Why Goal Scoring Is Down

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down


    I used to think it was the goalies that were the cry babies.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucdufour. Show lucdufour's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    I'm pretty sure that Marc Andre Fleury's pads are just as big as everyone else that has been mentioned, and he let in a boatload of goals this playoff season.  While I acknowledge that goalie equipment should be smaller, this is less a factor to scoring being down than blocking shots and defensive systems  (such as the 1-4 or 1-3-1 forechecks) employed by these coaches.   
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]It has everything to do with the goalie equipment. The style eliminates chances. The style is used because it works. It works because the shooting area is reduced due to goalie equipment being too large and so it is hard to score. Smaller equipment = easier to slip pucks through = more value in attacking and less success from collapsing = changing style = fun to watch hockey. In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down :
    Posted by OatesCam[/QUOTE]

    Pucks not getting to the net = nothing to do with goalie equipment being bigger.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    Actually Chowda, Oates is just reiterating that teams are collapsing more on the goalie because the space for scoring on net is reduced and it is direectly connected to the goalie equipment.  

    Did any of you completely understand why bringing back the red line would actually improve goal scoring.  I was under the impression the red line was responsible for the old trap.  
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    Maybe there's no direct connection between bigger pads and collapsing, but there's a clear indirect connection.  You only have to shoot through a house of players when you set up in the zone and cycle.  A guy blazing across the blueline and cranking a shot should have a relatively clear shot - but there's not much net to shoot at with the giant pads, so that play is now very low percentage and they look for teh cycle game if they can't actually take the puck hard to the net.

    As for Fleury - if you're out of position, overplaying shots, and kicking things into your own net, it doesn't matter how big your pads are.  We're talking about goalies using technique based big pads, not...whatever it is that Fleury was doing.  But note that Fleury's problem was often moving too much.  You need to move less when you can tetris up your pads to make a wall, but with smaller pads, a goalie has to actually move his body to get to pucks more often.  More saves would be based on athleticism both to make the save and to recover from it.  We keep hearing that the goalies are so much more athletic, but...how would we know? 

    As for the whole "crybaby" thing - whether BadHab's version or adk's - the only connection between this conversation and the Bruins losing is...the Bruins aren't playing, so I have more time for non-Bruin hockey conversations.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

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    Ah, but pucks do get to the net, that's what you're missing. The goal of the collapse is not to prevent shots, but prevent high percentage shots. You take away the kind of shots that would be guaranteed goals, and allow your over-padded goalie to absorb 40+ low-percentage shots. Note that Boston allowed a record number of shots in last year's cup run, and Washington allowed a staggering number of shots in their victory over the Bruins this year. If you trimmed the goalies' equipment then some of those 40 shots would squeak in, no matter how good the goalie was. Trim that foot (literally, one foot - six inch extensions above each knee) of padding that currently blocks 5 holes (as shown above) and a few hard slappers would find their way through. If collapsing and giving up lots of shots now leads to a few goals against, the only solution is to become more aggressive and attack incoming players before they get the shots away. Or better yet, actually try to pressure the opposing goaltender. Teams abandon the collapse defense, the game opens up a little and becomes much more entertaining.

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : Pucks not getting to the net = nothing to do with goalie equipment being bigger.
    Posted by Chowdahkid-[/QUOTE]
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]Ah, but pucks do get to the net, that's what you're missing. The goal of the collapse is not to prevent shots, but prevent high percentage shots. You take away the kind of shots that would be guaranteed goals, and allow your over-padded goalie to absorb 40+ low-percentage shots. Note that Boston allowed a record number of shots in last year's cup run, and Washington allowed a staggering number of shots in their victory over the Bruins this year. If you trimmed the goalies' equipment then some of those 40 shots would squeak in, no matter how good the goalie was. Trim that foot (literally, one foot - six inch extensions above each knee) of padding that currently blocks 5 holes (as shown above) and a few hard slappers would find their way through. If collapsing and giving up lots of shots now leads to a few goals against, the only solution is to become more aggressive and attack incoming players before they get the shots away. Or better yet, actually try to pressure the opposing goaltender. Teams abandon the collapse defense, the game opens up a little and becomes much more entertaining. In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down :
    Posted by OatesCam[/QUOTE]

    I think you're missing my point Oates. I never said that goalie equipment wasn't part of the problem. I said I totally agreed it was a problem. The bigger problem is they all collapse and block shots nowadays.

    This all started when the rule changes prohibited defencemen from clearing out from in front of net.

     Goalie equipment was still huge before this happened. But at least then there were more scoring chances. And no matter what you say the goal of the collapse is, they try and block every shot not just the high quality scoring chances. Pucks don't get through to the goalie like they used to. That's all I'm saying and for me that doesn't have any correlation with bigger equipment.

    It means coaches have come up with a new way ( blocking shots ) of limiting scoring opportunities because of the rule changes.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    The collapse began in earnest when the NHL moved the blue line out in 98', and compounded post-lockout in '05 when the blue line was moved again.. It used to be the job of wings to be an outlet pass along the boards, and to watch the point shot. When the point was moved back several feet, it became impossible for wings to do both effectively. The defensmen were now also 6 feet further from the net, making point shots less threatening anyway. It became the best strategy to just clog up the center and keep the shots from the perimeter.

    Stats don't back up the shots aren't getting through. There is no reduction in shots on goal, and collapse teams allow more shots than others. It's the quality shots that aren't getting through. Where the correlation to padding is, is that the extra padding makes it hard for perimeter shots to pass the goaltender. Someone mentioned Cam Neely ripping hard slappers from the wing and how those don't go in anymore. If the league moved the points (and thus the point shooters) closer to the net again, and opened up more shooting space by reducing pads, more outside shots would score and the collapse strategy would no longer work. It fundamentally depends on goalies being able to block 40+ mostly outside shots a game.

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : I think you're missing my point Oates. I never said that goalie equipment wasn't part of the problem. I said I totally agreed it was a problem. The bigger problem is they all collapse and block shots nowadays. This all started when the rule changes prohibited defencemen from clearing out from in front of net.  Goalie equipment was still huge before this happened. But at least then there were more scoring chances. And no matter what you say the goal of the collapse is, they try and block every shot not just the high quality scoring chances. Pucks don't get through to the goalie like they used to. That's all I'm saying and for me that doesn't have any correlation with bigger equipment. It means coaches have come up with a new way ( blocking shots ) of limiting scoring opportunities because of the rule changes.
    Posted by Chowdahkid-[/QUOTE]
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]The collapse began in earnest when the NHL moved the blue line out in 98', and compounded post-lockout in '05 when the blue line was moved again.. It used to be the job of wings to be an outlet pass along the boards, and to watch the point shot. When the point was moved back several feet, it became impossible for wings to do both effectively. The defensmen were now also 6 feet further from the net, making point shots less threatening anyway. It became the best strategy to just clog up the center and keep the shots from the perimeter. Stats don't back up the shots aren't getting through. There is no reduction in shots on goal, and collapse teams allow more shots than others. It's the quality shots that aren't getting through. Where the correlation to padding is, is that the extra padding makes it hard for perimeter shots to pass the goaltender. Someone mentioned Cam Neely ripping hard slappers from the wing and how those don't go in anymore. If the league moved the points (and thus the point shooters) closer to the net again, and opened up more shooting space by reducing pads, more outside shots would score and the collapse strategy would no longer work. It fundamentally depends on goalies being able to block 40+ mostly outside shots a game. In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down :
    Posted by OatesCam[/QUOTE]

    Two sentences that contradict each other.

    If you really believe that shots are still getting through like they used to then I'll just have to say I totally disagree and leave it at that. No use going further in this discussion if that's what you see. I see forwards and defenseman stopping a ton of shots that used to make their way to the goalie.

    Agree to disagree. I have nothing more to add.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    There is no contradiction, and you can't agree to disagree on this one. Shots on goal are not being reduced. See chart:

    http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_ShotsPerGame.php

    The consistency of shots on goal is amazing over the last 50 years.

    What I said was that through the collapse defence, teams are reducing the quality of the shots, not the quantity. Since goaltenders with extra long and thick pads can save 80% of typical shots without even moving if they are in the butterfly, the strategy works.  The skaters focus on clearing rebounds or cross-ice passes, saves the goalie can't make as easily. If there was an open five hole or more space to shoot at above the flat pads, it would be a poor strategy to allow perimeter shots.

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : Two sentences that contradict each other. If you really believe that shots are still getting through like they used to then I'll just have to say I totally disagree and leave it at that. No use going further in this discussion if that's what you see. I see forwards and defenseman stopping a ton of shots that used to make their way to the goalie. Agree to disagree. I have nothing more to add.
    Posted by Chowdahkid-[/QUOTE]
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    it all just seems a bit self-serving because of the timing i guess. when bruins fans complain that the league needs to change its rules to increase scoring a week after the bruins had trouble scoring, it just seems like whining. i hate whining. i've seen discussions on this site refering to goalies pads, yes. but like i've said, the timing of it all seems like excuse making. the members of this site routinely chastise fans of other teams for doing just this. yet here we are, complaining that the league needs to change because of a month of "boring hockey". there's been great hockey (pitt/phi, nj/fla, nsh/det) and not-so-great hockey (any of the nyr or caps games). we're just focused on the not-so-great hockey, because that's what we watched for 7 games ending the bruins season.  if the bruins were still playing and say the canucks fans were calling for league-wide changes after losing- every poster on this site would be calling them babies.  people here are acting like this "trap style" is unbeatable. the fact remains if TT was better, the pp was better, the forwards were better, the coaches were better(in figuring out how to beat the trap)... this conversation would not be taking place now. i bet 49 north is getting a kick out of this...  
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    Check this out. The photos NaS has posted are not a coincidence. The NHL began its effort to reduce goalie pads several years ago. The previous limit on NHL pad length was 38" for all goaltenders. Goaltending head Kay Whitmore wanted to implement a rule that would limit the pad lengthy based on individual goaltenders' height. The rule that was agreed upon with the PA was 55% of the goaltenders' thigh length. This was put in place in 2011. The new rule was supposed to reduce pad length, but it actually increased it. Using the 55% calculation almost 50% of goalers now have pads exceeding 38"! It is not a coincidence that we are seeing scoring drop again. We have seen the NHL sv% record set two years in a row, in 2011 and 2012 since the pads were expanded. Here's a link, which itself contains another link to Kay Whitmore's letter. Kel and other goalies should note that it's written by a goaltender who feels the expanded pads are reducing the talent required to play, and integriy of, the goaltending position.

    http://nightmareonhelmstreet.com/2010-articles/june/2011-goaltending-equipment-changes.html
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    I don't think the two of you are that far apart.  Key phrase in Chowdah's last post is "shots that used to make their way to the goalie".  In OC's post, he's simply defining those shots as quality shots, and adding that the total number isn't changing because teams are taking a lot of low percentage shots just to get the puck to the goal against a defensive scheme designed to encourage bad shots.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    The conversation started before the Bruins were eliminated, so I suspect it would have continued regardless of the outcome of that series. Are you excited to watch the LA-Phx series? How about a heart-thumping Cap/NY-NJ nail biter? As you can see in my above post the pads were expanded in 2011 and we are seeing the results. To my knowledge this is the first time in NHL history that the final 4 does not feature a top-10 scoring team. This conversation is very timely, and it has nothing to do with the Bruins.

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]it all just seems a bit self-serving because of the timing i guess. when bruins fans complain that the league needs to change its rules to increase scoring a week after the bruins had trouble scoring, it just seems like whining. i hate whining. i've seen discussions on this site refering to goalies pads, yes. but like i've said, the timing of it all seems like excuse making. the members of this site routinely chastise fans of other teams for doing just this. yet here we are, complaining that the league needs to change because of a month of "boring hockey". there's been great hockey (pitt/phi, nj/fla, nsh/det) and not-so-great hockey (any of the nyr or caps games). we're just focused on the not-so-great hockey, because that's what we watched for 7 games ending the bruins season.  if the bruins were still playing and say the canucks fans were calling for league-wide changes after losing- every poster on this site would be calling them babies.  people here are acting like this "trap style" is unbeatable. the fact remains if TT was better, the pp was better, the forwards were better, the coaches were better(in figuring out how to beat the trap)... this conversation would not be taking place now. i bet 49 north is getting a kick out of this...  
    Posted by adkbeesfan[/QUOTE]
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    You're right Book. The reason why I stick to it is because it's the high number of low-percentage shots where the pads come in to the equation. If some of those low-percent shots were slipping in five hole, collapsing wouldn't be so smart. The strategy and the goaltending are related.

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]I don't think the two of you are that far apart.  Key phrase in Chowdah's last post is "shots that used to make their way to the goalie".  In OC's post, he's simply defining those shots as quality shots, and adding that the total number isn't changing because teams are taking a lot of low percentage shots just to get the puck to the goal against a defensive scheme designed to encourage bad shots.
    Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucdufour. Show lucdufour's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    Great discussion above...  What are your thoughts about moving the goal back a little bit to allow for less room behind the net?  The thought here is that the puck will be in the scoring zones more often.  It seemed that in Gretzgy's day, not only the equipment was smaller, but there was less cycling behind the net  (and play behind the goal line in general) where it is impossible to score.   If moving the goal line back were to pass, I would be in favor of the reverse trapezoid, where goalies can go anywhere but in the current trapezoid.  This would make it more of a risk for goalies to come out and play the puck and make it easier to get the puck in the offensive zone without the diaganol dump in. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

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    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]The conversation started before the Bruins were eliminated, so I suspect it would have continued regardless of the outcome of that series. Are you excited to watch the LA-Phx series? How about a heart-thumping Cap/NY-NJ nail biter? As you can see in my above post the pads were expanded in 2011 and we are seeing the results. To my knowledge this is the first time in NHL history that the final 4 does not feature a top-10 scoring team. This conversation is very timely, and it has nothing to do with the Bruins. In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down :
    Posted by OatesCam[/QUOTE]
    which conversation? the size of goalies pads? yes it has been discussed in the past. what part of "it sounds like whining/excuse making after the bruins had trouble scoring" are you not getting? there weren't any threads on this during last years playoffs, because the bruins found ways to win those series, and ultimately a cup. TT was given full credit and a con smythe for his efforts. i don't recall bruins fans complaining about pad size then. nope, just "he's the best goalie on the planet". the discussion that bothers me most is, "the league has to do something to stop this trap-style hockey". i'm sure if the bruins wouldn't have beaten the t-bay trap last year, this conversation would have taken place a year ago. they figured out a way to beat it, no issue made. like i said, it's the timing. it makes these topics seem like excuses for why the bruins couldn't beat the caps. this same topic discussed in august doesn't seem so whiny.  
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucdufour. Show lucdufour's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucdufour. Show lucdufour's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    Nothing to do with Bruins being out of it...I'm over it; it's about improving the overall game.   Can't even see the goalie in the Crosby shot above...  In addition to the big goalie pads, and "collapse style" defense, there is just too much room behind the goal.  It is impossible to score directly from behind the net; reduce the area.  Goalies will also have less time to react from plays from behind the goal line.

    Wish list:
    1) Get rid of the Maxi Pads for all players; this includes oversided goalie pads and blockers and hard cap shoulder pads for all players.
    2) Make less room behind the net
    3) Reverse the trapezoid
    4) Make Charging and Boarding like high sticking, either 2, 4, or 5 and a game at the ref's disgression
    5) Get rid no change players after icing rule; it is not safe.  I'd rather see a penalty assessed to a team after "x" amount of icings
    6) Have 10 min 4-4 OT.  Ban shootout.  Allow ties
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    You are accusing others of being bias because the Bruins lost, but it's you that doesn't seem to be able to see beyond the Bruins. Last season the final 4 featured the $1,5,7 and 8th best offence. This year a team no higher than 11th will be involved. Some previous cup champs and their offensive ranking were Chi (3rd), Pit (6), Det (3) Ana(8) and Car (3). Get your head out of the Boston bag and look at the big picture. This season it is likely that a team that finished in the bottom half of the league in scoring will win the cup, maybe even LA (29!). This is an unprecedented turn of events, and I don't like it. I love hockey, but this sudden change in league wide style is the worst on-ice garbage since '04. If you want to keep bemoaning the Boston loss that's fine, but the rest of us are talking about something that has never happened in the league before. The idea of a league champion lacking in scoring skill relative to its peers is a significant event that deserves discussion.

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : which conversation? the size of goalies pads? yes it has been discussed in the past. what part of "it sounds like whining/excuse making after the bruins had trouble scoring" are you not getting? there weren't any threads on this during last years playoffs, because the bruins found ways to win those series, and ultimately a cup. TT was given full credit and a con smythe for his efforts. i don't recall bruins fans complaining about pad size then. nope, just "he's the best goalie on the planet". the discussion that bothers me most is, "the league has to do something to stop this trap-style hockey". i'm sure if the bruins wouldn't have beaten the t-bay trap last year, this conversation would have taken place a year ago. they figured out a way to beat it, no issue made. like i said, it's the timing. it makes these topics seem like excuses for why the bruins couldn't beat the caps. this same topic discussed in august doesn't seem so whiny.  
    Posted by adkbeesfan[/QUOTE]
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    I agree that the zone behind the net should be smaller. You can't score back there. Also, the cramped space was used by players like Orr and Gretz to avoid opposing players. It's harder to do that now.

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]Great discussion above...  What are your thoughts about moving the goal back a little bit to allow for less room behind the net?  The thought here is that the puck will be in the scoring zones more often.  It seemed that in Gretzgy's day, not only the equipment was smaller, but there was less cycling behind the net  (and play behind the goal line in general) where it is impossible to score.   If moving the goal line back were to pass, I would be in favor of the reverse trapezoid, where goalies can go anywhere but in the current trapezoid.  This would make it more of a risk for goalies to come out and play the puck and make it easier to get the puck in the offensive zone without the diaganol dump in. 
    Posted by lucdufour[/QUOTE]
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    Is he playing left wing or outside linebacker?







    Thats looks like the chest protector I wear.

    This is what they wore when they used to try and score goals.




     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]I agree that the zone behind the net should be smaller. You can't score back there. Also, the cramped space was used by players like Orr and Gretz to avoid opposing players. It's harder to do that now. In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down :
    Posted by OatesCam[/QUOTE]

    PA won't agree to that.  The smaller space behind the goal can be dangerous - think charging for the net and getting tripped, fall over the goalie hit or whatever, miss the net and collidge into the boards.

    There's a rink here in Lowell MA forgot the name of it where the goal line is really close to the boards and you run the risk of killing yourself even on an incidental type of play.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    I think his official position is either concussion-giver or human puck-blocking post.

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]Is he playing left wing or outside linebacker? Thats looks like the chest protector I wear. This is what they wore when they used to try and score goals.
    Posted by kelvana33[/QUOTE]
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    We are not athletic.

















    And finally, yours truly.




    Taken 2 years ago at the ripe age of 34.
     

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