Why Goal Scoring Is Down

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : Maybe you should just stay out of it if you've got nothing to add. People are having a rational conversation that doesn't need a mediator. Especially one that can't talk a waiter into moving a table away from his face. You strike me as the guy who talks just so he can hear his own voice. Ken Dryden-6'4 Gilles Gilbert-6'1 Tim Thomas-5'11 Halak-5'11
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]

    PLAYER from the 70's

    And comparing to the 70's is apples and oranges to some degree.  When the puck was behind his net controlled by an opposing player I saw Gilles Gilbert turn and face his own net to watch the guy - and saw that more than once.  No goaltender would do that today.  So goaltending has become more scientific.  When was the last time you saw a kick save?  This in addition to being more athletic.

    Part of this equipment discussion is balanced out on both side.  Players equipment has tons of cotton and even wool that absorbed water like crazy and weighed 4 tons late in the game also.

    This has always been an issue.  I distinctly remember one game where they found the bottom of Dryden's pads were too wide so they taped them up to be narrower.  And in that day and age everyone waited while it happened.

    And in that day and age they warmed up the new goalie if one of them got chased.  They don't do that now, advantage forwards.

    And speaking of netting, I believe that a few guys tried something similar with a sort of netting on their catching gloves to prevent pucks from rolling up their arms.

    The more things change, the more they stay the same.

    If you don't want to see goals scored, watch soccer.

    If you want to see points scored every second, watch basketball.

    I think it's fine just the way it is.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : if you disagree thats fine, but don't run down my point of view when you have yet to provided anything to discuss, all you do is make staements like "the rangers play the same as the caps" wheres your factual basis?, by the way as i write this the caps are doing exactly what ive been talking about. but im not gonna argue with myself, it doesnt appear you have anything to say, at least i stated my point of view
    Posted by BruinsNumber4[/QUOTE]
    You didn't state anything specific. That's the problem. I asked for you to give specific examples of what the Rangers do different and you came back with a nickname for their coach and no real answer as to why they're winning games in which they only take 14 shots. You're acting like you've got a secret that you can't be bothered to share. Sorry that wanting you to explain the basis for your opinion became such a problem. Truth be told, I don't really care. I had just hoped you were going to share some pearl of wisdom but I was wrong. Maybe if I wasn't "insane" I'd be able to get your point. Poor me.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : PLAYER from the 70's And comparing to the 70's is apples and oranges to some degree.  When the puck was behind his net controlled by an opposing player I saw Gilles Gilbert turn and face his own net to watch the guy - and saw that more than once.  No goaltender would do that today.  So goaltending has become more scientific.  When was the last time you saw a kick save?  This in addition to being more athletic. Part of this equipment discussion is balanced out on both side.  Players equipment has tons of cotton and even wool that absorbed water like crazy and weighed 4 tons late in the game also. This has always been an issue.  I distinctly remember one game where they found the bottom of Dryden's pads were too wide so they taped them up to be narrower.  And in that day and age everyone waited while it happened. And in that day and age they warmed up the new goalie if one of them got chased.  They don't do that now, advantage forwards. And speaking of netting, I believe that a few guys tried something similar with a sort of netting on their catching gloves to prevent pucks from rolling up their arms. The more things change, the more they stay the same. If you don't want to see goals scored, watch soccer. If you want to see points scored every second, watch basketball. I think it's fine just the way it is.
    Posted by BadHabitude[/QUOTE]
    I'm not the one who jumped in and told everyone to "take a look at a player from the 70's". Why would you tell me to do that if you didn't really want me to?
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : I'm not the one who jumped in and told everyone to "take a look at a player from the 70's". Why would you tell me to do that if you didn't really want me to?
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]

    Right, distracted by the detail. 
    Hardly sceintific, but 12 goalies I can think of from the 70's

    Gilles Villemure 5'8" 170
    Gilles Meloche 5'8" 170
    Rogatien Vachon 5'8" 160
    Bernie Parent 5' 10" 170
    Ed Giacomin 5'11" 180
    Tony O 5'11" 185
    Gerry Cheevers 5' 11" 180
    Eddie Johnston 6' 190
    Dan Bouchard 6' 190
    Phil Myre 6' 1" 180
    Cesare Maniago 6'2" 175
    Dave Dryden 6'2" 186

    Ken Dryden - the biggest goalie of the league at 6'4" 207

    Note - only 1 is over 200 and only 1 over 6'2"

    12 Goalies off the top of my head today
    TT 5'11" 201
    Halak 5'11" 182
    Giguere 6'1" 201
    Rask 6'2" 165
    Bryz 6'3" 209
    Lundqvist 6'1 198
    Holtdy 6'1" 201
    Quick 6'1" 223
    Fleury 6'1" 172
    Price 6'3" 219
    Mason 6'4" 220
    Rinne 6'5 207

    No one under 5'11", most all over 200.

    Again, hardly scientific, but it sure looks to me like the goalies are way bigger than what they were.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : Right, distracted by the detail.  Hardly sceintific, but 12 goalies I can think of from the 70's Gilles Villemure 5'8" 170 Gilles Meloche 5'8" 170 Rogatien Vachon 5'8" 160 Bernie Parent 5' 10" 170 Ed Giacomin 5'11" 180 Tony O 5'11" 185 Gerry Cheevers 5' 11" 180 Eddie Johnston 6' 190 Dan Bouchard 6' 190 Phil Myre 6' 1" 180 Cesare Maniago 6'2" 175 Dave Dryden 6'2" 186 Ken Dryden - the biggest goalie of the league at 6'4" 207 Note - only 1 is over 200 and only 1 over 6'2" 12 Goalies off the top of my head today TT 5'11" 201 Halak 5'11" 182 Giguere 6'1" 201 Rask 6'2" 165 Bryz 6'3" 209 Lundqvist 6'1 198 Holtdy 6'1" 201 Quick 6'1" 223 Fleury 6'1" 172 Price 6'3" 219 Mason 6'4" 220 Rinne 6'5 207 No one under 5'11", most all over 200. Again, hardly scientific, but it sure looks to me like the goalies are way bigger than what they were.
    Posted by BadHabitude[/QUOTE]
    So what takes up more space, an inch of body or an inch of pads?
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    NHL rules today
    paraphrashed relevant portions of course;

    pads not to exceed 11" in width
    catching gloave 18"
    waffle 8" x 15"
    rules for pads are by a formula based on player's length of leg

    And I can't find a rule book from the 70's, but goalie pads were changed in width from 12" to 10" in the 1927-28 season, so it seems they've changed that more than a few times.



     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]NHL rules today http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26287   paraphrashed relevant portions of course; pads not to exceed 11" in width catching gloave 18" waffle 8" x 15" rules for pads are by a formula based on player's length of leg And I can't find a rule book from the 70's, but goalie pads were changed in width from 12" to 10" in the 1927-28 season, so it seems they've changed that more than a few times.
    Posted by BadHabitude[/QUOTE]
    Bottom line is they could definitely use smaller blockers and trappers without affecting safety at all. That really rewards the more athletic tenders.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : So what takes up more space, an inch of body or an inch of pads?
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]

    It's both, the goalies are bigger and add *any* padding makes them still bigger.

    And the players are bigger, their equipment is lighter and doesn't absorb water and the sticks are much better.  And it took the shootout for guys to make a real study of the breakaway and shooting in general.

    Is everyone really all that dissatisfied with the amount of scoring in the NHL?

    A 3-2 game is just fine in my opinion.  And I don't know what the average is in this year's playoffs, but I would bet it is above that.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Babajingo. Show Babajingo's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    I played net from youth hockey to div 2 college (late 80s).  Took a break until '08 and joined a beer league.  My dad still had my old equipment in the basement (not the nicest smell). When I bought my new gear, I kinda did a compare.  
    Actually, the blocker was not that different.  The catcher glove is ridiculous.  The webbing and the protective part where the wrist is, is so much bigger.   The other peice that I was amazed at, was the chest protector.  It has so much more "extensions" above the shoulder and under the arms.  I understand some of it is for protection, especially at the pro level.  But that doesnt mean you can make the same size protector/glove with better material.
    The pads actually weren't that bad, except for the flap between the legs.  They also are a bit wider, not sure how much.

    I will say the equipment is so much more lighter, especially the pads.  That makes the goalies more agile and quicker.  Add to that, the athelitic abilities of the new goalies is much better.

    Don't kid yourself though.  The forwards have advanced too. The composite sticks provide so much more power behind the shots.

    One thing that I have noticed that most people don't recognize is rebound control.  Older equipment was much softer than the new stuff.  So a hard shot at any piece of equipment except the stick just bounces right back out.  With the softer equipment, it would absorb and drop down in front of the goalie.

    I think that if they just regulate the pads and catcher more closely, that would help.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down


    Another factor.
    Back in my day (70's) there was concerted effort not to kill your goalie in practice, keep the puck low because getting hit in the mask was still a big deal.  And I believe that practice translated to games where shots were generally lower.

    So isn't it better for hockey that you can shoot as hard as you like at goalies nowadays?  And from my experience in pickup, the goalers only get bent out of shape if they get run or stick to goalie contact is made.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from pauly1. Show pauly1's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    Yet another stupid thread, the goalie pad thing has been beatin to death by just about everyone,every where. Get some original material please
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from pauly1. Show pauly1's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    The dog is a quality poster, rarely comes up with repeat garbage like this.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from fourrings. Show fourrings's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In response to "Why Goal Scoring Is Down": [QUOTE]We starting talking about this in a different thread, but wanted it to continue.  In watching the Kings/Blues game today, I saw the perfect example of why goals are down.  Check out this low quality pic I took of a paused net cam. Remember that pads are supposed to keep the goalie from being hurt. Posted by Not-A-Shot[/QUOTE] That extra is needed, when you go down butterfly style the area just above your knees gets exposed, cant tell you how many times i have gotten hit there directly. The equipment is smaller these days, i have my old glove and my new one which is smaller to comply with new nhl regulations
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    Why scoring is down is this year as compared to the last few years.  So the argument/thread is valid.  If a problem is not solved then it is worth debating.  
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down


    Alright so we can say the equipment has a lot to do with it although one of the major reasons are " the systems" .
    We can go all the way back to 2000.  When the Leafs ONLY TOOK 6 SHOTS ON NET !   
    I bet tomorrow night the Rangers will not take more than 20 shots on goal in Washington.

    Here's the link of that incredible 6 shot playoffs game by the Leafs in an elimination game.
    LRH do you recall ?

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hockey/nhl/2000/playoffs/news/2000/05/08/leafs_devils_game6_ap/
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    there were 10 goals scored a game between the pens/flyers, were they wearing  smaller equip? too many factors to say it's just pad size.  it's about about whether you're playing to win, or playing not to lose. the pens and flyers went at each other with reckless abandon... forget defense= exciting hockey. the other teams in the playoffs seem to be playing not to lose. hence the less exciting hockey.  to attribute the low scoring in the playoffs to goalies equip is shortsighted. they wore the same equip during the regular season, and nobody complained the about the lack of scoring. the fact remains that scoring has increased since the lockout. so i'm not sure if this is even an issue. many more things have been done to increase scoring (no holding, no hooking, two line passes, trapezoid, sticks)  than decrease it (larger pads). throw the goalies a bone- the league is hell bent on seeing more goals, at the goalies expense. just don't let them get any bigger than they already are.  
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from pauly1. Show pauly1's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    Low goal scoring has been an issue for years, the goalie pad thing is ALWAYS front and center. This debate should have died a long time ago, we all know what the problem is.......over and over and over.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Why Goal Scoring Is Down": That extra is needed, when you go down butterfly style the area just above your knees gets exposed, cant tell you how many times i have gotten hit there directly. The equipment is smaller these days, i have my old glove and my new one which is smaller to comply with new nhl regulations
    Posted by fourrings[/QUOTE]

    Sure, but in each of the photos above, the goalie is deliberately positioning the pad to protect the ice, not the exposed knee.  Miller, holding the post, is driving the side of his pad into the ice in a way that makes his knee vulnerable to a shot, but it protects the five hole, so all good there!

    The deeper argument here is how equipment is evolving to support particular styles of goaltending.  The long pads with the big side flaps suit guys like Rask or Rinne who don't do the splits, they just drop to their knees and turn their pads perpendicular to the ice so that there's an unbroken 11" high wall covering about 5' of ice without a gap.  Miller on the post illustrates this as well - he isn't preparing his body to make a save; he's stacking his equipment like he's playing Tetris.  So my question becomes should a goalie be able to play any style he wants and expect that he can wear whatever equipment makes that style "safe"?  'Cause that sounds to me like a player turning his back so he can't be legally hit - make yourself vulnerable to get a competitive advantage.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    For those with longer memories than I, how have quality scoring chances changed over the years?  Are skaters getting the same looks as in the past, only finding less net to aim at (for the variety of reasons already discussed)?

    While goalie equipment issues should be looked at, I'm not sure it's nearly as important as an increased ability and tendency for skaters to play defense well; and perhaps overall size and skill of players increasing.

    Count me on the "restore the redline" bandwagon.  The idea was that there would be more space to operate in the neutral zone without having to worry about 2-line passes, and that would let teams break out faster; instead teams are having 4 players skate defense while one floats to try to cherry pick.  This forces the other team to be more cautious in its offense, and results it a whole lot of nothing for the most part.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    i find it funny that because the bruins were defeated by a really boring brand of defensive hockey, there's now a problem with the nhl. i realize we all need something to discuss here, but c'mon. scoring has increased league-wide since the lockout. fact. what's the issue? we haven't been sufficiently entertained this playoff? on behalf of the nhl, i apologize. man this is going to be a long off-season. i can only imagine if all these suggestions were taken by the nhl... 10 goals a game! then there's complaining that the game has become pond hockey, and why can't the nhl get quality goalies, their making a mockery of the game! the nhl has many issues it needs to address, lack of goal scoring is not one of them. THE BRUINS, not the league, had trouble scoring . let's place the blame on them, not the league, or goalie pads, or coaches systems, or the rules currently in place. remember last year when the lightning were shutting down everybody with their trap style of play (bringing the game to a standstill vs philly)? the bruins found a way to beat them... so it's a non-issue. the bruins could not find a way to beat the caps, so now there is a problem in the nhl?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    2003-2004:  6318 goals.
    This season: 6545.  That's a 3% increase, and a number that has been going down.  This isn't some new concern just because the Bruins lost, and it isn't just Bruins fans wondering why scoring is going down.

    Interestingly, a big part of this seems to be from the number of power-play goals scored.  Comparing those two seasons, there were 13% more even strength goals now, but 18% fewer PP goals.

    Curious.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

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    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]For those with longer memories than I, how have quality scoring chances changed over the years?  Are skaters getting the same looks as in the past, only finding less net to aim at (for the variety of reasons already discussed)? While goalie equipment issues should be looked at, I'm not sure it's nearly as important as an increased ability and tendency for skaters to play defense well; and perhaps overall size and skill of players increasing. Count me on the "restore the redline" bandwagon.  The idea was that there would be more space to operate in the neutral zone without having to worry about 2-line passes, and that would let teams break out faster; instead teams are having 4 players skate defense while one floats to try to cherry pick.  This forces the other team to be more cautious in its offense, and results it a whole lot of nothing for the most part.
    Posted by DrCC[/QUOTE]

    Bingo. Yes the goalies are bigger and more padded, so are the players, but the quality scoring chances are down as well, and in this playoffs the game is on the fast track back to the late 90's and early 2000's...OT playoff game, with four power play chances and the Capitals had 18 shots on net. 18 shots, with players like Ovechkin,Semin and Green. Do I blame the Rangers style? A little but I look more at how the Caps are playing. Regardless of who is wearing what I really hope the game opens up. Last year we had a coach who had Stamkos, St. Louis and Lecavalier on his roster and what did he do. He had 3 guys sitting back behind the red line, and came 1 goal away from being rewarded for it. What we really need in todays copycat world of sports is someone to figure out how to win with tons of offense. Look at the NFL. It's all about offense now and look how popular it is. I love a great 2-1 game but I want to see some scoring chances and some saves, not players clogging up the middle and blocking shots with no intention of getting the puck and going the other way with it. Put older equipment on the goalies if you like, you'll just have 5 players standing in front of the net now instead of 4. 

    How many 2 on 1's have we seen in these playoffs? 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]2003-2004:  6318 goals. This season: 6545.  That's a 3% increase, and a number that has been going down.  This isn't some new concern just because the Bruins lost, and it isn't just Bruins fans wondering why scoring is going down. Interestingly, a big part of this seems to be from the number of power-play goals scored.  Comparing those two seasons, there were 13% more even strength goals now, but 18% fewer PP goals. Curious.
    Posted by DrCC[/QUOTE]
    if i remember correctly, in the year or two coming out of the lockout, there were an insane amount of penalties called for hooking, holding, and interference- which could skew the total goals scored. when 12 penalties were called a night, there was bound to be some pp goals.  remember the first year after the lockout, EVERYTHING was a hook, hold or interference. i watch a lot of nhl net, and it doesn't seem to be the issue we bruin fans are making it out to be. we're all still just a little bitter to have been outed by a team we all think was not better than the bruins. time will heal the wound.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    The Flyers - Pens series was one of the most exciting I have ever seen, two of the league's most talented teams firing on all cylinders leaving it all on the line. Now we are one game away from both those teams being eliminated, and nothing left but boring, non-attack teams waiting it out to try to win the cup by not having a lucky goal go in on them.

    To say that goalie equipment is not a major factor is to show a lack of understanding of how the collapse defense works. It is the strategy that is making the game boring, but the strategy works because, among other things, the goalie's pads take up a whole bunch of the net. The NHL needs to make the strategy no longer work. Moving the blue line in would help, so would reducing the extra padding that isn't used to protect the goalie. If these don't work they would have to look at an NBA-style 3 minutes in the key type penalty, but I would hate to see that come into the NHL. But this strategy has to be stopped.

    People are complaining, not because the Bruins lost, but because there has been an ongoing trend in reduction of offence, and even moreso a sudden and dramatic shift this post season:

    http://dropyourgloves.com/Stat/LeagueGoals.aspx

    The league is once again approaching the modern-era record lows in offence seen just before the lockout. I found it hard to watch those games, and I'm finding it hard to watch these ones. There is no skill, no creativity.

    Post-lockout we saw reduced goalie pads (by 1") and more strict obstruction calls. The resultant increase of a goal per game was awesome, and more importantly, we saw more comebacks and exciting plays. The league needs to take a similar action again, asap.

    And no one complained during the regular season because the high scoring teams were still playing.  Now all but the Flyers have been eliminated, and they are not likely long for this world.

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]there were 10 goals scored a game between the pens/flyers, were they wearing  smaller equip? too many factors to say it's just pad size.  it's about about whether you're playing to win, or playing not to lose. the pens and flyers went at each other with reckless abandon... forget defense= exciting hockey. the other teams in the playoffs seem to be playing not to lose. hence the less exciting hockey.  to attribute the low scoring in the playoffs to goalies equip is shortsighted. they wore the same equip during the regular season, and nobody complained the about the lack of scoring. the fact remains that scoring has increased since the lockout. so i'm not sure if this is even an issue. many more things have been done to increase scoring (no holding, no hooking, two line passes, trapezoid, sticks)  than decrease it (larger pads). throw the goalies a bone- the league is hell bent on seeing more goals, at the goalies expense. just don't let them get any bigger than they already are.  
    Posted by adkbeesfan[/QUOTE]
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    Some "fun" facts about scoring and why hockey sucks this playoffs (no, it's not because the Bruins are out, thought that doesn't help...):

    The teams that are left, and where they rank in offence this season:

    Phoenix: 18
    Los Angeles:  29
    New York:  11
    Washington:  14
    New Jersey:  15
    Philidelphia:  2

    Assuming the Flyers lose, the 4 teams in the Semi-Final will be 4 of the lowest-scoring teams to make the playoffs.

    Note that last year the final 4 was Van (1), SJ (6), TB (7) and Bos (5). That's a big change from one year to the next, and a big problem when none of the most talented, top-scoring teams can win.

    It's worthy to note that last season's finalists, Bos and Van, were the two best defensive teams in the league. That's great, I love good defence, and defence wins. But they were also top-5 offence teams. They were just good teams, plain and simple. The teams advancing this year have seemingly given up on offence.  They are defence only and it is dreadful to watch. It does call for league action.
     
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