Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Olsonic. Show Olsonic's posts

    Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

     

    I reverse my longly held position that Edmonton Oilers made a mistake not drafting Tyler Seguin. He's not a better player than Taylor Hall, and I'm starting to think it isn't that close.

    Tyler Seguin can do three things at an extremely high level: He can skate like the wind, he has a fantastic snap shot, and he's lethal on breakaways. But this season it's been increasingly obvious to me what Tyler Seguin cannot do at a high level:

     

    • He has no idea how to enter to offensive zone with the puck. Seguin regularly turns it over at the blueline, either by bumping into teammates along the way, drop-passing it to no-man's land, or simply fumbling it out of his possession at the most harmless looking poke-check.

    • Even if he does enter the zone with the puck, he almost never manages to create opportunities for his teammates beyond a burst of speed to the outside and heaving it across the middle or back to the point when the D over-commits. If the play evolves to anything more complicated than just an outside rush to the net, he's ends up wandering through the offensive zone on the weak-side waiting for a pass that never comes or he's in support on the strong side, stationary, and ends up collecting a pass and chucking it to the point like he’s a robot.

     

    In other words, Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense. He has no feel for his teammates and no creativity when he has the puck in his hands and he has no feel for the play without the puck. The only thing that makes Seguin a top player is the fact that he can absolutely bury the opportunities that he does get, and his speed is world class. When it comes to stick-handling, when it comes to shaking a defender by outsmarting him or working with a line-mate to get into opportunistic spots, he’s hopeless, and you know what? I don’t think it will ever change.

    Look around the NHL, do you see players that really substantially change their games at any point in their career? Sure, guys get stronger. But do you ever see players that were not scorers become snipers, or players that could not stick-handle become great with the puck, or guys that can’t pass become playmakers? No, you really don’t. I don’t think Tyler Seguin has the hockey smarts to be that player that we need him to be. Brad Marchand, David Krejci, Patrice Bergeron, and Milan Lucic have way more hockey sense than Tyler Seguin, and from what I saw, Ryan Spooner does to.

    Does that mean I want Seguin out of here? No, I like him and I think he’s a great asset to the team, but I no longer think it’s a problem that’s he’s playing wing (because he may not have the sense to play center), and I no longer think he’s the future of the franchise. Tyler Seguin is a good supporting player; he’s a second tier 1st line wing. That’s just fine for this team, but lets just stop calling him the best player on the team. He’s the best shooter, and the best skater, that’s really it.

     

     

     

     

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from StanleyCuptotheBruinsin2011. Show StanleyCuptotheBruinsin2011's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    And you are a total Idiot !

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from nrguy. Show nrguy's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    Bergeron is a better player and most of the criticism of Seguin is on his 1 on 3s and 1 on 4s. 

    His still a kid and will continue to grow. 

    This "no hockey sense" is utter nonsense. He's a bit jittery with the puck but to say he doesn't have any hockey sense is absurd. 

    He looks like he'd be a better lacross player than a hockey player though.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from biggskye. Show biggskye's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

       Olsonic has just forced me to agree with Stanley... With Stanley!!!

    I need another drink.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Olsonic. Show Olsonic's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    I was criticizing his 1 on 3 and 1 on 4s? 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from bostonfan191646. Show bostonfan191646's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    sigh. i agree with stanley. loading the gun. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    I agree with Stanley... I swear to god I'm not drunk. Really.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from nrguy. Show nrguy's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    In response to Olsonic's comment:

    I was criticizing his 1 on 3 and 1 on 4s? 



    Yes. When you see him trying to stick handle through traffic, he doesn't have any help. Hence it's a 1 on 3 or 4. 

    The option is dump and chase or try to stick handle through traffic and then peel off for a change. It doesn't work but it's the same as dumping it (delaying for a change) with upside if he gets through.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucdufour. Show lucdufour's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    Olsonic, I had to read your post a few times just to make sure that I would not have a quick reaction.  My first reaction was that you were drinking or high,  but as I read it more closely, you do make some great points.  While I think "no hockey sense" is a bit strong, I think he does have to improve his game a bit and he still is very, very young.  He's incredibly fast-- and does everything fast that does not necesarilly create time and space for his teammates.  He's often ahead of all his teammates which is good if he is alone, bit bad when he is 1-on-3 or 1-on-4.    I honestly do not like his snapshot when he is 1-on-3 as it's usually an easy save and breakout since the other team has numbers.  If he could somehow mix speeds a bit more he might be able to use his other teammates a bit more and make his entry into the zone more dangerous.  To be fair to him, however, I do think this is totally a biproduct of him being a winger and not doing the down low work a centerman typically does so he is not always ahead of the play.  Centers naturally have way more time and space than wingers so I do think he is still adjusting to the position.    

    Comparing him to other #1 or #2 picks overall, he is different---Not quite the sniper that Stamkos is and much different than Tavares (hard to compare them- as he is a center).  But the question will come out soon enough.  Is he a franchise player like those two?  Right now, I would have to say "no".  But neither is Hall, and Hall is playing the position he played since he was 5.   Give this one more time---another player with world class speed was Mike Gartner and he turned out alright.

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from chetgnat. Show chetgnat's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    Joe Thornton changed. He was a completely useless player his first year or two here. Tyler is in year 3, led the team in scoring in year two, was at or near the lead in +/-, is playing under a coach who demands defense-first from every player, is like 2nd on the team in scoring still, and is smart enough to continue to incorporate new things into his game as time goes on.

     

    I've already seen him trying to do some new things on the rush the last few games. I think it's just a matter of time and a maturation process. He's a good kid who works hard and has elite skill. That combination tends to work out well. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Olsonic. Show Olsonic's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    In response to lucdufour's comment:

     

    If he could somehow mix speeds a bit more he might be able to use his other teammates a bit more and make his entry into the zone more dangerous.  To be fair to him, however, I do think this is totally a biproduct of him being a winger and not doing the down low work a centerman typically does so he is not always ahead of the play.  Centers naturally have way more time and space than wingers so I do think he is still adjusting to the position.  
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



     

    I agree with you that Tyler is often ahead of his teammates in the neutral zone, almost  never mixes up his speed in the offensive zone (or is ineffective when he tries to), and doesn't create time and space for his line-mates; those are really crucial examples showing a lack of understanding of how to develop a scoring play with his line-mates. If you don't call that a lack of hockey sense then I don't know what else you call it.

    The delay play should be extraordinarily effective for a kid that fast.. but the thing is, as we see when he tries to make entry into the offensive zone, whenever he's in tight space with even an average defender, he often gets seperated from the puck. Intentionally drawing an opponent in close (which is the basis of any delay play, something Brad Marchand does like 5 times a shift), is just not part of Seguin's skill set. Perhaps as a consequence of his unfamiliarity with the game in tight spaces, he doesn't delay without the puck either, it's almost like that part of his game was never developed because he was always the centerpiece of the offense and he was just given the puck so he could skate through defenders at full speed and score. It's a testament to his natural talent that he's still able to do that in the NHL at put up ~30 goals.

    But truthfully, I feel like we're seeing Tyler Seguin's ceiling right now. I understand that he's young, but unless he figures out how to make his skill set work with his current team-mates, who will probably never be as fast as him, he's not going to be that player putting up 85+ points that we all thought when we saw him blow through tampa bay for 4 points in a playoff game. He absolutely has to use his speed to create speration and get himself into more dangerous areas of the ice, and more importantly, find the hockey sense to time his moves so he arrives right as his teammates have freed themselves up. It's a lot of stuff away from the play that he needs to improve on. Those are the type of players I associate with "hockey sense" because they can anticipate how the play will develop; they quickly identify the position their teamates are in relative to thieir opponents, and have learned through intuition and years of practice how to exploit those situations.

    At the moment, I just don't see enough examples of Tyler Seguin showing he knows how to exploit defenders with anything other than pure speed. 

    Edit: I should point out, that this same thing is what makes him an average power-play player. when he gets into the zone and has to run plays that require maintaining possession, thinking into the future, and exploiting momentary soft-spots in the defense, he just doesn't stand out as a confident player with a large arsenal of useful skills.

    And chetgnat, I see he's apparently a good kid and he's talented. He's an asset to the Bruins and there's plenty of reasons to like the kid, I am just trying to point out what is frustrating about his game, and what I think is holding that kid back from hitting the next level. I don't know who is available to talk to him about what to look for away from the play, Bobby Orr maybe? it really should be a wing that had similar speed to him.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from superj2k10. Show superj2k10's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    In response to Olsonic's comment:

     

    I reverse my longly held position that Edmonton Oilers made a mistake drafting Tyler Seguin. He's not a better player than Taylor Hall, and I'm starting to think it isn't that close.

    Tyler Seguin can do three things at an extremely high level: He can skate like the wind, he has a fantastic snap shot, and he's lethal on breakaways. But this season it's been increasingly obvious to me what Tyler Seguin cannot do at a high level:

     

    • He has no idea how to enter to offensive zone with the puck. Seguin regularly turns it over at the blueline, either by bumping into teammates along the way, drop-passing it to no-man's land, or simply fumbling it out of his possession at the most harmless looking poke-check.

    • Even if he does enter the zone with the puck, he almost never manages to create opportunities for his teammates beyond a burst of speed to the outside and heaving it across the middle or back to the point when the D over-commits. If the play evolves to anything more complicated than just an outside rush to the net, he's ends up wandering through the offensive zone on the weak-side waiting for a pass that never comes or he's in support on the strong side, stationary, and ends up collecting a pass and chucking it to the point like he’s a robot.

     

    In other words, Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense. He has no feel for his teammates and no creativity when he has the puck in his hands and he has no feel for the play without the puck. The only thing that makes Seguin a top player is the fact that he can absolutely bury the opportunities that he does get, and his speed is world class. When it comes to stick-handling, when it comes to shaking a defender by outsmarting him or working with a line-mate to get into opportunistic spots, he’s hopeless, and you know what? I don’t think it will ever change.

    Look around the NHL, do you see players that really substantially change their games at any point in their career? Sure, guys get stronger. But do you ever see players that were not scorers become snipers, or players that could not stick-handle become great with the puck, or guys that can’t pass become playmakers? No, you really don’t. I don’t think Tyler Seguin has the hockey smarts to be that player that we need him to be. Brad Marchand, David Krejci, Patrice Bergeron, and Milan Lucic have way more hockey sense than Tyler Seguin, and from what I saw, Ryan Spooner does to.

    Does that mean I want Seguin out of here? No, I like him and I think he’s a great asset to the team, but I no longer think it’s a problem that’s he’s playing wing (because he may not have the sense to play center), and I no longer think he’s the future of the franchise. Tyler Seguin is a good supporting player; he’s a second tier 1st line wing. That’s just fine for this team, but lets just stop calling him the best player on the team. He’s the best shooter, and the best skater, that’s really it.

     

     

     

     

     



    Its not hockey-sense, just maturity. Smart players will adjust and playing with Bergeron will certaintly help.

    Taylor Hall makes a bunch of mistakes, but guess what, they are both very young players with tremendous upside. Three years from now these two players will be among the elites playing a flawless brand of hockey.

    And, I too, agree with Stanley *JUMPS OFF BRIDGE*

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from biggskye. Show biggskye's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    With Stanley!!!!

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from mikzor. Show mikzor's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    In response to StanleyCuptotheBruinsin2011's comment:

    And you are a total Idiot !



    Well played Stanley.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Don-Bruino. Show Don-Bruino's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    Olsonic, you're just frustrated. Wait a few more games and it will pass.

    By the way, during these last dozen games or so no Bruin has looked even remotely good.

    Why single out Tyler, at least he has 5 goals in the last 12 games.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    Olsonic makes some good points but I like the maturity thought more then saying he has no hockey sense. That's a bit harsh.We've seen improvement in other areas of his game to this point of his career. Why not in this area eventually also ? 

    His carrying the puck into the offensive zone and what he does with it is a bit puzzling at times. I don't understand why he doesn't use his speed to the outside more to keep control of the puck a little longer. Back the defencemen off, stop and curl or go around the net. This way he can use his linemates rather then try stickhandling in a phone booth ( through the 2 defencemen )and loosing the puck so often.

    P.S. Olsonic is far from being an idiot. His points make perfectly good sense to me. Shame on all of you posters for agreeing with the idiot who's calling someone else an idiot.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    While I feel that Ols makes some quality points, I disagree with the notion that he will not learn "how to enter the zone" as he gains more NHL experience.

    I would say that right now , he is a top tier second line wing, with room for improvement.  Not bad for a 21 year old.

     Every 21 year old is different.  Just because there are other 21 year olds who are fully matured doesnt mean that its the norm.  He will most likely mature.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    Anyone suggesting that OC is an idiot needs to check their heads.  OC has been around a long time and has shown many times that he's very intelligent.

    Idiot:  Stanley

    Idiot:  Null

    Idiot:  heyoo

    Is OC in that class?  Not even close.

    I do disagree that Seguin has no hockey sense.  He may still be working on corralling his talents and adjusting to the NHL speed/style, but of course he has hockey sense.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    This is just an extension of the thread on his decision-making.  And I'm seeing a lot of what you're seeing, Olsonic.  Some of it is just conventional stuff, too - like you say, changing speeds so the D have to work harder to keep position, or curling back to look for the trailer.  Some of the stuff we talked about on the decision-making thread is a consequence of what you've described - he'll rush in and when he's pushed to the corner or doesn't have a shot, he throws the puck into space rather than to where his linemates are.  I wouldn't say that this means he has no hockey sense, though.  I would say it's a sign that he was able to dominate as a great one on one player and shooter, and necessity didn't dictate the need to develop the skills you're describing.  Heck, he led this team in scoring last year and he as basically teh same player then.  Even if he doesn't change, I don't think he's at his ceiling.  His ceiling just as a speed/shoot player is Glenn Anderson territory.  50 goals and fear in the hearts of lead-footed defensemen.

    I do think that will change, and I've seen him make the kind of play you're hoping for more often this year.  In fact, I've been frustrated with Bergeron - for about a nano-second - that he hasn't been able to bury some of the chances Seguin has created.  He's a creative player, so I think that creativity will expand in the direction you're looking to see.  It might even be true that he would develop that skill set faster if he played centre. 

    Look at me, being the optimist.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from bgrif008. Show bgrif008's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    Olsonic,

    The things Tyler possesses are the things you cant teach, but can always be worked on. Youre right in the sense that most players dont really change much and just become awesome stick handlers or snipers. You usually already have that skill. BUT, when it comes to learning the game and hockey sense, I think every player improves on that with age. Tyler will get smarter and his hockey sense will always improve. And with that, he'll become even better with age. The only player I can think of that went from OK to a pretty good goal scorer was Glen Murray. He is the only player I can really think of that worked alot on his shot and quick release. I think in his second stint with the Bruins, we saw the Glen Murray we wanted when the Bruins drafted him. He got better with age. Tyler will do the same, which makes me excited for his future. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Don-Bruino. Show Don-Bruino's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    In response to Olsonic's comment:

     

    Edit: I should point out, that this same thing is what makes him an average power-play player. when he gets into the zone and has to run plays that require maintaining possession, thinking into the future, and exploiting momentary soft-spots in the defense, he just doesn't stand out as a confident player with a large arsenal of useful skills.

     



    You forget that his linemates on the power play have been Horton and Lucic.

     

    Poor Tyler would have to present the puck in the crease to those two and then interfere with the goalie so they could score into the open net.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    I really don't think it's hockey sense that is the root of the problem. But there is a problem. The more I watch this kid the more frustrated I get, there are continual displays of questionable decisions and flat out soft play. For me there are two issues that are connected to his performance. He is terrified of physical contact, and it's worse than it shows because he disguises it so well. I really can't remember him finishing a check. Is he better than he was at it? - yes. Does he still suck at it? yes. Also, I think he may have been able for his entire career to be highly successful by using his skating and stick skills exclusively. That doesn't make for a complete player. It will never work that way. Just be on David Krejci's level of physical play. Nobody is expecting him to be anymore than that. I really believe that most of the time he is playing through the filter of avoiding confrontation at all costs. I wish an opponent would rough him up a little and challenge him to respond, or really crush him into the boards. I think it would do wonders for him. Doesn't really ever happen because his radar is up full blast. If Seguin competed like Skinner for example, just imagine the results. Talent is unquestionable.

    It may appear like hockey sense, but that's just a result and not the cause.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Don-Bruino. Show Don-Bruino's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    In response to JWensink's comment:

     

    Just be on David Krejci's level of physical play. Nobody is expecting him to be anymore than that. I really believe that most of the time he is playing through the filter of avoiding confrontation at all costs.

     



    Compared to his first year, he's a third of the way there.

     

    How fast will the other two thirds come? That is the question.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from wallydouglas. Show wallydouglas's posts

    Re: Tyler Seguin has no hockey sense

    His decision making has been off more than not this year, and i still blame 2 things for his so so play, one is playing on that bigger ice surface of wide open hockey and to top that off  i think hes a true centerman because hes a bit too soft along the boards.

    Saying that as mentioned, hes still young, this shortened season doesnt help but look for him to come around in the playoffs.

     
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