Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from 49-North. Show 49-North's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    The one area where union "quality control" has failed is with teachers.  In BC, until very recently, the College of Teachers, which, among other things, rules on discipline, was dominated by reps from the teachers' union, and did anything it could to protect teachers charged with unethical and/or substandard behaviour.  The stories of horrible teachers getting off scott-free, or with a light slap on the wrist would be enough to get your kids signed up for private school. 

    The complete absence of accountability in the public schools in BC is crazy.  Examples of bad teachers who are basically playing out the string until they can retire with their big pensions abound.  And, many of those who retire can, for some insane reason, opt to be TOCs (teachers on call), and bump out many bright, eager new teachers trying to get into the system.

    That being said, there are many exceptional teachers out there, who aren't properly recognized for their efforts, because the system doesn't reward them.  The system of pay and promotion based soley on seniority, with no consideration of merit, is perhaps the worst legacy of unions.

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from heyoo. Show heyoo's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to heyoo's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Without unions we would all be slaves.

    [/QUOTE]


    A very unintelligent way of putting it!

    [/QUOTE]

    Unintelligent would be someone that believes in religion with no scientific proof, someone who votes for the Republican Party when they live off the government, someone who makes a point with no basis for backing that point at all. That would be unintelligent not point out something that  is as plain as day. Nice try though maybe next time big guy!

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to heyoo's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to heyoo's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Without unions we would all be slaves.

    [/QUOTE]


    A very unintelligent way of putting it!

    [/QUOTE]

    Unintelligent would be someone that believes in religion with no scientific proof, someone who votes for the Republican Party when they live off the government, someone who makes a point with no basis for backing that point at all. That would be unintelligent not point out something that  is as plain as day. Nice try though maybe next time big guy!

    [/QUOTE]

    The defense rest your honor!  

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to 49-North's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The one area where union "quality control" has failed is with teachers.  In BC, until very recently, the College of Teachers, which, among other things, rules on discipline, was dominated by reps from the teachers' union, and did anything it could to protect teachers charged with unethical and/or substandard behaviour.  The stories of horrible teachers getting off scott-free, or with a light slap on the wrist would be enough to get your kids signed up for private school. 

    The complete absence of accountability in the public schools in BC is crazy.  Examples of bad teachers who are basically playing out the string until they can retire with their big pensions abound.  And, many of those who retire can, for some insane reason, opt to be TOCs (teachers on call), and bump out many bright, eager new teachers trying to get into the system.

    That being said, there are many exceptional teachers out there, who aren't properly recognized for their efforts, because the system doesn't reward them.  The system of pay and promotion based soley on seniority, with no consideration of merit, is perhaps the worst legacy of unions.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    That was the example I was thinking of when I referenced protecting the inept. As I said, quality control is/was more a feature of the trade unions and guilds/professional associations. I wish the teachers' unions held themselves to the same standard.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to red75's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I don't consider the NHLPA a union in the traditional sense - if they were then worker safety would be a more prominent issue in these negotiations.

     

    That said, like a few of you I've been on both sides of it - both unionized worker and management, and I see the good and the bad, particularly in regards to unions going out of their way to protect unproductive or just plain bad workers. Drives me nuts.

    But beyond the worker-protection and wage aspects of unions there's anther area where I think they play an important role for the general public - quality control. This is especially true of trade unions and professional associations/guilds.

    In my industry as ownership was quickly consolidated in the late 80's through the 90's and into today, there was a concerted effort by ownership to break the unions and guilds, and it worked amazingly well. 20 years ago almost all news agencies and major publications were union shops, now almost none of them are. The decrease in unionization correlates almost perfectly with a decrease in the quality of media and journalism that we've seen in NA. Beyond just the aspects of worker protection and wages, these unions and guilds also had quality standards, similar to those of trade unions. But in the journalism guilds the quality standards were based around ethics and modes of conduct rather than building or ticketing standards. As the guilds and unions were systematically broken up, so too were those ethical and rules of conduct standards. We as an industry were no longer held to the same codes of conduct that had been previously enforced by our unions.

    As anyone who reads a newspaper or news website these day can attest, that collapse of the unions and guilds has led to a correlating collapse in the quality of journalism. Kent, Cronkite, Murrow, Bernstein, Rather, Jennings, Woodward, Sinclair, Green, Frum (Barbara, not her kid), all of the giants of my industry were union people. Hannity, O'Reilly, Breitbart, Beck, Ollbermann, Coulter, Grace, Blitzer, Drudge, Eklund, the list is massive, are not, and as such are not held to the same standard of conduct. (From a hockey fan standpoint, consider that the last major sports news organization that remains a union shop is TSN, and compare their quality of hockey coverage to other sources).

    So in this way, there's another aspect of the decline of unions that has hurt us as a society.

    [/QUOTE]

    Kabuki Democracy/Eric Alterman is a must read for you after reading the above.  

    I sincerely would love the NHL/NHLPA to get it on!

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to islamorada's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to red75's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I don't consider the NHLPA a union in the traditional sense - if they were then worker safety would be a more prominent issue in these negotiations.

     

    That said, like a few of you I've been on both sides of it - both unionized worker and management, and I see the good and the bad, particularly in regards to unions going out of their way to protect unproductive or just plain bad workers. Drives me nuts.

    But beyond the worker-protection and wage aspects of unions there's anther area where I think they play an important role for the general public - quality control. This is especially true of trade unions and professional associations/guilds.

    In my industry as ownership was quickly consolidated in the late 80's through the 90's and into today, there was a concerted effort by ownership to break the unions and guilds, and it worked amazingly well. 20 years ago almost all news agencies and major publications were union shops, now almost none of them are. The decrease in unionization correlates almost perfectly with a decrease in the quality of media and journalism that we've seen in NA. Beyond just the aspects of worker protection and wages, these unions and guilds also had quality standards, similar to those of trade unions. But in the journalism guilds the quality standards were based around ethics and modes of conduct rather than building or ticketing standards. As the guilds and unions were systematically broken up, so too were those ethical and rules of conduct standards. We as an industry were no longer held to the same codes of conduct that had been previously enforced by our unions.

    As anyone who reads a newspaper or news website these day can attest, that collapse of the unions and guilds has led to a correlating collapse in the quality of journalism. Kent, Cronkite, Murrow, Bernstein, Rather, Jennings, Woodward, Sinclair, Green, Frum (Barbara, not her kid), all of the giants of my industry were union people. Hannity, O'Reilly, Breitbart, Beck, Ollbermann, Coulter, Grace, Blitzer, Drudge, Eklund, the list is massive, are not, and as such are not held to the same standard of conduct. (From a hockey fan standpoint, consider that the last major sports news organization that remains a union shop is TSN, and compare their quality of hockey coverage to other sources).

    So in this way, there's another aspect of the decline of unions that has hurt us as a society.

    [/QUOTE]

    Kabuki Democracy/Eric Alterman is a must read for you after reading the above.  

    I sincerely would love the NHL/NHLPA to get it on!

    [/QUOTE]

    "What Liberal Media?" is a mainstay of my library. Great writer but I don't need his commentary, I've lived this crap. As a journalist it is not about left or right, it's about quality. Quality sucks now, and that is partly due to the lack of unions and partly due to the mess of ownership.Labour and ownership is to blame, as is the audience as well, for not demanding better quality and accepting shite.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from heyoo. Show heyoo's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to heyoo's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to heyoo's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Without unions we would all be slaves.

    [/QUOTE]


    A very unintelligent way of putting it!

    [/QUOTE]

    Unintelligent would be someone that believes in religion with no scientific proof, someone who votes for the Republican Party when they live off the government, someone who makes a point with no basis for backing that point at all. That would be unintelligent not point out something that  is as plain as day. Nice try though maybe next time big guy!

    [/QUOTE]

    The defense rest your honor!  

    [/QUOTE]

    Since you agreed with my initial comment I guess the defense would have rested with your unintelligent response. Thanks for pointing that out...

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to red75's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I don't consider the NHLPA a union in the traditional sense - if they were then worker safety would be a more prominent issue in these negotiations.

     

    That said, like a few of you I've been on both sides of it - both unionized worker and management, and I see the good and the bad, particularly in regards to unions going out of their way to protect unproductive or just plain bad workers. Drives me nuts.

    But beyond the worker-protection and wage aspects of unions there's anther area where I think they play an important role for the general public - quality control. This is especially true of trade unions and professional associations/guilds.

    In my industry as ownership was quickly consolidated in the late 80's through the 90's and into today, there was a concerted effort by ownership to break the unions and guilds, and it worked amazingly well. 20 years ago almost all news agencies and major publications were union shops, now almost none of them are. The decrease in unionization correlates almost perfectly with a decrease in the quality of media and journalism that we've seen in NA. Beyond just the aspects of worker protection and wages, these unions and guilds also had quality standards, similar to those of trade unions. But in the journalism guilds the quality standards were based around ethics and modes of conduct rather than building or ticketing standards. As the guilds and unions were systematically broken up, so too were those ethical and rules of conduct standards. We as an industry were no longer held to the same codes of conduct that had been previously enforced by our unions.

    As anyone who reads a newspaper or news website these day can attest, that collapse of the unions and guilds has led to a correlating collapse in the quality of journalism. Kent, Cronkite, Murrow, Bernstein, Rather, Jennings, Woodward, Sinclair, Green, Frum (Barbara, not her kid), all of the giants of my industry were union people. Hannity, O'Reilly, Breitbart, Beck, Ollbermann, Coulter, Grace, Blitzer, Drudge, Eklund, the list is massive, are not, and as such are not held to the same standard of conduct. (From a hockey fan standpoint, consider that the last major sports news organization that remains a union shop is TSN, and compare their quality of hockey coverage to other sources).

    So in this way, there's another aspect of the decline of unions that has hurt us as a society.

    [/QUOTE]


    According to this, the fall of the unions has created the desire for many to read Eklund's guesses.


    Causation is not implied by correlation, however.  The basis of the statement is false.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from skater68. Show skater68's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to WalkTheLine's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Not a fan of unions in general. Like Book, I don't view professional sports unions as true unions. An entitiy the bargains collectively doen not make it a union, especially when its average member makes significantly more than the average working stiff.

    Unions had their place and in some arenas still do. I still see unions as neccessary for some groups such as hotel workers but no longer needed in many industries. Auto workers for example. Public service unions are generally a bad idea, including teachers unions. If you want to understand why the US is lagging behind many other countries in education you can start with the teachers union. Prevailing wage laws in construction artificially inflate the cost of building public buildings. These are building built using our tax dollars. The teamsters have a history of organized crime. A friend of mne owns a business where an employee watched a machine malfunction and burn out (about a $150k loss) rather than shut it down because it wasn't his job and the union would bust him if he touched that machine. All he had to do was hit one button. There are lots of negatives to what unions have become IMO. So not a fan in general.

    [/QUOTE]


    Corruption in the unions has never cost this country what corruption in government and businesses has cost the taxpayers.

    This most recent fiasco with the US economy is in a long list of multi billion and trillion dollar loses caused by CEO and government policy makers .

    The blame game on unionized workers is getting old and hopefully the middle class will come to understand it's simply a ploy.

    And these lame stories " It's not my job" goes back to the Japanese takeover of the US auto industry. When the actual cause was lazy inefficient, greedy CEO's who didn't have the brains or foresight to upgrade the 50's era automobiles . Sitting on their fat *sses and watched the industry go down 

    The problem with the school system and unionized teachers is a typical example of shifting blame. The actual problem is local school boards that are only concerned with indoctrinating children with their " Christian" values at the expense of the children's education. And secondly the way the schools are funded. Most schools are primarily funded by real estate tax.why?Take a look at an upscale school in Beverly Hills the look at a school in the Kentucky Appalachians .

     

    The fall of the great middle class in the US is directly correlated to the "War on the unions"

     

     

     

     

     

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from heyoo. Show heyoo's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to skater68's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to WalkTheLine's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Not a fan of unions in general. Like Book, I don't view professional sports unions as true unions. An entitiy the bargains collectively doen not make it a union, especially when its average member makes significantly more than the average working stiff.

    Unions had their place and in some arenas still do. I still see unions as neccessary for some groups such as hotel workers but no longer needed in many industries. Auto workers for example. Public service unions are generally a bad idea, including teachers unions. If you want to understand why the US is lagging behind many other countries in education you can start with the teachers union. Prevailing wage laws in construction artificially inflate the cost of building public buildings. These are building built using our tax dollars. The teamsters have a history of organized crime. A friend of mne owns a business where an employee watched a machine malfunction and burn out (about a $150k loss) rather than shut it down because it wasn't his job and the union would bust him if he touched that machine. All he had to do was hit one button. There are lots of negatives to what unions have become IMO. So not a fan in general.

    [/QUOTE]


    Corruption in the unions has never cost this country what corruption in government and businesses has cost the taxpayers.

    This most recent fiasco with the US economy is in a long list of multi billion and trillion dollar loses caused by CEO and government policy makers .

    The blame game on unionized workers is getting old and hopefully the middle class will come to understand it's simply a ploy.

    And these lame stories " It's not my job" goes back to the Japanese takeover of the US auto industry. When the actual cause was lazy inefficient, greedy CEO's who didn't have the brains or foresight to upgrade the 50's era automobiles . Sitting on their fat *sses and watched the industry go down 

    The problem with the school system and unionized teachers is a typical example of shifting blame. The actual problem is local school boards that are only concerned with indoctrinating children with their " Christian" values at the expense of the children's education. And secondly the way the schools are funded. Most schools are primarily funded by real estate tax.why?Take a look at an upscale school in Beverly Hills the look at a school in the Kentucky Appalachians .

     

    The fall of the great middle class in the US is directly correlated to the "War on the unions"

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Agree 100%

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from skater68. Show skater68's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    " A friend of mne owns a business where an employee watched a machine malfunction and burn out (about a $150k loss) rather than shut it down because it wasn't his job and the union would bust him if he touched that machine. All he had to do was hit one button. There are lots of negatives to what unions have become IMO. So not a fan in general"

    I have to wonder about these stories and how they started and get passed along as hearsay. There's probably a lot more to it than this version. I'd have to hear the employee's version before I took it as credible. Employers have been known to stretch the truth and most have a general bias against unions

    The US Colleges and universities are some of the best in the world. The reason for the poor performance of the elementary level schools has more to do with political and cultural ideology than union teacher's

     

       

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from WalkTheLine. Show WalkTheLine's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to skater68's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to WalkTheLine's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Corruption in the unions has never cost this country what corruption in government and businesses has cost the taxpayers.

    I agree but that doesn't mean unions aren't part of the problem as well, even if they aren't the biggest part.

    This most recent fiasco with the US economy is in a long list of multi billion and trillion dollar loses caused by CEO and government policy makers .

    Partly true but that doesn't absolve the unions from their contribution to the mess.

    The blame game on unionized workers is getting old and hopefully the middle class will come to understand it's simply a ploy.

    If you read my post I didn't play the blame game. I stated some clear verifiable examples of problems caused by unions. I did not paint all unions with a broad brush. In fact I stated that some unions are needed. There is no ploy here.

    And these lame stories " It's not my job" goes back to the Japanese takeover of the US auto industry. When the actual cause was lazy inefficient, greedy CEO's who didn't have the brains or foresight to upgrade the 50's era automobiles . Sitting on their fat *sses and watched the industry go down 

    My example was not a "lame story". I know both the business owner and have met the employee who was such a union lacky he couldn't look at the bigger picture. In all fairness, the union steward followed up in a meeting and said it would have been okay in that situation to do someone else's job without getting in trouble.

    Your blaming "greedy CEOs" and the government is typical of a blind pro-union lackey. How about you admit there is blame enough to go around including the unions?

    The problem with the school system and unionized teachers is a typical example of shifting blame. The actual problem is local school boards that are only concerned with indoctrinating children with their " Christian" values at the expense of the children's education. And secondly the way the schools are funded. Most schools are primarily funded by real estate tax.why?Take a look at an upscale school in Beverly Hills the look at a school in the Kentucky Appalachians .

    Again, I don't disagree but the teachers union is part of the problem but not the only part. The boards of education and parents are also part of the problem. Look, I put 2 of my kids in private schools at great expense and sacrifice to my wife and I because of the problems in the public schools in my area. I KNOW where the fault lies in my school district and part of it falls squarely on the lap of the union.

     

    The fall of the great middle class in the US is directly correlated to the "War on the unions"

    Absurd. You sound like a guy who can't think for himself. I feel sorry for you my friend.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    I respectfully disagree with the quality control element of this discussion.  

    We have problems with unions, business, government, education....the list goes on forever.  All serve a basic need.  Nothing works more awkwardly than government.  It's a never ending process attempting to make it function better.  It's ludicrous to suggest we'd be better off without government.  Same for business, and same for unions.

    The basic purpose of a union, is to promote basic human rights, negotiate fair wages, and ensure a working balance throughout the hierarchy.  Attempting to blame, or credit them with much more is going outside their fundamental need, expertise, and value.  What they may have morphed into doesn't lesson their relevance, it merely suggests they suffer the same problems every other organization does.

    Work on the problems. 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from WalkTheLine. Show WalkTheLine's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to stevegm's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I respectfully disagree with the quality control element of this discussion.  

    We have problems with unions, business, government, education....the list goes on forever.  All serve a basic need.  Nothing works more awkwardly than government.  It's a never ending process attempting to make it function better.  It's ludicrous to suggest we'd be better off without government.  Same for business, and same for unions.

    The basic purpose of a union, is to promote basic human rights, negotiate fair wages, and ensure a working balance throughout the hierarchy.  Attempting to blame, or credit them with much more is going outside their fundamental need, expertise, and value.  What they may have morphed into doesn't lesson their relevance, it merely suggests they suffer the same problems every other organization does.

    Work on the problems. 

    [/QUOTE]I

    Nicely put. I was simply responding to the topic at hand which was unions. Plenty of other messed up entities out there as well.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to heyoo's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to skater68's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to WalkTheLine's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Not a fan of unions in general. Like Book, I don't view professional sports unions as true unions. An entitiy the bargains collectively doen not make it a union, especially when its average member makes significantly more than the average working stiff.

    Unions had their place and in some arenas still do. I still see unions as neccessary for some groups such as hotel workers but no longer needed in many industries. Auto workers for example. Public service unions are generally a bad idea, including teachers unions. If you want to understand why the US is lagging behind many other countries in education you can start with the teachers union. Prevailing wage laws in construction artificially inflate the cost of building public buildings. These are building built using our tax dollars. The teamsters have a history of organized crime. A friend of mne owns a business where an employee watched a machine malfunction and burn out (about a $150k loss) rather than shut it down because it wasn't his job and the union would bust him if he touched that machine. All he had to do was hit one button. There are lots of negatives to what unions have become IMO. So not a fan in general.

    [/QUOTE]


    Corruption in the unions has never cost this country what corruption in government and businesses has cost the taxpayers.

    This most recent fiasco with the US economy is in a long list of multi billion and trillion dollar loses caused by CEO and government policy makers .

    The blame game on unionized workers is getting old and hopefully the middle class will come to understand it's simply a ploy.

    And these lame stories " It's not my job" goes back to the Japanese takeover of the US auto industry. When the actual cause was lazy inefficient, greedy CEO's who didn't have the brains or foresight to upgrade the 50's era automobiles . Sitting on their fat *sses and watched the industry go down 

    The problem with the school system and unionized teachers is a typical example of shifting blame. The actual problem is local school boards that are only concerned with indoctrinating children with their " Christian" values at the expense of the children's education. And secondly the way the schools are funded. Most schools are primarily funded by real estate tax.why?Take a look at an upscale school in Beverly Hills the look at a school in the Kentucky Appalachians .

     

    The fall of the great middle class in the US is directly correlated to the "War on the unions"

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Agree 100%

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Not surprising you'd agree to something this outragerous! AS much as some points are a small percentage correct. This is too the extreme! 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    Billionaires vs. millionaires squabbling over an absurd amount of money. There is no way that I would call this union busting or standing up for union rights. 

    It's about the rich wanting to get richer..............on both sides. 

    The title of the thread should be reserved for the average Joe's union negotiating and their workplaces. Not the NHL and their $$$. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from skater68. Show skater68's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to stevegm's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I respectfully disagree with the quality control element of this discussion.  

    We have problems with unions, business, government, education....the list goes on forever.  All serve a basic need.  Nothing works more awkwardly than government.  It's a never ending process attempting to make it function better.  It's ludicrous to suggest we'd be better off without government.  Same for business, and same for unions.

    The basic purpose of a union, is to promote basic human rights, negotiate fair wages, and ensure a working balance throughout the hierarchy.  Attempting to blame, or credit them with much more is going outside their fundamental need, expertise, and value.  What they may have morphed into doesn't lesson their relevance, it merely suggests they suffer the same problems every other organization does.

    Work on the problems. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Great post.I agree.

     

     

     

    "Absurd. You sound like a guy who can't think for himself. I feel sorry for you my "friend

    I can understand someone disagreeing with me and even thinking that my point of view is "Absurd"

    However I don't understand why someone would label me as " brainwashed " and go on to say They feel sorry for me" 

    At any rate I thought you were making some valid points in the discussion before that statement

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from WalkTheLine. Show WalkTheLine's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to skater68's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to stevegm's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    "Absurd. You sound like a guy who can't think for himself. I feel sorry for you my "friend

    I can understand someone disagreeing with me and even thinking that my point of view is "Absurd"

    However I don't understand why someone would label me as " brainwashed " and go on to say They feel sorry for me" 

    At any rate I thought you were making some valid points in the discussion before that statement

    [/QUOTE]


    Ah, well you sounded alot like a union-can-do-no-wrong guy in your post.

    Chalk it up to a bad attitude at the time.....no worries...cheers!

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to WalkTheLine's comment:[/QUOTE] Corruption in the unions has never cost this country what corruption in government and businesses has cost the taxpayers.

    I agree but that doesn't mean unions aren't part of the problem as well, even if they aren't the biggest part.

    This most recent fiasco with the US economy is in a long list of multi billion and trillion dollar loses caused by CEO and government policy makers .

    Partly true but that doesn't absolve the unions from their contribution to the mess. [/QUOTE]


    I am Pro-Union WLH but you are so right that there are some cases were Unions are detrimental. A case in point is the San Diego City Union Pension. Librarians making $80K a year with a $350K pension out of taxpayer pockets. Talk about Government waste.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from skater68. Show skater68's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    I'm just saying

    And these numbers may not be totally accurate but close enough

    This last financial disaster between ,junk bonds and over valued mortgages and the auto industry and so on 

    3 trillion gone

    A San Diego librarian pension payout over 25 years 6,085,000

    Basically we could pay the pensions to 493,000 librarians in one day

    I'm just trying to illustrate that the name of the game is shift the attention on librarians,teachers, unions in general to keep us from looking the biggest problem.

     

    Now I'm not condoning the librarian salaries or pensions but let's go after the biggest problem and work our way back---  trickle down justice 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from scooter244. Show scooter244's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to Chowdahkid-'s comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Billionaires vs. millionaires squabbling over an absurd amount of money. There is no way that I would call this union busting or standing up for union rights. 

    It's about the rich wanting to get richer..............on both sides. 

    The title of the thread should be reserved for the average Joe's union negotiating and their workplaces. Not the NHL and their $$$. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Chowda, the point was do your real life beliefs or biases in regards to Unions influence your choosing sides in the hockey dispute.  Are pro Union people siding with the players and anti union folk with the owners. 

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to scooter244's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Chowdahkid-'s comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Billionaires vs. millionaires squabbling over an absurd amount of money. There is no way that I would call this union busting or standing up for union rights. 

    It's about the rich wanting to get richer..............on both sides. 

    The title of the thread should be reserved for the average Joe's union negotiating and their workplaces. Not the NHL and their $$$. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Chowda, the point was do your real life beliefs or biases in regards to Unions influence your choosing sides in the hockey dispute.  Are pro Union people siding with the players and anti union folk with the owners. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I was part of a union for over 30 years of my life. So I normally side with the union when I see companies trying to take away from the workers.

    How can I relate my experiences to a union where members have made millions of dollars ?

    This not a union the way I know it. We struggled financially in situations like this. 

    I side with neither. 

     

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand



    Chowda, the point was do your real life beliefs or biases in regards to Unions influence your choosing sides in the hockey dispute.  Are pro Union people siding with the players and anti union folk with the owners. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I was part of a union for over 30 years of my life. So I normally side with the union when I see companies trying to take away from the workers.

    How can I relate my experiences to a union where members have made millions of dollars ?

    This not a union the way I know it. We struggled financially in situations like this. 

    I side with neither. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Not trying to be argumentive here, but it seems the above is a textbook example of what seems to be a guiding principle.  The only thing different here, is the dollar signs.  Should the volume of money, change what we consider to be right/wrong, good/bad?

    Again, not looking to argue, just interested in your thoughts. 

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    In response to stevegm's comment:
    [QUOTE]



    Chowda, the point was do your real life beliefs or biases in regards to Unions influence your choosing sides in the hockey dispute.  Are pro Union people siding with the players and anti union folk with the owners. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I was part of a union for over 30 years of my life. So I normally side with the union when I see companies trying to take away from the workers.

    How can I relate my experiences to a union where members have made millions of dollars ?

    This not a union the way I know it. We struggled financially in situations like this. 

    I side with neither. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Not trying to be argumentive here, but it seems the above is a textbook example of what seems to be a guiding principle.  The only thing different here, is the dollar signs.  Should the volume of money, change what we consider to be right/wrong, good/bad?

    Again, not looking to argue, just interested in your thoughts. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Sure why not ? 

    Last I heard over 130 players have gone to Europe to make decent money ( where's their guiding principals ? ). Others live in their expensive homes living off their big bank accounts waiting for a resolution not having to worry about looking for work to survive. 

    Guiding principles for the average worker during work stoppages are based on losing/having to sell their homes or look for another job to provide for their families.  

    Guiding principals for NHL players are not based on the same concerns. 

    People are trying to compare the two. The NHLPA and their negotiations should be compared to other professional sports and what they have done in recent negotiations. Not Joe Schmoe's union and their fight for average wages. 

    Two different animals because of .........yes........... the volume of money involved.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from scooter244. Show scooter244's posts

    Re: Union Busting or Standing up for Union Rights- Where do you stand

    I

    Sure why not ? 

    Last I heard over 130 players have gone to Europe to make decent money ( where's their guiding principals ? ). Others live in their expensive homes living off their big bank accounts waiting for a resolution not having to worry about looking for work to survive. 

    Guiding principles for the average worker during work stoppages are based on losing/having to sell their homes or look for another job to provide for their families.  

    Guiding principals for NHL players are not based on the same concerns. 

    People are trying to compare the two. The NHLPA and their negotiations should be compared to other professional sports and what they have done in recent negotiations. Not Joe Schmoe's union and their fight for average wages. 

    Two different animals because of .........yes........... the volume of money involved.

    [/QUOTE]

    What about the fringe players, ones who may only have a year of two to play NHL Hockey?  Maybe they finally made the roster last year, and made the NHL minimum, and have lost a year's wages (presumably), and maybe will never get their roster spot back because a new crop of youger cheap players is on board.  Any sympathy for them?

     

Share