In response to heyoo's comment:

In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:

The one area where union "quality control" has failed is with teachers.  In BC, until very recently, the College of Teachers, which, among other things, rules on discipline, was dominated by reps from the teachers' union, and did anything it could to protect teachers charged with unethical and/or substandard behaviour.  The stories of horrible teachers getting off scott-free, or with a light slap on the wrist would be enough to get your kids signed up for private school. 

The complete absence of accountability in the public schools in BC is crazy.  Examples of bad teachers who are basically playing out the string until they can retire with their big pensions abound.  And, many of those who retire can, for some insane reason, opt to be TOCs (teachers on call), and bump out many bright, eager new teachers trying to get into the system.

That being said, there are many exceptional teachers out there, who aren't properly recognized for their efforts, because the system doesn't reward them.  The system of pay and promotion based soley on seniority, with no consideration of merit, is perhaps the worst legacy of unions.

I don't consider the NHLPA a union in the traditional sense - if they were then worker safety would be a more prominent issue in these negotiations.

That said, like a few of you I've been on both sides of it - both unionized worker and management, and I see the good and the bad, particularly in regards to unions going out of their way to protect unproductive or just plain bad workers. Drives me nuts.

But beyond the worker-protection and wage aspects of unions there's anther area where I think they play an important role for the general public - quality control. This is especially true of trade unions and professional associations/guilds.

In my industry as ownership was quickly consolidated in the late 80's through the 90's and into today, there was a concerted effort by ownership to break the unions and guilds, and it worked amazingly well. 20 years ago almost all news agencies and major publications were union shops, now almost none of them are. The decrease in unionization correlates almost perfectly with a decrease in the quality of media and journalism that we've seen in NA. Beyond just the aspects of worker protection and wages, these unions and guilds also had quality standards, similar to those of trade unions. But in the journalism guilds the quality standards were based around ethics and modes of conduct rather than building or ticketing standards. As the guilds and unions were systematically broken up, so too were those ethical and rules of conduct standards. We as an industry were no longer held to the same codes of conduct that had been previously enforced by our unions.

As anyone who reads a newspaper or news website these day can attest, that collapse of the unions and guilds has led to a correlating collapse in the quality of journalism. Kent, Cronkite, Murrow, Bernstein, Rather, Jennings, Woodward, Sinclair, Green, Frum (Barbara, not her kid), all of the giants of my industry were union people. Hannity, O'Reilly, Breitbart, Beck, Ollbermann, Coulter, Grace, Blitzer, Drudge, Eklund, the list is massive, are not, and as such are not held to the same standard of conduct. (From a hockey fan standpoint, consider that the last major sports news organization that remains a union shop is TSN, and compare their quality of hockey coverage to other sources).

So in this way, there's another aspect of the decline of unions that has hurt us as a society.

In response to red75's comment:

I sincerely would love the NHL/NHLPA to get it on!

In response to heyoo's comment:

The defense rest your honor!  

I don't consider the NHLPA a union in the traditional sense - if they were then worker safety would be a more prominent issue in these negotiations.

That said, like a few of you I've been on both sides of it - both unionized worker and management, and I see the good and the bad, particularly in regards to unions going out of their way to protect unproductive or just plain bad workers. Drives me nuts.

But beyond the worker-protection and wage aspects of unions there's anther area where I think they play an important role for the general public - quality control. This is especially true of trade unions and professional associations/guilds.

In my industry as ownership was quickly consolidated in the late 80's through the 90's and into today, there was a concerted effort by ownership to break the unions and guilds, and it worked amazingly well. 20 years ago almost all news agencies and major publications were union shops, now almost none of them are. The decrease in unionization correlates almost perfectly with a decrease in the quality of media and journalism that we've seen in NA. Beyond just the aspects of worker protection and wages, these unions and guilds also had quality standards, similar to those of trade unions. But in the journalism guilds the quality standards were based around ethics and modes of conduct rather than building or ticketing standards. As the guilds and unions were systematically broken up, so too were those ethical and rules of conduct standards. We as an industry were no longer held to the same codes of conduct that had been previously enforced by our unions.

As anyone who reads a newspaper or news website these day can attest, that collapse of the unions and guilds has led to a correlating collapse in the quality of journalism. Kent, Cronkite, Murrow, Bernstein, Rather, Jennings, Woodward, Sinclair, Green, Frum (Barbara, not her kid), all of the giants of my industry were union people. Hannity, O'Reilly, Breitbart, Beck, Ollbermann, Coulter, Grace, Blitzer, Drudge, Eklund, the list is massive, are not, and as such are not held to the same standard of conduct. (From a hockey fan standpoint, consider that the last major sports news organization that remains a union shop is TSN, and compare their quality of hockey coverage to other sources).

So in this way, there's another aspect of the decline of unions that has hurt us as a society.

Not a fan of unions in general. Like Book, I don't view professional sports unions as true unions. An entitiy the bargains collectively doen not make it a union, especially when its average member makes significantly more than the average working stiff.

Unions had their place and in some arenas still do. I still see unions as neccessary for some groups such as hotel workers but no longer needed in many industries. Auto workers for example. Public service unions are generally a bad idea, including teachers unions. If you want to understand why the US is lagging behind many other countries in education you can start with the teachers union. Prevailing wage laws in construction artificially inflate the cost of building public buildings. These are building built using our tax dollars. The teamsters have a history of organized crime. A friend of mne owns a business where an employee watched a machine malfunction and burn out (about a $150k loss) rather than shut it down because it wasn't his job and the union would bust him if he touched that machine. All he had to do was hit one button. There are lots of negatives to what unions have become IMO. So not a fan in general.

In response to WalkTheLine's comment:

Corruption in the unions has never cost this country what corruption in government and businesses has cost the taxpayers.

This most recent fiasco with the US economy is in a long list of multi billion and trillion dollar loses caused by CEO and government policy makers .

The blame game on unionized workers is getting old and hopefully the middle class will come to understand it's simply a ploy.

And these lame stories " It's not my job" goes back to the Japanese takeover of the US auto industry. When the actual cause was lazy inefficient, greedy CEO's who didn't have the brains or foresight to upgrade the 50's era automobiles . Sitting on their fat *sses and watched the industry go down 

The problem with the school system and unionized teachers is a typical example of shifting blame. The actual problem is local school boards that are only concerned with indoctrinating children with their " Christian" values at the expense of the children's education. And secondly the way the schools are funded. Most schools are primarily funded by real estate tax.why?Take a look at an upscale school in Beverly Hills the look at a school in the Kentucky Appalachians .

The fall of the great middle class in the US is directly correlated to the "War on the unions"

In response to WalkTheLine's comment:

Corruption in the unions has never cost this country what corruption in government and businesses has cost the taxpayers.

I agree but that doesn't mean unions aren't part of the problem as well, even if they aren't the biggest part.

This most recent fiasco with the US economy is in a long list of multi billion and trillion dollar loses caused by CEO and government policy makers .

Partly true but that doesn't absolve the unions from their contribution to the mess.

The blame game on unionized workers is getting old and hopefully the middle class will come to understand it's simply a ploy.

If you read my post I didn't play the blame game. I stated some clear verifiable examples of problems caused by unions. I did not paint all unions with a broad brush. In fact I stated that some unions are needed. There is no ploy here.

And these lame stories " It's not my job" goes back to the Japanese takeover of the US auto industry. When the actual cause was lazy inefficient, greedy CEO's who didn't have the brains or foresight to upgrade the 50's era automobiles . Sitting on their fat *sses and watched the industry go down 

My example was not a "lame story". I know both the business owner and have met the employee who was such a union lacky he couldn't look at the bigger picture. In all fairness, the union steward followed up in a meeting and said it would have been okay in that situation to do someone else's job without getting in trouble.

Your blaming "greedy CEOs" and the government is typical of a blind pro-union lackey. How about you admit there is blame enough to go around including the unions?

The problem with the school system and unionized teachers is a typical example of shifting blame. The actual problem is local school boards that are only concerned with indoctrinating children with their " Christian" values at the expense of the children's education. And secondly the way the schools are funded. Most schools are primarily funded by real estate tax.why?Take a look at an upscale school in Beverly Hills the look at a school in the Kentucky Appalachians .

Again, I don't disagree but the teachers union is part of the problem but not the only part. The boards of education and parents are also part of the problem. Look, I put 2 of my kids in private schools at great expense and sacrifice to my wife and I because of the problems in the public schools in my area. I KNOW where the fault lies in my school district and part of it falls squarely on the lap of the union.

The fall of the great middle class in the US is directly correlated to the "War on the unions"

Absurd. You sound like a guy who can't think for himself. I feel sorry for you my friend.

I respectfully disagree with the quality control element of this discussion.  

We have problems with unions, business, government, education....the list goes on forever.  All serve a basic need.  Nothing works more awkwardly than government.  It's a never ending process attempting to make it function better.  It's ludicrous to suggest we'd be better off without government.  Same for business, and same for unions.

The basic purpose of a union, is to promote basic human rights, negotiate fair wages, and ensure a working balance throughout the hierarchy.  Attempting to blame, or credit them with much more is going outside their fundamental need, expertise, and value.  What they may have morphed into doesn't lesson their relevance, it merely suggests they suffer the same problems every other organization does.

Work on the problems. 

In response to skater68's comment:

I respectfully disagree with the quality control element of this discussion.  

We have problems with unions, business, government, education....the list goes on forever.  All serve a basic need.  Nothing works more awkwardly than government.  It's a never ending process attempting to make it function better.  It's ludicrous to suggest we'd be better off without government.  Same for business, and same for unions.

The basic purpose of a union, is to promote basic human rights, negotiate fair wages, and ensure a working balance throughout the hierarchy.  Attempting to blame, or credit them with much more is going outside their fundamental need, expertise, and value.  What they may have morphed into doesn't lesson their relevance, it merely suggests they suffer the same problems every other organization does.

Work on the problems. 

In response to stevegm's comment:
[QUOTE]

"Absurd. You sound like a guy who can't think for himself. I feel sorry for you my "friend

I can understand someone disagreeing with me and even thinking that my point of view is "Absurd"

However I don't understand why someone would label me as " brainwashed " and go on to say They feel sorry for me" 

At any rate I thought you were making some valid points in the discussion before that statement

Billionaires vs. millionaires squabbling over an absurd amount of money. There is no way that I would call this union busting or standing up for union rights. 

It's about the rich wanting to get richer..............on both sides. 

The title of the thread should be reserved for the average Joe's union negotiating and their workplaces. Not the NHL and their $$$. 

In response to Chowdahkid-'s comment:

Chowda, the point was do your real life beliefs or biases in regards to Unions influence your choosing sides in the hockey dispute.  Are pro Union people siding with the players and anti union folk with the owners.