Why Goal Scoring Is Down

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    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

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    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : Kel. Do your pads have that much overhang above the knee?  One thing I'll say to you, because you'll comprehend it a little better. Isn't it funny how the "players" get to increase their protection, their shot & puck control to gain an advantage, but "goalies" are considered cheaters, or babies when they want to do something to help them do their job better. Nothing drives me to my short trip to crazy than people who have double standards. 
    Posted by nitemare-38


    I wear 34 + 2 Vaughn Velocity 3..I also wear the Vaughn knee wraps. I took out the thigh boards, and when the puck sneaks through If I didnt have the thigh wraps the pain is undescribable. It's basically puck on knee cap.. I know we sound like babies, i get it, but if you look at a players shin pads, shoulder pads and pants from 20 years ago and from players today, they are double in size and a much harder plastic..Now I have the same glove as Tuuka and what price wore last year, the Vaughn Epic 8800..However if you look at mine and theirs they are totally different. Their gloves have mods (modifications) and have much more palm protection...

    Now, if we put goalies in the gear Doug Keans used to wear would their be more goals? Of course, If we put players in the gear Larry Robinson wore, would they be blocking as many shots? Not in a million years...Your not going to change the equipment goalies or players wear today, won't happen..Now if the game went back to the late 80's in terms of style, not only would their be more goals but it would be more entertaining...

    That said, goaltenders today are 10 times the better athlete than the goalies of yesterday, with a few exceptions...No other position has evolved like a goalie in hockey. Remember all those goals Cam Neely scored barrelling down the right wing and ripping a slapper from just inside the blue line? A back up high school goalie steers that into the corner with ease today...So the position and the equipment evolving at the same time proabably hasnt helped matters.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : Kel. Do your pads have that much overhang above the knee?  One thing I'll say to you, because you'll comprehend it a little better. Isn't it funny how the "players" get to increase their protection, their shot & puck control to gain an advantage, but "goalies" are considered cheaters, or babies when they want to do something to help them do their job better. Nothing drives me to my short trip to crazy than people who have double standards. 
    Posted by nitemare-38


    There have been plenty of threads talking about the armor that the skaters wear.  Only a goalie would defend the foolish gear these goalies are wearing these days.


     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

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    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : Go on line & type in "average speed of NHL slapshots" NAS. I'm not that far off. 85-92 is the range they give. You want to middle that range? Fine 89mph. I'm not a "big goalie" look at my gear in my profile pic. That pic was taken 2 mos ago with my old Reebok pads that were 34 + 1 @ 12" width. So, I'm even smaller with the "legal" size Baurer's. I never said the sticks are too good. I said they certainly have a difference in the ave speed. These players didn't get the same flex with a piece of hickory, or aluminium that they get now NAS. Do you still play the game? Do you not notice a difference in your shot? If you don't then chances are you didn't have much of a shot to begin with. If you notice a difference than what's wrong with what I said? If the shots are harder & faster, would it not be necessary to add more cushion to take force of the blow? It's not an excuse. It's a fact that's been proven by science. Do some goalie's take it to the extreme? Absolutely. Garth Snow's gear was a joke, but to say goalie's use the stick as an excuse is also on the extreme side.
    Posted by nitemare-38


    "Firing on average at an approximate rate of 91mph for NHL players..."  This mentions nothing of the slapshot.

    And yes, I do still play.  I use wood.  I love it.


     
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    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : Completely agree with this ^.  I regret that the goalies here are taking offense to this discussion.  I think it takes a lot of courage (and a few loose screws) to play goalie and of course they deserve adequate protection. But that's not what we're talking about here.  We're talking about padding that is designed to take up space, not protect the goalies.  Surely everyone agrees that this happens sometimes, right?  Everyone is looking for an advantage.  I agree with Oates that one (of several) factors that are slowing down the game and encouraging the trap is that the spaces to shoot at in the net have declined drastically.  I sure some of that padding is necessary for goalies protection.  I also think that some of it isn't.  The league should take a look at it.  That's all.
    Posted by Fletcher1

    I'm no science teacher & I do & have even said that there's some goalies who take things to the extreme. Even coaches. How many rules were adopted or changed because of Roger Neileson? What I am saying is that (Quicks picture not withstanding) how do you diminish the force of the puck without bulking up on the arm gear. I face the odd 90, but guessing most of the shots I face are in the 70-80mph range. 

    I don't wear Michelin Man gear, but I don't wear some cloth padding, with some Styrofoam patch's either. I don't play butterfly, because I'm too "old school" & I try to stay on my feet as much as possible. However, as new as my gear is; I still get the stingers. I wasn't taking offense against any posters. My beef was someone saying that the "goalies" were making excuses to use the bigger gear. I say it's more for protection (Quicks Pads not withstanding) than it is excuse. If there's a way to still protect & reduce the football size arm pads I'm all for it! 

    The pad situation is easily solved. You go by the goalies height & he's only allowed so much length. You can't go by a standard, because all goalie's are not shaped the same. Some goalies, have longer torsoe's & shorter legs. While others are the opposite. You can make a limit to the length & do the "Chara rule" when necessary. The extensions on Quick's pads are to cover the 5 hole nothing more, nothing less.
     
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    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : There have been plenty of threads talking about the armor that the skaters wear.  Only a goalie would defend the foolish gear these goalies are wearing these days.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot

    NAS. Please read my post previous to this. I'm not defending them. I'm saying it's necessary unitl they can find a solution to the take the force of impact. I'm with you on what Quick is wearing. It's almost as bad as when Tony O' used fishing net between his legs unitl he got caught. 
     
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    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : They don't need any hard plastic when they have a Jordan's Furniture sectional strapped to their upper body!
    Posted by Not-A-Shot

    Bawhaaaa! I don't care who you are that's funny right there!!!
     
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    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

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    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : and now something new to whine about.  you're all such a bunch of babies. now shut up and get back in the crease.
    Posted by BadHabitude

    Yes coach! Wait, can I have that extra padding put on my elbows first?Laughing
     
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    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : I wear 34 + 2 Vaughn Velocity 3..I also wear the Vaughn knee wraps. I took out the thigh boards, and when the puck sneaks through If I didnt have the thigh wraps the pain is undescribable. It's basically puck on knee cap.. I know we sound like babies, i get it, but if you look at a players shin pads, shoulder pads and pants from 20 years ago and from players today, they are double in size and a much harder plastic..Now I have the same glove as Tuuka and what price wore last year, the Vaughn Epic 8800..However if you look at mine and theirs they are totally different. Their gloves have mods (modifications) and have much more palm protection... Now, if we put goalies in the gear Doug Keans used to wear would their be more goals? Of course, If we put players in the gear Larry Robinson wore, would they be blocking as many shots? Not in a million years...Your not going to change the equipment goalies or players wear today, won't happen..Now if the game went back to the late 80's in terms of style, not only would their be more goals but it would be more entertaining... That said, goaltenders today are 10 times the better athlete than the goalies of yesterday, with a few exceptions...No other position has evolved like a goalie in hockey. Remember all those goals Cam Neely scored barrelling down the right wing and ripping a slapper from just inside the blue line? A back up high school goalie steers that into the corner with ease today...So the position and the equipment evolving at the same time proabably hasnt helped matters.
    Posted by kelvana33

    Do you find the wraps helps better with the movement Kel? I like the thigh boards, but sometimes they get caught under the thigh of my pants. Usually happens right after I do the 2 pad stack. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : I wear 34 + 2 Vaughn Velocity 3..I also wear the Vaughn knee wraps. I took out the thigh boards, and when the puck sneaks through If I didnt have the thigh wraps the pain is undescribable. It's basically puck on knee cap.. I know we sound like babies, i get it, but if you look at a players shin pads, shoulder pads and pants from 20 years ago and from players today, they are double in size and a much harder plastic..Now I have the same glove as Tuuka and what price wore last year, the Vaughn Epic 8800..However if you look at mine and theirs they are totally different. Their gloves have mods (modifications) and have much more palm protection... Now, if we put goalies in the gear Doug Keans used to wear would their be more goals? Of course, If we put players in the gear Larry Robinson wore, would they be blocking as many shots? Not in a million years...Your not going to change the equipment goalies or players wear today, won't happen..Now if the game went back to the late 80's in terms of style, not only would their be more goals but it would be more entertaining... That said, goaltenders today are 10 times the better athlete than the goalies of yesterday, with a few exceptions...No other position has evolved like a goalie in hockey. Remember all those goals Cam Neely scored barrelling down the right wing and ripping a slapper from just inside the blue line? A back up high school goalie steers that into the corner with ease today...So the position and the equipment evolving at the same time proabably hasnt helped matters.
    Posted by kelvana33

    Kel, this is where your argument stalls out. Goalies are able to simply steer those pucks to the corner now because there is no open space for shooters from that angle anymore. The space didn't disappear due to athleticism from the tenders. It disappeared because the gear is larger.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : I wear 34 + 2 Vaughn Velocity 3..I also wear the Vaughn knee wraps. I took out the thigh boards, and when the puck sneaks through If I didnt have the thigh wraps the pain is undescribable. It's basically puck on knee cap.. I know we sound like babies, i get it, but if you look at a players shin pads, shoulder pads and pants from 20 years ago and from players today, they are double in size and a much harder plastic..Now I have the same glove as Tuuka and what price wore last year, the Vaughn Epic 8800..However if you look at mine and theirs they are totally different. Their gloves have mods (modifications) and have much more palm protection... Now, if we put goalies in the gear Doug Keans used to wear would their be more goals? Of course, If we put players in the gear Larry Robinson wore, would they be blocking as many shots? Not in a million years...Your not going to change the equipment goalies or players wear today, won't happen..Now if the game went back to the late 80's in terms of style, not only would their be more goals but it would be more entertaining... That said, goaltenders today are 10 times the better athlete than the goalies of yesterday, with a few exceptions...No other position has evolved like a goalie in hockey. Remember all those goals Cam Neely scored barrelling down the right wing and ripping a slapper from just inside the blue line? A back up high school goalie steers that into the corner with ease today...So the position and the equipment evolving at the same time proabably hasnt helped matters.
    Posted by kelvana33


    exaggeration
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : Kel, this is where your argument stalls out. Goalies are able to simply steer those pucks to the corner now because there is no open space for shooters from that angle anymore. The space didn't disappear due to athleticism from the tenders. It disappeared because the gear is larger.
    Posted by dezaruchi


    exaggeration
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : They don't need any hard plastic when they have a Jordan's Furniture sectional strapped to their upper body!
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    exaggeration
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : Kel, this is where your argument stalls out. Goalies are able to simply steer those pucks to the corner now because there is no open space for shooters from that angle anymore. The space didn't disappear due to athleticism from the tenders. It disappeared because the gear is larger.
    Posted by dezaruchi

    Some of that is true, but what Kel says is also true. Look back at some of Cam's goals Dez. If more goalie's played butterfly back then instead of standing up. Some of those along the ice far corner shots don't go in. 
     
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    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : Some of that is true, but what Kel says is also true. Look back at some of Cam's goals Dez. If more goalie's played butterfly back then instead of standing up. Some of those along the ice far corner shots don't go in. 
    Posted by nitemare-38

    Look at a goalie from the 70's just standing there cutting down the angle at the top of the crease. Now look at a modern goalie standing in the exact same spot. In one picture you can see far more net than in the other.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : Look at a goalie from the 70's just standing there cutting down the angle at the top of the crease. Now look at a modern goalie standing in the exact same spot. In one picture you can see far more net than in the other.
    Posted by dezaruchi

    this has run right off the rails.  Look at a player from the 70's, he's about 5'8" and 175 lbs.

    all ya all take a cool drink and come back in 20 minutes after you've all settled down.

     
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    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : Kel, this is where your argument stalls out. Goalies are able to simply steer those pucks to the corner now because there is no open space for shooters from that angle anymore. The space didn't disappear due to athleticism from the tenders. It disappeared because the gear is larger.
    Posted by dezaruchi


    The butterfly plays some part in that Dez. Goalies for the most part used to be the least athletic guy on the ice, now, theyre gymnasts in goalei gear. Quick can move his body laterally while in a full split, and go back to the full split in about 2 seconds. Look at footage from goalies of yesterday and then today, it's not even close.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : Look at a goalie from the 70's just standing there cutting down the angle at the top of the crease. Now look at a modern goalie standing in the exact same spot. In one picture you can see far more net than in the other.
    Posted by dezaruchi

    Dez. I agree, but where Kel is saying that the athleticism is better he isn't wrong. Put that same gear on a goalie who plays 70-80's style even with the bigger gear & the size of the gear would help, but if still tried to play standup he'd still get burned a heck of a lot more than a goalie of today's game. 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : Some of that is true, but what Kel says is also true. Look back at some of Cam's goals Dez. If more goalie's played butterfly back then instead of standing up. Some of those along the ice far corner shots don't go in. 
    Posted by nitemare-38


    While I agree with the slapper goals crossing the blueline Neely was Patrick Roy's "beat noire " the best butterfly goalie at that time.  Why ?  because his quick release off of the pass (onetimer) that would sneak in under the butterfly.
    So much space down low when the goalies are going down on their position.
    Today though besides the equipment the goalies are just so quick and move fast side to side, as Kel is saying it's a new bread and they're much more athletic.
     
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    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : this has run right off the rails.  Look at a player from the 70's, he's about 5'8" and 175 lbs. all ya all take a cool drink and come back in 20 minutes after you've all settled down.
    Posted by BadHabitude

    Maybe you should just stay out of it if you've got nothing to add. People are having a rational conversation that doesn't need a mediator. Especially one that can't talk a waiter into moving a table away from his face. You strike me as the guy who talks just so he can hear his own voice.
    Ken Dryden-6'4
    Gilles Gilbert-6'1
    Tim Thomas-5'11
    Halak-5'11
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : The butterfly plays some part in that Dez. Goalies for the most part used to be the least athletic guy on the ice, now, theyre gymnasts in goalei gear. Quick can move his body laterally while in a full split, and go back to the full split in about 2 seconds. Look at footage from goalies of yesterday and then today, it's not even close.
    Posted by kelvana33

    Kel. This is another reason why I don't worry too much about TT's age & what a lot of people forget. Look at the hybrid style goalie's vs the butterfly goalie's? The hybrid's get injured less often. It doesn't take the same toll on the body as butterfly does. TT, Brodeur, Roloson, Hasek et al are prime examples of goalie's that extended their careers, because of that style. They have less groin issues & knee problems because of they're not going into the splits & dropping to their knees as often.
     
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    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : Kel. This is another reason why I don't worry too much about TT's age & what a lot of people forget. Look at the hybrid style goalie's vs the butterfly goalie's? The hybrid's get injured less often. It doesn't take the same toll on the body as butterfly does. TT, Brodeur, Roloson, Hasek et al are prime examples of goalie's that extended their careers, because of that style. They have less groin issues & knee problems because of they're not going into the splits & dropping to their knees as often.
    Posted by nitemare-38

    To be clear, I get that goalies are better on average nowadays. For years people joked that goalies were the worst athletes on the team and that's just not true anymore. I don't hear it talked about much but I think the lighter goalie pads must make a huge difference too. The old school goalie gear seemed alot heavier, especially after it got soaked.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : To be clear, I get that goalies are better on average nowadays. For years people joked that goalies were the worst athletes on the team and that's just not true anymore. I don't hear it talked about much but I think the lighter goalie pads must make a huge difference too. The old school goalie gear seemed alot heavier, especially after it got soaked.
    Posted by dezaruchi

    UGH! That old deerhide kief was the worst Dez! Especially in tournaments when you had to play 3 games in one day. Why do you think you used to see the goalie's scrape their crease so much? Goalie's still do it now, but for different reasons. In the deerhide filled pad days it was to soak up the water around the crease. Now it's to stop the newer material from sticking to the ice when the pad touches the ice.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : To be clear, I get that goalies are better on average nowadays. For years people joked that goalies were the worst athletes on the team and that's just not true anymore. I don't hear it talked about much but I think the lighter goalie pads must make a huge difference too. The old school goalie gear seemed alot heavier, especially after it got soaked.
    Posted by dezaruchi

    I wasn't a great & still not a great skater. I wished I learned to skate better, before I donned the pads, but my first coach was an ex-goalie & he tried us all in net. He said I had cat like reflexes & I was hooked. He tried to get me to learn to skate better, but I only wanted to stop pucks, not skate. I hurt my developement, but I actually learned how to bait players to do what I wanted them to do. On a 2 on 0 for instance to get away from them doing this passing back & forth. I'd let the puck carrier see a little more glove, or blocker. Then he'd go for the shot. I had one coach who tried to tell me not to do that until after my first game playing for him. I stopped 3 2 on 1's a 2 on 0 & a breakaway. Allowed 2 goals on deflections. He asked me years later why I played that style & I told him. My skating sukked, so on a two on zero trying to stand up & move laterally I was screwed. So, I figured since my reflexes was my greatest asset. Why not try to make them test that instead of my skating. 
     
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    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : I wasn't a great & still not a great skater. I wished I learned to skate better, before I donned the pads, but my first coach was an ex-goalie & he tried us all in net. He said I had cat like relexes & I was hooked. He tried to get me to learn to skate better, but I only wanted to stop pucks, not skate. I hurt my developement, but I actually learned how to bait players to do what I wanted them to do. On a 2 on 0 for instance to get away from them doing this passing back & forth. I'd let the puck carrier see a little more glove, or blocker. Then he'd go for the shot. I had one coach who tried to tell me not to do that until after my first game playing for him. I stopped 3 2 on 1's a 2 on 0 & a breakaway. Allowed 2 goals on deflections. He asked me years later why I played that style & I told him. My skating sukked, so on a two on zero trying to stand up & move laterally I was screwed. So, I figured since my reflexes was my greatest asset. Why not try to make them test that instead of my skating. 
    Posted by nitemare-38

    TT would agree with you Nite.....whatever it takes to keep the puck out.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BruinsNumber4. Show BruinsNumber4's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : I didn't say I hate the Rangers. I think you're allowing your hate of Dale Hunter and your love of the Fonz to cloud your judgement. Both teams are employing the same strategies. That's why they played the most boring triple OT game in history. Blaming Hunter and the Caps for the degradation of the game comes off more as sour grapes than anything remotely factual. BTW, you're not the first person to call me insane. Just the first one today.
    Posted by dezaruchi


    if you disagree thats fine, but don't run down my point of view when you have yet to provided anything to discuss, all you do is make staements like "the rangers play the same as the caps" wheres your factual basis?, by the way as i write this the caps are doing exactly what ive been talking about. but im not gonna argue with myself, it doesnt appear you have anything to say, at least i stated my point of view
     
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