Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    In Response to Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up:
    [QUOTE]Shouldn't be different 306. Are you saying that Lucic saw the slash and made the judgement call that he wouldn't back Savard? Either you have your teammates back or you do not...the Pens had Orpik's back (not that he needed it), the Bruins did not do the same for Savard.
    Posted by Crowls2424[/QUOTE]

    Exactly.  As I said before you don't want your teammates standing there weighing the fairness of this or that.  If you see three Pens going after one Bruin you step in.  It's not a morality test.  React. 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Awry. Show Awry's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    Fighting in hockey is stupid, embarrassing, pointless. It appeals to those to whom violence will always appeal . Having said that, I understand why it happens, when sheer competitiveness meets frustration at top speed. These fights are probably impossible to remove from the game - they've been happening as long as two guys have been racing to achieve the same objective - and I actually don't even mind them.
    However, just as with every other sport in which this happens, the two players involved must be ejected from the game.

    I find it supremely ironic that the mandarins of the game are arguing over what constitutes a 'north-south, blind-sided, meditated hit to the head' - they can't even define what it is let alone legislate against it - to try and address the serious plague of brain injury in the game, while at the same time, players are bare-knuckle punching each other with the sole intention of 'knocking out' each other out. (that's assuming it is as Fluto calls it; 'an honest fight') (as opposed to what kind of fight? A dishonest one?)

    it says to me that the NHL considers some people's brains more valuable than others?

    It says to me that the NHL is trying to be alll things to all people (I took my kid to a hockey game and it turned into violence-porn...)

    It says to me that the NHL doesn't know what it is.



     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    awry... bare nuckle fighting is safer than with big gloves-ask mohammed ali. the "safeness" aside... two people standing in front of each other as willing participants is different than hitting an unaware player.  as for fighting in general... its the players way of policing the game themselves. it limits the number of "cheap shots " that are taken,  and it eliminates the "in your face" celebrations(football/basketball/baseball) that have made those other pro sports almost unwatchable.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Awry. Show Awry's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up



    'adkbeesfan', With the 'instigator' penalty, there is no such thing as 'the players policing the game themselves'. What we have is fighting as a segregated, pointless sideshow, validated and rationalized by those dependant on it as everything but, accomplishing nothing nightly.

    Regardless of whether you agree with that or not,

    The number of 'cheap shots' have not been limited, nor even slowed.
    It's a game of 'cheap shots' now.
    NOBODY is policing ANYTHING

    The NHL game is without direction and constitution when it comes to the 'policing' of the players, whether from within or without.  This rudderlessness tells me that NHL doesn't or can't really 'care' about its' players (aka 'bread and butter') and that the Player's Union is powerless to make them.

    If it's the 'in your face celebrations' that make the Big 3 pro sports almost 'unwatchable', what makes NHL Hockey almost unwatchable? Why do so MANY more people 'unwatch' NHL hockey than those other sports?  Could the  needless, mindless depiction of violence, celebrating the triumph of lack of imagination and mirroring the worst aspects of society be part of it?

     
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from bogie6. Show bogie6's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    NAS these comments that support "goon" pre-made fights are just plain stupid. Fights that emerge from passion, like Ference protecting Lucic are part of hockey, but the evolution of goons to spark a team is inconceivable. Dave Semenko protected Gretsky from cheap shots, and if Sean Thornton could play hockey and eliminate the goon code from his game he could fill a role for Kreji or Savard. You probably note that Bergeron doesn't need "protection" as he is able to take care of himself, and continue to play good hockey. Unfortunately Claude has the clamps on Lucic and Chara, and yet he applauds Horton for fighting Winchester. Claude should let them all play agressively and not even think of using Thornton in a "goon" role.If Thornton is not on the ice, the other goons are also sitting or picking up extra penalties.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    awry... first off how do you explain the fact that players don't taunt each other after goals...or after big hits...or big saves? when they score its a team celebration and then quickly back to play. maybe they should use a softer puck...so nobody gets hurt from a shot. maybe they should eliminate checking...so nobody gets hurt from contact.maybe if someone takes a cheap shot at your teamate...he should get a time out- as milbury said "it's the woosification of the game" 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Awry. Show Awry's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    Fighters should be ejected. However a fight ensues, the players should be ejected. Two 'enforcers' can decide when is the right time to; 'spark their team'; to 'send a message'; to 'keep someone honest' or whatever other tripe-for-a-reason the likes of Milbury feed the game to justify fighting without consequence.
    The enforcers could decide for themselves - Beginning of the game? Middle? End? - how much hockey do they want to play.

    The game is 'woosified' by those without the courage to change it, without the courage to solve problems like men
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    so awry... why do you watch the game...it's obvious your don't like the way it has always been played. the number of hand injuries vastly-overwhelmingly outnumbers the number of fight related head injuries. checking is far more violent act,with far more injuries. better get rid of checking-someone might get hurt!! makes me wonder if you have ever played a full-contact sport before...most athletes that do- relish the contact and pride themselves on their toughness-  and well...fights happen...poll the players- my guess is 95% feel fighting is an integral part of the game ...for the reasons i stated previously.   
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    the reason why hockey is unwatchable  to many, is because 1/2 the country has never seen snow or played hockey- northern markets do great....why play in the south-too few fans and interest-this is why its the 4th most popular pro sport in the US...not for any other reason than exposure 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Awry. Show Awry's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    We're talking about fighting 'adkbeesfan', not about checking or contact, someone getting hurt, injuries, this is not about me, it is about fighting.


     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from I-Like-Hockey. Show I-Like-Hockey's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    In Response to Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up:
    [QUOTE]the reason why hockey is unwatchable  to many, is because 1/2 the country has never seen snow or played hockey- northern markets do great....why play in the south-too few fans and interest-this is why its the 4th most popular pro sport in the US...not for any other reason than exposure 
    Posted by adkbeesfan[/QUOTE]

    Exactly more Pro Football players get hurt every week then hockey players do from fighting over the entire season.

    Basketball 10-12$
    Baseball under 100$
    Soccer lol.. 3$?
    Football a few hundred but equipment is provided by the league.

    Hockey 1000$ in equipment 350-1000$ for most leagues... Also, no ice down south and sparse amounts of Rinks. No wonder less people are into it.

    I think the whole "fighting is wrong and scares people away" was manufactured by ESPN during their fallout with the NHL.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Awry. Show Awry's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    'exposure'? People have been exposed to the game and find it disingenuous. They advertise speed and contact, and agilty and teamwork and then expose 9 year olds to two men fighting to the biggest roar of the night. It's downright disorienting to a kid, this is why many parents don't go near it, it is why many women don't go near it.

    But,
    now i am sucked into the vortex of this argument and its logical conclusion is just around the corner, because, invariably, at this point, you or someone else is about to say; "well i don't care if the game does get popular, i don't care if a bunch chardonnay-sipping, woosified blah-bitty-bla-blahs don't get it..."

    Fighting without ejection from the game is wrong and bad for hockey. It is why hockey is stuck right where it is and where it usually is, just on the edge of credibility, unwilling or afraid to subtract one dollar in order to earn 5 more.

    Hockey doesn't need fighting, fighting needs hockey
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    so what is your actual beef with fighting...bad example for kids?  it's the wrong way to settle disputes? i bet boxing and mma make your skin crawl!! --if pro sports are used for moral guidance we are all in trouble....its entertainment...koombayah my lord koombayah
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Awry. Show Awry's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up


    "Exactly more Pro Football players get hurt every week then hockey players do from fighting over the entire season." - 'I LIke Hockey'

    that is a dumb or disingenuous comaprison, not to mention, manufactured

    How many NFL Football players get hurt fighting each year?

    Is the question you know you should be asking
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    the funny thing is, fighting doesn't even happen but once every few games...awry makes it seem like a bit of hockey gets played around a nite of fights. blown out of proportion completely 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    In Response to Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up:
    [QUOTE]"Exactly more Pro Football players get hurt every week then hockey players do from fighting over the entire season." - 'I LIke Hockey' that is a dumb or disingenuous comaprison, not to mention, manufactured How many NFL Football players get hurt fighting each year? Is the question you know you should be asking
    Posted by Awry[/QUOTE]
    Likely similar to the amount of players hurt in hockey fights each year.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from I-Like-Hockey. Show I-Like-Hockey's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    In Response to Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up:
    [QUOTE]"Exactly more Pro Football players get hurt every week then hockey players do from fighting over the entire season." - 'I LIke Hockey' that is a dumb or disingenuous comaprison, not to mention, manufactured How many NFL Football players get hurt fighting each year? Is the question you know you should be asking
    Posted by Awry[/QUOTE]


    Umm a good amount... You just dont see it. All your posts lead me to believe you never played a contact sport. I happen to have played most of them. In football piles the vicous attacks that happen are much worse than hockey fights.

    Guys like Urlacher breaking fingers on purpose in a pile, the morons who box the back of your head while your on the ground etc. Its just harder to see but even more disgraceful but thats ok to you because you cant see it/dont know its happening.

    Question have you ever had to fight to stick up for yourself in hockey?


    But ohh no the horror my kid might see 2 people fight GASP!
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Awry. Show Awry's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    Fighting pretends or claims to accomplish so much, so many things, when really it is just the desperate - so as to be made pathetic - attempt of two players trying to cling to a job they might not otherwise have, a job which a generation of younger and tougher men are lined up for, fighting each other for no other reason than the entertainment of a buncha weaklings.

    It is beyond barbaric, it is depressing

    and it is the price I pay to watch the best hockey in the world.

    No, Pro Sports are not for moral guidance, they are for more than that. Pro sports are not meant to be a mirror of our reality. Who would pay for that?
    Pro sports are meant to hint at man's ideal.

    Where does fighting fit in Pro sports?

    The answer?

    It doesn't,
    except in hockey
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    it is now clear that awry has never played a contact sport- this conversation is done
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from I-Like-Hockey. Show I-Like-Hockey's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    In Response to Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up:
    [QUOTE]it is now clear that awry has never played a contact sport- this conversation is done
    Posted by adkbeesfan[/QUOTE]


    Dun dun dun and another one gets ignored.(not you beesfan)
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Awry. Show Awry's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    That's one way to get out of an argument, 'adkbeesfan' and that's the second way, 'I-Like hockey'.

    One of you puts his hands over his mouth and the other puts his hands over his ears....Nice talking to ya.

    You two monkeys are outta hands for your eyes


     
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    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    In Response to Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up:
    [QUOTE]NAS- totally disagree with your "stick-up" analysis.  This is a fundamental part of the game, I am surprised to see you advocate this point.  Just the other night, you posted that you were happy that McQuaid for dropped the mitts with Moen, who was jamming on TT.  You applauded McQuaid, but this thread suggests that McQuaid should have let TT handle it.  The tougher guys on the team need to "stick-up", "protect" or "police" the other teams tougher guys when they are taking liberties with your teammates. That's hockey. As much as I like Lucic, he does not do this.  I can think of three examples where teammates have come to his defense: 1) Savard on the boarding by Avery (Bos vs Dal) 2) Thornton on the low-bridge hit by Komisarek 3) Ference on the high hit by Meyer The only time that I can recall Lucic "sticking up" for one of his guys was pre-season when Triston Grant was trying to start with Horton off a faceoff.  I find that disappointing about his game, and would expect a player of his size/strength to play a bigger role with this stuff.  Fletch nailed it, the Pens players "stuck-up" for Orpik, the B's players did nothing for Savard.
    Posted by Crowls2424[/QUOTE]

    I see it a bit differently, Crowls.

    A guy jamming the goalie and a guy reacting to getting slashed aren't in the same category for me.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    In Response to Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up : I see it a bit differently, Crowls. A guy jamming the goalie and a guy reacting to getting slashed aren't in the same category for me.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot[/QUOTE]

    True.  But do you want Lucic doing a feasibility analysis of what is the most fair course of action for each situation, or do you want him to see 3 Penguins swarming his rather fragile star center and snap into action to protect a teammate?? 

    I would prefer the latter.  Who cares if Savard was in the wrong?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    Fletch,
    I agree with you on that, said that the other day, but by the time the pens got there, the refs were there as well..
    Its not like savard took any shots..

    Its a non reaction, to a non incident if you ask me.. I think fans are too on pins an needles to see a response that we are being over critical of nothing..
     
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    Re: Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up

    In Response to Two thoughts, one thread: Fights = momentum and stick 'em up:
    [QUOTE]1.  For you fights can swing momentum and help a team win a game folks:  If that is the case, why on Earth would Thornton go tonight with the team up 3-0?  If the theory held true, wouldn't he be rolling the dice?  If Carkner beat him up (which is basically what happened), might that give Ottawa the juice to start flying and come back into the game?  With the team up a couple of goals (or more), and if the momentum swing theory holds true, doesn't it make more sense for Thornton to decline all comers? 2.  New board virus:  Stick up.  This guy should stick up for that guy.  This guy never sticks up for anyone.  The stick up at the stick up was so stuck up that they mistook the stick rack for the stick 'um.  Huh? Savard gets pushed around, and Lucic gets railed for not sticking up for him.  Someone gets cranked on a fair and legal play and Chara's on a cross for not sticking up for his teammate.  They're pro hockey players, they aren't your girlfriends or wives.  If you're going to be in the corner and you're going to push Brooks Orpik, you had dang well be prepared...and able...to stay safe.  Stick up:  The new PMD. (Side note:  Boy these last two games have been fun!)
    Posted by Not-A-Shot[/QUOTE] Good thread, debatable observations on the first 2, but as far as thornton goes I can't agree on not playing him with 5 min. to go if we have a 2 goal lead. I think this should be a coaching decision based on how he is playing in that particular game. Unfortunately are coach doesn't get that at times. How he handled Thornton in the hab game is inexcusable.
     

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