade was Thortons salary for Chara .. I'll take that trade, thanks.
    Posted by puckhog9966


    As will I.
     

  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from mannyortez3424. Show mannyortez3424's posts

    Re: Trade Lineage

    posted at 2/15/2012 1:14 PM EST

    Good thread, I love looking back at the lineage of a deal...

    Similarly, it is kind of surprising Jeff Gorton didn't get a chance at Bruins GM considering how much he owned the NHL in 2006...

    He traded Razor for Tuukka staight up (unreal).

    He signed Savvy and Chara.

    He claimed Joey McDonald off of waivers (decent goalie).

    And in ONE DRAFT, he drafted Kessel, Marchand, Looch, Yuri Alexandrov, and Andrew Bodnarchuck.

    That's pretty ridiculous...
     

  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from bogie6. Show bogie6's posts

    Re: Trade Lineage

    posted at 2/15/2012 2:04 PM EST

    The last entry on Jeff Gorton is an interesting refresher, and the opening round for Peter Chiarelli. Thankfully Peter has recovered from his Dave Lewis, Chris Versteeg, milan Jurcina [ Lewis insisted] fumbles and evolved a very solid bruins roster, plus some futures The target now is to replace Corvo, or just wait for Hamilton to step in sooner rather than later. In addition, the need for a "sniper" might boost Spooner into a "sooner " spotlight, although Sauve seems to have the skills, but not the physical tools as yet.
     

  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from asmaha. Show asmaha's posts

    Re: Trade Lineage

    posted at 2/15/2012 2:16 PM EST

    There's still fuzziness on the Chiarelli-Gorton situation that off-season. I don't think we'll ever know what was happening behind the scenes, but it was one crazy summer!
     

  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Trade Lineage

    posted at 2/15/2012 4:15 PM EST

    It was still a brutal trade by MOC. Just because Gorton and PC bailed him out after the fact doesn't make that trade any less brutal.
     

  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from puckhog9966. Show puckhog9966's posts

    Re: Trade Lineage

    posted at 2/15/2012 4:22 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Trade Lineage:
    In Response to Re: Trade Lineage : O'Connell clearly could have found a much better deal than what he got and he could have done so without taking on huge salary by getting a package that included draft picks. I'm not sure OC was targeting Chara down the road but I'm sure he could have improved on the deal without jeaopardizing his ability to bring in a big FA or two. I don't think the man could think that far ahead.
    Posted by WalkTheLine



    None of us know for sure, the only thing we can take for certain involving the scenario is that the money that was being spent on Thorton is now being spent on Chara and I personaly think its a better investment.
     

  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Trade Lineage

    posted at 2/15/2012 4:27 PM EST

    Also, in terms if trade lineage nothing can beat the return on Barry Pederson

    Boston sends away Barry Pederson

    Vancouver gives the Bruins Neely and a first-rounder

    First rounder used to get Glenn Wesley

    7 years later Boston trades Wesley to the Hartford Whalers in 1994 for three first round picks: 1995 (Kyle McLaren), 1996 (Johnathan Aitken) and 1997 (Sergei Samsonov


    Bruins trade McLaren with their 2004 fourth rounder (Torrey Mitchell) to the San Jose Sharks in 2003 for Jeff Hackett and Jeff Jillson.

    Smasonov is traded to the Edmonton Oilers for Marty Reasoner     Yan Stastny and the Oilers’ second round pick in ’06 (Mlan Lucic)


    Jeff Jillson is traded for Brad Boyes

    Boyes is traded for Wideman

    Wideman traded with Boston’s 2010 first round pick (Derek Fortbort) to the Panthers for Nathan Horto and Gregory Campbell.

     

  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Trade Lineage

    posted at 2/15/2012 4:41 PM EST

    It's clear enough that they saw the trade as:

    -addition by subtraction
    -not a rebuild (i.e. - no prospects or picks - all three players were veterans with at least four or five years in.  Only Stuart could be considered a player with further potential given his point/game play in junior and high draft position.  He was still young enough for a D to have more room to grow. 
    -not clearing salary (or much salary).

    Bruins had few NHL players - that's the biggest reason they stunk even with Joe, but Joe wasn't helping.  They had few prospects.  They couldn't wait for players to appear.

     

  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Trade Lineage

    posted at 2/15/2012 6:46 PM EST

    Oh the Thornton trade again, well it was the timing, trade deadline deals provide more dividends not late fall.  And to be quite frank, I think Joe was not captain material, that is on MOC! BTW I do think Chara was the object, he was a target of the Bs when he played for the Islanders!  Nonetheless, MOC could have waited to trade Thornton.  Red is correct on the prediction of later trades by PC, no one could tell who was to be acquired.  Now the Pederson trade has to be one of the biggest Bs fleeces next to the Espo/Hodge deals with the Strangers. 
     

  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxFanInIL. Show SoxFanInIL's posts

    Re: Trade Lineage

    posted at 2/15/2012 6:58 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Trade Lineage:
    In Response to Trade Lineage : Ohh and the real trade, the removal of his salary allowed the Bruins to sign Chara that following summer. So the real trade was Thortons salary for Chara .. I'll take that trade, thanks.
    Posted by puckhog9966


    And thats the entire truth.  the players the B's got were secondary.  They took Joe's pile of money and gave it to Chara.

    100% win.
     

  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxFanInIL. Show SoxFanInIL's posts

    Re: Trade Lineage

    posted at 2/15/2012 7:01 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Trade Lineage:
    Agreed.  At the time of the deal I was sick to my stomach.  I asked myself, is there something about the three players the B's got back that I was missing. Not sure the exact story but I heard a rumour that Sinden lost his marbles that night in New Jersey (after Thornton got abused in the faceoff circle and the game is lost on a OT one timer right off the faceoff).  Sinden basically tells MOC to get rid of him by the morning.  Harry had little patience over the years (see Tom Fergus trade, Joe Juneau yodeling comments) and this played a huge role in MOC acting like he did.  If this is true, Harry basically put MOC in job preservation mode.
    Posted by misterpaulo


    I remember that well. Jumbo No was abused in the circle on the game loser, and he spent the night floating in the neutral zone and covering no one as always.  I remember yelling at the TV and wishing they would dump his sorry azz.

    Next day I almost fell out my chair when they did it.  Loved it at the time, but it is true they could have gotten a lot more at the time.