why have a hart?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    why have a hart?

    tradition is tradition i guess. but this award makes no sense at all.  the richard goes to the best offensive player, the norris goes to the best defensive player and the vezina goes to the best goalie. there...done! talk about an argument that has NO answer: are goalies more important than point getters? are defenseman more important than goalies? are point getters more important than defenseman? see the stupidity of it all? there is no need for the award... its already addressed with the three positional awards. it's an endless, useless debate to even consider. but hey...tradition is tradition i guess. 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    sorry i mispoke(typed)- replace "point getter", with "goal scorer"- the point remains the same- unless the hart should go to the guy with the most points that IS NOT the leading goal scorer every year. the assist leader is the automatic hart winner? see how crazy it is
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    adk,

    I think there should be new awards.
    Overall Pts= Gretzky Award
    Top Offensive Dman= Bobby Orr Award
    Best Defensive Dman= ?Award
    Best Overall DMan= Norris(or Orr Award).
    Hart= MVP of the league.

    They have a selke for best defensive fwd but no defensive dman award which is stupid.

    Time to add a few awards and make the MVP mean something. 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from dc-bruins-fan. Show dc-bruins-fan's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    Very few types of players can win the Hart:

    - Offensive forward
    - Offensive defenseman
    - Defensive defenseman
    - Goalie
    - I do not think a defensive forward really stands a chance at the Hart (they have the Selke award)

    I don't think it's a waste of time to try to debate/determine which of those types of players went furthest above and beyond what is expected of that type of player....ie, a forward who puts up 200 points is more impressive than a goalie who put up 12 shutouts and a 2.10 GAA, even if the goalie was in a Price-like situation in Montreal and had no other help whereas a Crosby has Malkin.

    I realize the Hart goes to most valuable to his team, but I don't think that's how the award has been voted on by the press.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    shupe...that's the point, what exactly does the mvp mean? best goalie? best forward? best defenseman? it's an argument that has no answer- former defenseman will tell you its them, former goalies.... you see where i'm going with this. whoever got that individual(richard, norris, vezina) award IS the mvp of their team.  
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    best defensive d-man should be called the big z award!
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    yes and no.  what if TT and Chara win their awards.  Who is the team mvp?   I get what you are saying but they always want who the best player in the league is.  I personally dont think you can say one guy.  In years past it was a slam dunk, especially the gretzky/mario era.  I find the league has no one star like that. 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from bigvig. Show bigvig's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    I think its an interesting debate, but I also think the Hart is kind of stupid.  Its far too subjective really.  And usually, forwards win it because they dont have a "real" award for them.  Youre either the top scorer or not. 

    I think they put too much emphasis on goalies NOT getting the Hart because they have the Vezina which goes to the best overall goalie. 

    Obviously this is because of the argument of Thomas getting the Hart.  I think among people who know hockey and can be subjective (exclude 99% of Montreal fans), Thomas wins the Hart hands down.  I dont think there is any other player in the league who has made such an impact on their team, and thats what the Hart is for.  The Most Valuable Player.  Thomas is that guy.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    big,

    being a bruin fan I am not sure I agree with that.  Where would the Rangers or Habs be w/o their goalies.  Montreal doesnt have Markov/Gorges and have a rookie as their best dman.  he also has had more pressure than any human in hockey this year.  Montreal doesnt have a norris trophy cal dman.  I cant even name all their mix-matches on defense this year.  Combine that with a lot of injuries and scoring issues up front. 
    I am not trying to take anything away from TT.  But Rask had very good numbers last year on this team.  I think any good goalie would excel in this system. 

    I truly believe if its based on most valuable to their team.  I think Price easily wins this award.   Put TT in Montreal and do you think he has that team in the playoffs?  Price has faced the 2nd most shots in the league.  And last week had the most wins.

    TT should and will win the Vezina.  Based and pure numbers.  But I believe the most valuable player to their respective team is Price.  The Sedins will be in there but H. Sedin was fine without D Sedin and Van is gonna be a top team minus one of those guys.  Take Price outta Montreals lineup and they are playing for the 1st overall pick.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    your definitely correct concerning the habs fans- they probably still think price is in the running for the vezina after getting chased from two games in a week. the infamous carey price meltdown- love it!
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmwalters. Show jmwalters's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    Usually the Hart winner is a no-brainer for the most part. Just think Gretzky, Messier, Lemieux, and Hasek. So I am fine with the trophy.

    Usually a superstar wins it unless someone completely overachieves which happens on occasion (Theodore in 2002).
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from huscroft28. Show huscroft28's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    In Response to Re: why have a hart?:
    ?  Price has faced the 2nd most shots in the league.  And last week had the most wins. TT should and will win the Vezina.  Based and pure numbers.  But I believe the most valuable player to their respective team is Price. Take Price outta Montreals lineup and they are playing for the 1st overall pick.
    Posted by shuperman


    I agree with your third sentence and disagree with the rest.  Following your logic, take Thomas outta Bostons lineup and the Bruins are struggling to make the playoffs.  Thomas deserves and should be awarded the Hart which, to revert back to the thread, is still an important trophy.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    MVP can be any impact player. Gretzky, Lemieux were impact players. It's not just a goalie. And yes you can have ok goaltending and still win a Cup, proven when Tom Barrrasso won with the Penguins. Some seasons it's more of a factor than others--goaltending. Cheevers is/was a money goalie, but he was just a cog on the Big Bad Bruins, one part of a giant wheel of talent. It's clear on several of Thomas' shutouts or 1 goal games, he was putting on a clinic out there, taking over games by stunting the opponent barrages. But as I said, you can also see the recent B's games and know that Thomas' influence has not been as needed, that the d-men are clearing out pucks, that the forwards are doing more on both ends, and that the team is playing far better--thus becoming a Cup contender. I like this version of the B's over the first half of the season rely on Timmy B's.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    In Response to Re: why have a hart?:
    In Response to Re: why have a hart? : I agree with your third sentence and disagree with the rest.  Following your logic, take Thomas outta Bostons lineup and the Bruins are struggling to make the playoffs.  Thomas deserves and should be awarded the Hart which, to revert back to the thread, is still an important trophy.
    Posted by huscroft28


    did they struggle last year with Tukka?  No.  Did they have injuries to Chara/Seids and play a rookie 30 minutes a game.  Man I love it when people actually take it personal about the Bruins.  From a standpoint of Price being a rookie who replaced a legend and fan favorite(Halek), to being booed in the 1st ex-game, to standing on his head all year long on a team riddled with injuries to top dmen...how can you not take the Bruins Jersey off, look at it with open eyes and see how important and impressive Price has been.  His stats are disgusting for a rookie goalie in a hockey hotbed.  TT had zero pressure and was essentially the back up coming in, played fantastic, but also played on a top notch team.  So are you saying Chara is not a norris trophy guy and doesnt play 30 minutes a game.  Are you saying CJ doesnt play a trap system and doesnt have every player buying in?  Are you saying Bergie is one of the best two way fwds in the league and are you saying we had McQ as our top dman all year. 

    All I ask is for you to look at the totality of the situation.  You are almost arguing that Boston has a bad team?!?  Boston has an elite team with an elite goalie.  Montreal has a bad team with an elite goalie.  Price had everything going against him.  Would Boston make the playoffs w/o TT?  100% yes.  Why?  B/C they have a top 5 team with Z on it.  Montreal has PK playing the most minutes on their team.  To me Price is more valuable to his team than TT is to his. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from huscroft28. Show huscroft28's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    I do take it "personal", as you say - I'm a fan.  If the Bruins are an elite team, as you say, they haven't played as such until the latter part of the season.  The reason they have as many points as they have is simple - Tim Thomas.  In my opinion, obviously humble when compared to yours, Thomas deserves both the Vezina and the Hart.  If Price doesn't deliver down the stretch when the Habs need him the most, no matter how much you like him, then he deserves neither.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dc-bruins-fan. Show dc-bruins-fan's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    Shupe --

    I think Price is in the Vezina conversation, but only because there are 3 nominees. Otherwise, it's all TT. And it's a no brainer.

    The results on the ice speak for themselves. TT is 1st in GAA and Save % and 2nd in shutouts. TT's performance has been greater than that of past Vezina winners, including his own performance two years ago. TT was flirting with breaking the modern day record for lowest GAA for much of the season. This isn't just a good performance -- it's incredible and very comparable to the crazy pace Crosby was on earlier this season. To give the award to someone else would require a phenomenal reason. No such reason exists in this case.

    Carey Price has done nothing that compares to what TT is accomplishing. Nor is he the first goaltender to keep a sub-par team in the playoff race. Price has been very, very good for Montreal for most of the season, but his numbers just do not compare. There may be a tonne of valid reasons for that, but keep in mind, it's not as if Price's numbers are better than TT's or his team is ahead in the standings. Worse numbers reflecting a worse team. Seems fair. Even if you believe they are the same, there's no sense in giving the award to the loser of the two just because his team sucked, especially when the other guy has done what TT has this year.

    So why Price over TT? Why not throw Pekka Rinne into the mix (another example of why pressure shouldn't matter...this guy has been awesome but plays in Nashville where there is little pressure)? What about Lundqvist...better team (just wait), better numbers, and just as big a member of the team as Price in Montreal? M-A Fleury should have a strong argument too. Fact is, none of these guys has produced close to what TT has this year.

    Finally, the amount of pressure a player is under should have no influence on whether they are considered MVP of the league, and not only because it's impossible to measure and compare(though, admittedly, the pressure on Price was immense). It is entirely irrelevant that Montreal fans were going crazy before the start of the season and Bruins fans were expecting nothing from Thomas.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from huscroft28. Show huscroft28's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    Well put, dc, well put.  Thank you for providing some rationality.

    I was obviously taking it way too personal, but there should be no doubt as to who deserves the Vezina, and the Hart, this year.  Tim Thomas.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from aplymoutht. Show aplymoutht's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    Ya gotta have a hart.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    huscroft,

    I should have worded it differently b/c you are a good regular on here.  So I hope you didnt take offense. 

    Vezina is a no brainer.  TT has played great.  But TT also has the 5th rated offense in hockey and a Norris trophy giant on the back end. 

    Price team has challenged for the divison all year long.  He has started almost all his teams games.  Is 2nd in wins, 2nd in shots, 8 SO(1 behind TT).  Now stats are sometimes misleading b/c TT started on 53 games.  He surely would have more wins, but his other numbers may come up as well. 
    based on pure stats TT will win. 

    Ask me how Price is different from Rinne for example?  Nashville has an allstar roster on defense and plays a tight system.  Price has literally carried his team. He plays on a team that cant score, has lost the majority of its top end dmen.

    Again, I ask you if Chara/Seids were out and Kampfer was playing PK minutes would TT have the same numbers, and on a team that cant score.  Having a solid defense means the puck isnt in your end as much. 
    Boston is top 5 in scoring and has a monster on defense. 

    I am sorry but I disagree completely with TT for the Hart over Price b/c w/o Price that team is in the basement.  W/O TT we still have last yrs starter(who had sick numbers), we still have 6-8 20 goal scorers, we still have Z.  Montreal has nothing but Price. 

    I hate the enemy, but I can admit he is more valuable to his team this year.  And playing in a pressure cooker cant be judged only by the guy in it.  Imagine being booed in an ex-game by the home crowd.  The pressure on him and the way he has performed is pretty darn amazing. The team he plays for stinks and in my eyes is more worthy of the Hart.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from dc-bruins-fan. Show dc-bruins-fan's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    In Response to Re: why have a hart?:
    The pressure on him and the way he has performed is pretty darn amazing. The team he plays for stinks and in my eyes is more worthy of the Hart.
    Posted by shuperman


    So if the Maple Leafs miraculously make the playoffs, does Reimer become the leading candidate for MVP? Under the criterion you've laid out, it seems to be an even better argument than Price! Would be a ridiculous result.

    The Montreal Canadiens are where they are with a goalie who has posted a 2.41 GAA. In other words, the Canadiens are capable of being a playoff team while allowing 2.41 goals/game.

    Are there any other goalies capable of doing this, even in the crappy situation Montreal has going on? Yes. I also think TT is one of them.

    1) TT -- 1.96 GAA
    2) Rinne - 2.11 (notice the gap between TT and 2nd place and between all the others)
    3) Luongo -- 2.16
    4) Quick -- 2.19
    5) Lundqvist  -- 2.22
    11) Price -- 2.41

    All 5 of these players could do what Price is doing in Montreal and all have better numbers. There are also 5 other goaltenders between 5th place and where Price sits. What Price has done is impressive but really not even close to being Hart-worthy.


     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    pretending to know how a team would do "if" a player was not there is silly. tell me anyone would have predicted the pens would still be as good as they w/o crosby and malkin? keep on living in your make believe worlds, i prefer this one. if TT's numbers are that much better(real world) than prices' (real world)- where's the argument? not letting in goals- is not letting in goals. save the what ifs, its unknowable! don't pretend to "know"- instead look at it for what it IS-  how is the 5th or 6th best (being generous) goalie in the league-THE MOST VALUABLE PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE? stupid   
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    Um,
    2 of those goalies play on top 5 teams.  Those are the numbers on those top 5 clubs.  LA has a very talented club on the back end, as does Nashville each having a potential Norris candidate.  Lundqvist has the better argument but still has a pretty solid back end.

    Again, those stats are all on teams with very solid backends.  Put Weber, Drew, Z, Staal in montreal and Price's numbers would come down. 
    The loungo debate is almost laughable since their rookie backup has better numbers than the starter.  Pretty hard to score when the Gazoo twins have the puck the entire game.

    its impossible to put these guys in different situations.  All we have is what in front of us.  TT plays on a very very good team, Lou plays on the depest team in the league, Quick also has a solid roster and Rinne has the best dman in the league and a very good supporting cast. 

    Of all the above mentioned players you could argue that they could be taken outta their lineup and the team would still be successful and actually have been.
    Biron in NY, Rask in Boston, Bernier in LA, Schneieder in Van. 

    In my eyes the MVP to HIS team is Price.  He plays on a terrible team that has had its top 2 dmen gone all year.  Take price outta that lineup and they are a last place team.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from adkbeesfan. Show adkbeesfan's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    bottom line- a puck shot on net does not care how good the team is, it goes in or it doesn't. we're not talking wins here. save% and gaa are the two stats that a goalie is judged.again predicting how the habs would fair w/o price is ludicrous- see the pens
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    In Response to Re: why have a hart?:
    pretending to know how a team would do "if" a player was not there is silly. tell me anyone would have predicted the pens would still be as good as they w/o crosby and malkin? keep on living in your make believe worlds, i prefer this one. if TT's numbers are that much better(real world) than prices' (real world)- where's the argument? not letting in goals- is not letting in goals. save the what ifs, its unknowable! don't pretend to "know"- instead look at it for what it IS-  how is the 5th or 6th best (being generous) goalie in the league-THE MOST VALUABLE PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE? stupid   
    Posted by adkbeesfan


    adk, you beat me to the punch.  its impossible to change names and places.  But how is the 6th best goalie(more like 2nd) be the MVP of his team, b/c of the situation they are in and the place he has taken his team.  Price is second in wins and when it comes down to it W/L is the most important stat isnt it?  I dont care if my goalie has a 3.00 gaa avg as long as he gets wins. 

    Its not stupid when you look at it.  Its most valuable to his team. His team.  Not another team.  If TT is outta this lineup does this team all of a sudden become a bad team?  No, its a good team for starters.  I mean TT wasnt even the starter last year.  did this team have that big of a setback without him? No its didnt and Rask's numbers prove that. 

    If you ask me the one player that can't be replaced in this lineup its Chara. 
    If you ask me one player in montreal that cant be lost and its Price.
    If you asked me one player in NYR and its HL.

    TT has played 53 games on one of the top rated teams all year.  A trapping system with one of the best Dmen in the league. 

    Price has played a lions share of minutes and games and had his team contending for the divison within the last 2 weeks of the season.

    Again, how is this logic stupid.  TT can be replaced and actually was last year.


     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: why have a hart?

    In Response to Re: why have a hart?:
    bottom line- a puck shot on net does not care how good the team is, it goes in or it doesn't. we're not talking wins here. save% and gaa are the two stats that a goalie is judged.again predicting how the habs would fair w/o price is ludicrous- see the pens
    Posted by adkbeesfan


    so does gaa/save% mean that player is more valuable to his team?  or does that mean he plays in a great system with a star dman and very responsible healthy team?

    See Pens, lord I will add that to my debate b/c I have already mentioned Fleury before. 

    My point again, take TT outta Boston(like last year) and you still have a good team.  Take Price outta Montreal and what do you have.  A bad team. 

    And maybe this feeds perfectly into your Hart question.  How is either Sedin the MVP of the league? Last year I can see Henrick winning sans Daniel.  But pt is he is on an extremely good team and they would win games without him. 

    My thought on the Hart is if you take that person outta the lineup they wouldnt be the same team.

    Boston is on top of defensive stats every single year.  And I think that plays more into the team play than any one individual. 
     
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