When Players Were Afraid of Goons

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:

    I really cannot believe the knowledgable hockey people on here that actually put Bob Probert in the goon cat as a Troy Crowder, Troy Malliet & Krzstiov Olyiwa! This is stuff I expected from the likes of Null, or heyoo. Extremely disappointing to say the least.




    I think you'll survive.



    Yep. I will

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    Guys that show up on the scoresheet should be exempt from "goon" status.  Terry O'Reilly is a great example that Chowdah provided.

    4 of the top-5 All-Time PIM leaders mix a blend of toughness and production:

    #1 Tiger Williams: 241 goals and 3966 PIMs

    #2 Dale Hunter: 323 goals/ 1020 PTS & 3563 PIMs

    #3 Tie Domi: Goon in my book w/ only 104 goals in 1020 games & 3515 PIMs

    #4 Marty McSorley: Versatile (F/D) tough-guy w/ 108 goals & 3381 PIMs

    #5 Bob Probert: 163 goals & 3300 PIMs

     

    Other notables:

    #10 Rick Tocchet: 440 goals/ 2972 PIMs

    #11 Pat Verbeek: 522 goals/ 2905 PIMs

    #12 Chris Chelios

    #14 Scott Stevens

    #22 Brendan Shanahan (how ironic)

    Plenty of guys rack up serious PIMs, not all should be considered goons.  If you can play, you can play, even if you like to mix it up.

     

     

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    I see McSorley and Hunter outside of the goon realm, and don't consider anyone from the second list to be a goon.  Williams, Probert and Domi (especially Domi) were goons in my book. 

    And others see it differently.  And that's okay.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    I see McSorley and Hunter outside of the goon realm, and don't consider anyone from the second list to be a goon.  Williams, Probert and Domi (especially Domi) were goons in my book. 

    And others see it differently.  And that's okay.



    Hunter wasn't really a goon, just a cheap shot artist, in my book.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    I agree, 50Below.  The problem here is that people are trying to use stats as the single measuring stick.  There is much more to it.  Stats give an easy generalization for many things, even this, but a closer look at individuals reveals a lot in my eyes.

     

    Side note on Dale Hunter:  He played from 1980 to 1999.  In that time, his Nordiques or Caps only missed the playoffs once.  186 games, 118 points, no Cups.  For a guy who is as competitve as Hunter, I bet this still keeps him up at night.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    Stats are an input to the overall analysis, but subjectivity probably carries the day.

    That said, stats are worth noting in an effort to shape point-of-view, no?  Not too different from these statements made in this thread...

    "Some guys had much lower goal totals, but if a player was able to ring up 398 PIM in one season, he's a goon in my book."

    "The problem here is that people are trying to use stats as the single measuring stick.  There is much more to it.  Stats give an easy generalization for many things, even this, but a closer look at individuals reveals a lot in my eyes."

    Too funny.

     

     

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:

    Stats are an input to the overall analysis, but subjectivity probably carries the day.

    That said, stats are worth noting in an effort to shape point-of-view, no?  Not too different from these statements made in this thread...

    "Some guys had much lower goal totals, but if a player was able to ring up 398 PIM in one season, he's a goon in my book."

    "The problem here is that people are trying to use stats as the single measuring stick.  There is much more to it.  Stats give an easy generalization for many things, even this, but a closer look at individuals reveals a lot in my eyes."

    Too funny.



    That's exactly right, Crowls.  I'm well aware that Probert got those PIM for mainly fighting, and I watched Probert play for many years, so I'm able to make that determination in my mind.  But, you know, welcome to the "Try to Catch NAS Crew".  It's a boring and empty club, basically spent pouring over my posts and misrepresenting the ideas in them on order to prove me wrong.

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:

    Stats are an input to the overall analysis, but subjectivity probably carries the day.

    That said, stats are worth noting in an effort to shape point-of-view, no?  Not too different from these statements made in this thread...

    "Some guys had much lower goal totals, but if a player was able to ring up 398 PIM in one season, he's a goon in my book."

    "The problem here is that people are trying to use stats as the single measuring stick.  There is much more to it.  Stats give an easy generalization for many things, even this, but a closer look at individuals reveals a lot in my eyes."

    Too funny.



    That's exactly right, Crowls.  I'm well aware that Probert got those PIM for mainly fighting, and I watched Probert play for many years, so I'm able to make that determination in my mind.  But, you know, welcome to the "Try to Catch NAS Crew".  It's a boring and empty club, basically spent pouring over my posts and misrepresenting the ideas in them on order to prove me wrong.

     



    NAS, I'm sorry but I think what the issue is that "so I'm able to make that determination in my mind." isn't enough of a justification of putting a Bob Probert type into the same catorgory as a Troy Crowder. I'm not being pissy with you, or being a smart alec when I say that I'm able to make a determination on how there are times when you ask a fellow blogger for "facts" to base their opinion on something. However, you don't seem to always offer the same of what you ask for from oithers. You know I respect your knowledge. I don't make any bones in admitting that to you. Having said that, I think what bothers a lot of others is that you come across sometimes as "cause NAS says it so it's the law!" but if you disagree with someone else's "determination" you want answers from them. Don't get me wrong. You're not the only here who's this way, but you seem to making a lot of comments about "people going out of their way to prove NAS wrong" lately. So I figured I'd chime in and say why that maybe.  

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:

    Stats are an input to the overall analysis, but subjectivity probably carries the day.

    That said, stats are worth noting in an effort to shape point-of-view, no?  Not too different from these statements made in this thread...

    "Some guys had much lower goal totals, but if a player was able to ring up 398 PIM in one season, he's a goon in my book."

    "The problem here is that people are trying to use stats as the single measuring stick.  There is much more to it.  Stats give an easy generalization for many things, even this, but a closer look at individuals reveals a lot in my eyes."

    Too funny.



    That's exactly right, Crowls.  I'm well aware that Probert got those PIM for mainly fighting, and I watched Probert play for many years, so I'm able to make that determination in my mind.  But, you know, welcome to the "Try to Catch NAS Crew".  It's a boring and empty club, basically spent pouring over my posts and misrepresenting the ideas in them on order to prove me wrong.

     




    Nope, no conspiracy here.  Just tried to make the point that many of us use stats (data) in an effort to support our positions. 

    I haven't been around the board for awhile, so I am not fully up to speed on the "Try to Catch NAS Crew".  A little suprised to hear that you haven't been making friends though (dripping with sarcasm)?  That said, I am also guessing you'll be ok though, as you give as good as you get.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    Oh yeah, I'll be fine.  These days around here, with nothing to talk about, it's pretty much war every day.  I'm not sure why we all return , but I would guess it's because we've been doing it for years and chatting with our Bruins friends is just part of the day to day routine (zombies to the mall?).

    I've always considered Probert a goon.  I always will.  He was no skating clown, but was a goon.  I would have been thrilled to have him as a Bruin.  His effectiveness was 1,000 times greater than useless Shawn Thornton. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    Oh yeah, I'll be fine.  These days around here, with nothing to talk about, it's pretty much war every day.  I'm not sure why we all return , but I would guess it's because we've been doing it for years and chatting with our Bruins friends is just part of the day to day routine (zombies to the mall?).

    I've always considered Probert a goon.  I always will.  He was no skating clown, but was a goon.  I would have been thrilled to have him as a Bruin.  His effectiveness was 1,000 times greater than useless Shawn Thornton. 



    See now this kind of helps to explain your position a bit better. You don't consider being a "goon" as being necessarily a derogatory thing. So you really don't consider a Troy Crowder type a "goon", but more of the skating clown variety? Is that what you're saying? Or, do you just have more than one definition of goon & only one definition of "skating clown".

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:

    Stats are an input to the overall analysis, but subjectivity probably carries the day.

    That said, stats are worth noting in an effort to shape point-of-view, no?  Not too different from these statements made in this thread...

    "Some guys had much lower goal totals, but if a player was able to ring up 398 PIM in one season, he's a goon in my book."

    "The problem here is that people are trying to use stats as the single measuring stick.  There is much more to it.  Stats give an easy generalization for many things, even this, but a closer look at individuals reveals a lot in my eyes."

    Too funny.



    That's exactly right, Crowls.  I'm well aware that Probert got those PIM for mainly fighting, and I watched Probert play for many years, so I'm able to make that determination in my mind.  But, you know, welcome to the "Try to Catch NAS Crew".  It's a boring and empty club, basically spent pouring over my posts and misrepresenting the ideas in them on order to prove me wrong.

     



    An infinite list of posters that base their differing replies on your "different way of thinking" ( a kind description ) with some of your posts ( not all ).

    I see this as the reason more then the reasons you have given. 

    Comparatively, Heyoo, Stanley and more recently, bim, get the same type of responses.

     
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