Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from scooter244. Show scooter244's posts

    Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    Just curious, and it's very relevant around here (Saskatchewan) as the political climate has drastically shifted over the last ten years.  I'm wondering if this basic philosophy is affecting which side you choose in the NHL lockout?

    So, are you a supporter of Unions in general or are you a Union Buster and does that parallel your thoughts on the NHL's situation? 

    I am a Union member and getting attacked by our Provincial Government and it is making me side with the players.  To see an employer negotiate the way the NHL has, with nothing but large take-aways, would make my resolve stronger.  I would take short term loss to stop this dictatorial style of Collective Bargaining.  A stand needs to be made for the next contract and beyond.  I feel they gave in once, allowing the "good for the game" philosophy to win out.  The result was the Owners asking for more the next time.  Enough. 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    They "gave in" to the salary cap, only to see players receiving contracts worth over $100M a few years later.  The players also got free agency lowered to seven years or the age of 27, right? 

    Poor them.  They really need to hold their ground this time around.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    No Unions in the US, no middle class. Look at what proffesionel athletes made before Curt Flood made his stand. Pro athletes were not allowed to shop themselves nor leave teams becuase of ownership greed.

    The Homestead Strike changed it all and gave workers rights. The struggle for workers rights won't go anywhere though, there will always be Govenors like Scott Walker.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to scooter244's comment:

    Just curious, and it's very relevant around here (Saskatchewan) as the political climate has drastically shifted over the last ten years.  I'm wondering if this basic philosophy is affecting which side you choose in the NHL lockout?

    So, are you a supporter of Unions in general or are you a Union Buster and does that parallel your thoughts on the NHL's situation? 

    I am a Union member and getting attacked by our Provincial Government and it is making me side with the players.  To see an employer negotiate the way the NHL has, with nothing but large take-aways, would make my resolve stronger.  I would take short term loss to stop this dictatorial style of Collective Bargaining.  A stand needs to be made for the next contract and beyond.  I feel they gave in once, allowing the "good for the game" philosophy to win out.  The result was the Owners asking for more the next time.  Enough. 



    Scooter, I'm not pro or against Union. I've been on the Union side & now the management side of things as far as "normal" working world. I think Union's are needed when favortism, or wages are a real issue. However, when the the Union has to protect the "dog f'er's" at a work place is where I have my biggest issue. I think the Union as a whole needs to also start doing a better job of addressing these kinds of workers...or lazy bastards is the better word. If an individual isn't willing to do his job, or he uses every excuse in the book not to do it. It's nothing short of disgusting when the Union has to waste time to try & protect these idiots & save them. And if the Union doesn't do their due diligence then that worker can sue the Union. It's the biggest form of BS there is.

    Now, as far as this lockout goes? I'm not an either side. I think both sides need to be beat & knock some sense into them. The players are getting robbed as far the owners trying to not abide by signed contracts. That's not fair, not right & if the teams had no intentions of sticking to them. They should've at least cancelled this years free agency period until a CBA was in place. Regardless of whether or not we think the player got too much is besides the point. When somebody buys a vehicle for a certain price & signs the paper on that price. There's no going back to the dealer & saying "I want it for this much less & take a couple of years off the loan" BUT....I do think there needs to be a hired mediator company, or something put into place that protects a team from having to pay a player like Scott Gomez, or Matt Stajan for their non- performances.

    I also, think that any player who truly believes that they deserve any more than 50% of HRR is insane!

     

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    I don't believe the NHLPA is a union.  They have a collective bargaining structure in sports, but this isn't a union in the sense that it concerns itself with workers' rights and injustices perpetrated by sleazy employers.  All they concern themselves with is how much players can make and how fast. 

    We're also a long way from Curt Flood. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from heyoo. Show heyoo's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    Without unions we would all be slaves.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to heyoo's comment:

    Without unions we would all be slaves.




    A very unintelligent way of putting it!

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from 49-North. Show 49-North's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    I don't think you can say "unions are good" or "unions are bad".  It's too absolute.  There are many cases where the union is in the right, and other cases where they are in the wrong.  I agree with Neely above, regarding the "protection" offered by unions for slackers, or workers caught doing something ethically wrong, but perhaps not illegal. 

    On the other hand, in cases where corporations are offshoring jobs to China and India, where mergers result in downsizing and consolidation, there has to be a union to ensure that workers' rights are completely trampled over.

    In an ideal world, unions and employers work together to get rid of 'dead wood' in the workforce, make the company operate more efficiently, and thus avoid offshoring jobs, perhaps encourage plant expansion, and therefore more jobs here at home.  If either side is in a "take, take, take" mentality, then everyone loses.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:

    In response to heyoo's comment:

    Without unions we would all be slaves.




    A very unintelligent way of putting it!

     

     

    I stand with the proletariat because the bourgeois class would gladly make us slaves.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from scooter244. Show scooter244's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:

    Scooter, I'm not pro or against Union. I've been on the Union side & now the management side of things as far as "normal" working world. I think Union's are needed when favortism, or wages are a real issue. However, when the the Union has to protect the "dog f'er's" at a work place is where I have my biggest issue. I think the Union as a whole needs to also start doing a better job of addressing these kinds of workers...or lazy bastards is the better word. If an individual isn't willing to do his job, or he uses every excuse in the book not to do it. It's nothing short of disgusting when the Union has to waste time to try & protect these idiots & save them. And if the Union doesn't do their due diligence then that worker can sue the Union. It's the biggest form of BS there is.

    Now, as far as this lockout goes? I'm not an either side. I think both sides need to be beat & knock some sense into them. The players are getting robbed as far the owners trying to not abide by signed contracts. That's not fair, not right & if the teams had no intentions of sticking to them. They should've at least cancelled this years free agency period until a CBA was in place. Regardless of whether or not we think the player got too much is besides the point. When somebody buys a vehicle for a certain price & signs the paper on that price. There's no going back to the dealer & saying "I want it for this much less & take a couple of years off the loan" BUT....I do think there needs to be a hired mediator company, or something put into place that protects a team from having to pay a player like Scott Gomez, or Matt Stajan for their non- performances.

    I also, think that any player who truly believes that they deserve any more than 50% of HRR is insane!



    I have not sat on the management side but still,  I can't agree with you more.  It is the sleazy lawyer side of Unions, everyone deserves a defense.  Well, no sometimes they don't.  Also, I might add, I wish I could be promoted on merit rather than longevity.  The protection against favoritism has its cost.  It's a pretty big cost.  However, wages and benefits make  up for a lot of this. 

    What I am against is declarations of war against organized workers like we are seeing at home here, and has been seen in Wisconsin and many other places.  There is a long term cost (just ask our friends in B.C.). 

    As Sandog said, the middle class is really what's in jeopardy here.   Corporate profits are based on smaller and smaller margins and the easiest thing to cut is workers and wages.  The trickle down effect is devastating.  Rich get richer and the poor get poorer. 

    The ironic thing is my fantastic Union negotiated pension needs to grow and is heavily invested in these same corporations squeezing the last dollar out of their workers.  Tough to sell change.

     

     
     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Orrthebest. Show Orrthebest's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    I am a big Union supporter when they do what there supposed to do which is protect workers rights.  Unfortunately I have to support the owners because the players have shown no regard for the league, the fans and the tax payers they expect to prop up the teams losing money because their wages are too high.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    Book once said it best in a short statement.  As I have said before, a contract is a contract.  And I believe Orrthebest is correct, the owners being due diligent with business given the eventuality of inflation by the end of decade.  If forced to take a black or white position, I would say I am voting for the "union buster".  I don't agree with the terminology.  I believe unions are still viable in the business world but the NHLPA is not a union.  

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from skater68. Show skater68's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    Well lets see

    40 hour week, paid holidays, overtime pay, rights to arbitration , collective bargaining

    These things didn't just happen men and women were shot down and clubbed to death for these benefits. And it's not just coincidence that history books leave a lot of this unsaid.

     

    Government and industry have been increasingly hostile to unions and the middle class is vanishing

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from WalkTheLine. Show WalkTheLine's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    Not a fan of unions in general. Like Book, I don't view professional sports unions as true unions. An entitiy the bargains collectively doen not make it a union, especially when its average member makes significantly more than the average working stiff.

    Unions had their place and in some arenas still do. I still see unions as neccessary for some groups such as hotel workers but no longer needed in many industries. Auto workers for example. Public service unions are generally a bad idea, including teachers unions. If you want to understand why the US is lagging behind many other countries in education you can start with the teachers union. Prevailing wage laws in construction artificially inflate the cost of building public buildings. These are building built using our tax dollars. The teamsters have a history of organized crime. A friend of mne owns a business where an employee watched a machine malfunction and burn out (about a $150k loss) rather than shut it down because it wasn't his job and the union would bust him if he touched that machine. All he had to do was hit one button. There are lots of negatives to what unions have become IMO. So not a fan in general.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to WalkTheLine's comment:

    Not a fan of unions in general. Like Book, I don't view professional sports unions as true unions. An entitiy the bargains collectively doen not make it a union, especially when its average member makes significantly more than the average working stiff.

    Unions had their place and in some arenas still do. I still see unions as neccessary for some groups such as hotel workers but no longer needed in many industries. Auto workers for example. Public service unions are generally a bad idea, including teachers unions. If you want to understand why the US is lagging behind many other countries in education you can start with the teachers union. Prevailing wage laws in construction artificially inflate the cost of building public buildings. These are building built using our tax dollars. The teamsters have a history of organized crime. A friend of mne owns a business where an employee watched a machine malfunction and burn out (about a $150k loss) rather than shut it down because it wasn't his job and the union would bust him if he touched that machine. All he had to do was hit one button. There are lots of negatives to what unions have become IMO. So not a fan in general.



    I think it's other industries that cause this as well. I left the airline world to come back to oil & gas in the province of AB. The ONLY reason I left the company I was working for was the fact of tripling my income was something I couldn't say no too. Yes, I have to work away from my family for stretches, but my kids are grown for the most part & I really don't have a nest egg yet. The oil companies want the oil, they need to pay extremely HUGE wages to get the workers to leave their families. These are from tradespeople, management & office staff to camp cooks, security personall, to janitors.This causes the local contractors to increase their wage rates when they need people, because if they don't those people will move to the oil patch. Like I did. Another example of a triple down effect. Pay more to get more. And the bottom line it does affect the middle to lower class the most.

    Now, it was the Unions that actually helped these tradespeople get the rates they now have. And this is where I do get a little concerned, because the Union workers are now leaving their Unions, because a lot of job sites aren't Unionized anymore. The rates & benefits are there without the union. So, what will happen when the Unions dissolve completely? Will the Oil Exec's start decreasing their rates before the workers? I think not!

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    Walk the Line, I would agree generally on your stance on Teacher's Associations, or unions.  I served as chief labor negotiator in the 90s.  NH certainly is different from a state like NJ with regards to Teacher's unions.  FYI tenure is the problem.  Also most school boards are temporary stewards of local education, most have axes to grind and not the interest promoting public education.  BTW most charter schools do not have to take on special needs students in their respectitive areas making them seem more effiecent.  I would support the dissolving of teach unions and to wit a Mark Twain quote, "God made the idiot for practice, and then he made the school board".  Higher education costs are far greater than public schools.  

    Now to hockey, the owners have to deal with some really difficult business decisions.  Infaltion as I mentioned, but also creating a viable CBA which honors the contract's given to players.  The owners obviously will have to agree to a long term contract which is daunting for any business.  The players will need to capitulate soon or many of those players will lose the potential of year's salary in careers that average only a few years.  Now that is going to be the factor imo.  

    Cheers!

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from scooter244. Show scooter244's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to skater68's comment:

    Well lets see

    40 hour week, paid holidays, overtime pay, rights to arbitration , collective bargaining

    These things didn't just happen men and women were shot down and clubbed to death for these benefits. And it's not just coincidence that history books leave a lot of this unsaid.

     

    Government and industry have been increasingly hostile to unions and the middle class is vanishing



    This is exactly what is being threatened in Saskatchewan.  Our Government is re-writing labour laws and all the above are being examined as well as Occupational Health and Safety.  Soon to come are 44 hour work weeks, one less week of holidays, handcuffing the Unions ability to collect dues, and broad essential services designations limiting the right to strike.  All this in the birthplace of Medicare and the heart of social democracy.  Never thought I'd see the day. 

    Why is it that we are advancing so much from a technological standpoint and yet we must work more?  Not just unionized people.  Plenty of professionals put in 50-60 hour weeks.  Many have two incomes as well with children being raised in daycare.  This is wrong.  Priorities need to be examined a little closer. 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from pjstock. Show pjstock's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand




    How can you call it Union Busting,if they were a real Union, you would have 100 % solidarity,instead you have,the stars who don'y need the money. Fleeing to Europe & 2nd,3rd & 4th liners sitting over here in North America loosing money. The fact that its everyman for himself is a joke. I bet if this so called Union had a chance to vote on a certain parts of a deal or to accept any deal.It would get done,the majority of the league would vote for it.This talk about 50/50 split,i don't care,these guys are paid to play a sport,i think this whole mess was caused by greedy owners who are stupid enough to let Jeremy jacobs lead them in Negotiations is ridiculous & on the other side Donald Fehr who will walk these guys on a cliff.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    Pretty much an impossible discussion, but I'll play along too.  As a society, we would be pretty much screwed if unions hadn't come along.  We know that.

    I've worked both sides, and never liked the unionized deal, because my personal contribution was lumped into the same category as the slackers.  I didn't, don't understand the idea of promoting/paying people based on tenure.

    Having said that...union jobs provide a high level of security(which young achievers rarely consider),  and good pay.  Outside of those pro's and cons, the things mentioned here are more the result of stupidity than anything else.  It seems unions have not "grown" much since their infancy...maybe because employers haven't pushed them enough.

    For those that decry the loss of middleclass...in most area's of Canada and the US, there are no better middleclass jobs than Government,.. that's a huge problem, and a fairly new phenomenom.  Any 'boomer' over 50 can tell you that none of the best middle class jobs were gov't when they entered the workplace.

    With the exception of very, very few categories, non union middle class jobs have regressed over the last couple decades.  Simply put, union jobs have been receiving regular raises while many non union ones have not.  A ton of entreprenurialism went out the window in the early 90's, when many realized the road to riches didn't require the savy it once did...downsizing became a no brainer.  Employ less people, fire your highest paid, replace them with cheaper bodies, then head for the bank.  So what if productivity went down 10 or 20%...the cost savings justifed things.  All the while, civil servant jobs got their small raises and today, they're the best jobs. 

    Had the big 3 been able to simply get rid of many unionized jobs, they'd be still hanging on to a broken business model.  Why, because they would have ignored their bloated hierarchy until the efficiencies of the layoffs caught up to them.  I don't know what assembly line workers make nowdays, but it's much less than it was 10 years ago.  Maybe that's good, however, anybody know what a retired 40 something year old life guard.. pensioned off from the state of California makes?  I would suggest any problems being faced today, aren't because of unions or otherwise, but an inability to see things logically,clearly and to react accordingly.  It's so easy to just point the finger at unions, OR employers. 

    Read an interesting book lately(Pendulum), kind of a business read, but it's about a very clear 40 year cycle that just keeps morphing into the same predictible "values" we embrace as a society.  Our overall values, pretty much dictate everything.  During this 40 year cycle, we go from one extreme to the other, and the most balanced point is around year 20.

    Just loosely looking at the NHL, in the 50's and a good part of the 60's, owners were judge, jury, banker and God.  By the mid 70's they were reduced to tenants, the players had the hammer.  The balance of power has changed back and forth since, and it appears that since 04, the owners have it. 

    The fundamental concept of a union is great.  The fundamental concept of a profitable business employing people, is equally wonderful. 

    Anything negative/stupid or other coming from either side should be regarded as just that, not an attack on their relevance.

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to pjstock's comment:




    How can you call it Union Busting,if they were a real Union, you would have 100 % solidarity,instead you have,the stars who don'y need the money. Fleeing to Europe & 2nd,3rd & 4th liners sitting over here in North America loosing money. The fact that its everyman for himself is a joke. I bet if this so called Union had a chance to vote on a certain parts of a deal or to accept any deal.It would get done,the majority of the league would vote for it.This talk about 50/50 split,i don't care,these guys are paid to play a sport,i think this whole mess was caused by greedy owners who are stupid enough to let Jeremy jacobs lead them in Negotiations is ridiculous & on the other side Donald Fehr who will walk these guys on a cliff.




    Why in the world would you expect "100% solidarity" if they were a "real union"? Most unions use the democratic process of voting because the idea of getting 100% support isn't practical in the real world.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    I don't consider the NHLPA a union in the traditional sense - if they were then worker safety would be a more prominent issue in these negotiations.

     

    That said, like a few of you I've been on both sides of it - both unionized worker and management, and I see the good and the bad, particularly in regards to unions going out of their way to protect unproductive or just plain bad workers. Drives me nuts.

    But beyond the worker-protection and wage aspects of unions there's anther area where I think they play an important role for the general public - quality control. This is especially true of trade unions and professional associations/guilds.

    In my industry as ownership was quickly consolidated in the late 80's through the 90's and into today, there was a concerted effort by ownership to break the unions and guilds, and it worked amazingly well. 20 years ago almost all news agencies and major publications were union shops, now almost none of them are. The decrease in unionization correlates almost perfectly with a decrease in the quality of media and journalism that we've seen in NA. Beyond just the aspects of worker protection and wages, these unions and guilds also had quality standards, similar to those of trade unions. But in the journalism guilds the quality standards were based around ethics and modes of conduct rather than building or ticketing standards. As the guilds and unions were systematically broken up, so too were those ethical and rules of conduct standards. We as an industry were no longer held to the same codes of conduct that had been previously enforced by our unions.

    As anyone who reads a newspaper or news website these day can attest, that collapse of the unions and guilds has led to a correlating collapse in the quality of journalism. Kent, Cronkite, Murrow, Bernstein, Rather, Jennings, Woodward, Sinclair, Green, Frum (Barbara, not her kid), all of the giants of my industry were union people. Hannity, O'Reilly, Breitbart, Beck, Ollbermann, Coulter, Grace, Blitzer, Drudge, Eklund, the list is massive, are not, and as such are not held to the same standard of conduct. (From a hockey fan standpoint, consider that the last major sports news organization that remains a union shop is TSN, and compare their quality of hockey coverage to other sources).

    So in this way, there's another aspect of the decline of unions that has hurt us as a society.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to red75's comment:

    I don't consider the NHLPA a union in the traditional sense - if they were then worker safety would be a more prominent issue in these negotiations.

     

    That said, like a few of you I've been on both sides of it - both unionized worker and management, and I see the good and the bad, particularly in regards to unions going out of their way to protect unproductive or just plain bad workers. Drives me nuts.

    But beyond the worker-protection and wage aspects of unions there's anther area where I think they play an important role for the general public - quality control. This is especially true of trade unions and professional associations/guilds.

    In my industry as ownership was quickly consolidated in the late 80's through the 90's and into today, there was a concerted effort by ownership to break the unions and guilds, and it worked amazingly well. 20 years ago almost all news agencies and major publications were union shops, now almost none of them are. The decrease in unionization correlates almost perfectly with a decrease in the quality of media and journalism that we've seen in NA. Beyond just the aspects of worker protection and wages, these unions and guilds also had quality standards, similar to those of trade unions. But in the journalism guilds the quality standards were based around ethics and modes of conduct rather than building or ticketing standards. As the guilds and unions were systematically broken up, so too were those ethical and rules of conduct standards. We as an industry were no longer held to the same codes of conduct that had been previously enforced by our unions.

    As anyone who reads a newspaper or news website these day can attest, that collapse of the unions and guilds has led to a correlating collapse in the quality of journalism. Kent, Cronkite, Murrow, Bernstein, Rather, Jennings, Woodward, Sinclair, Green, Frum (Barbara, not her kid), all of the giants of my industry were union people. Hannity, O'Reilly, Breitbart, Beck, Ollbermann, Coulter, Grace, Blitzer, Drudge, Eklund, the list is massive, are not, and as such are not held to the same standard of conduct. (From a hockey fan standpoint, consider that the last major sports news organization that remains a union shop is TSN, and compare their quality of hockey coverage to other sources).

    So in this way, there's another aspect of the decline of unions that has hurt us as a society.



    Well Red, if what you say in the above & especially the bolded statement is actually true. You certainly have made a great argument why Union's are good, because TSN is certainly the cats behind for sport coverage. And they have the 2 best hockey insiders with Dreger & McKenzie! Imho I don't think anybody comes close! Pierre LeBrun is certainly proving his worth in past year as well.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand



    Well Red, if what you say in the above & especially the bolded statement is actually true. You certainly have made a great argument why Union's are good, because TSN is certainly the cats behind for sport coverage. And they have the 2 best hockey insiders with Dreger & McKenzie! Imho I don't think anybody comes close! Pierre LeBrun is certainly proving his worth in past year as well.

    [/QUOTE]


    well, CBC is union too, so... (though they're a public sector union, so a little different)

     
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