Would Caps trade Ovie?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Olsonic. Show Olsonic's posts

    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    If 38 goals and 65 pts means hes cooked give me 6 of them.  Money aside hes a pure superstar.  



    This is what corsi helps you protect against. It shows you that the problem is deeper than just points.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    Corsi can kiss my b ut.  I can see with my own eyes.  Is he the stick of tnt he was yrs back?   No. Hes also had more coaching systems trust upon him then anyone with his playing sevice.  They went from wide open out score the other guys, to more def responsible to full ot trap.  Now they are switching his position and playing him with ahl players.  Does corsi cover that?   

     
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    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    I watched a bit of the Caps game last night and Ovie was skating mainly with Robeiro and Chimera.  He also led all forwards in TOI and scored a goal.  Maybe he's adjusting to Oates and vice versa, may just take some time and he'll ramp up his game when the games really matter down the stretch. We'll see as McPhee has stated he's not looking to "blow it up." 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    In response to hangnail's comment:

    I watched a bit of the Caps game last night and Ovie was skating mainly with Robeiro and Chimera.  He also led all forwards in TOI and scored a goal.  Maybe he's adjusting to Oates and vice versa, may just take some time and he'll ramp up his game when the games really matter down the stretch. We'll see as McPhee has stated he's not looking to "blow it up." 



    Yeah hes been with them for about a week now.  Hes also getting chanes.   Hes getting chances.  He will ave a 3 goal game and his pts.  The league figured him out some.  he has said he has to get better.  Hes too skilled to be washed up.  38 goals isnt washed up.  

     
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    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    Corsi can kiss my b ut.  I can see with my own eyes.  Is he the stick of tnt he was yrs back?   No. Hes also had more coaching systems trust upon him then anyone with his playing sevice.  They went from wide open out score the other guys, to more def responsible to full ot trap.  Now they are switching his position and playing him with ahl players.  Does corsi cover that?   



    No. it's still a statistic, it doesn't tell the whole story. Agreed that the systems in Washington are not helping Ovechkin be the player he once was. If Corsi shows you anything, it's that Ovie didn't just regress to a version of Scott Hartnell (who put up a comparable 37 goals and 30 asst last season), he was significantly worse than Scott Hartnell. he didn't make his teammates better, he wasn't a threatening force when he was on the ice making his opponents put out their best defensive players out on the ice to stop him. For the most part, when Ovechkin was on the ice his team was getting shelled.

    The thing that's even worse is, his team is basically the same as it has always been. It isn't like they lost some key players. It's practically a science experiment when the variables for teammate are controlled.

     
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    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    Olsonic,

    green and backstrom missed big chunks of time the last few yrs.  they dont have a 2 headed monster at center.  Teams learned if they shut ovi down they likely beat them.  

    again, ovi has had more coaching changes as well as systems changes then anyone player i can think of recently.  theyve tried to make him a checker last year and it has taken the spark from him.  

    Ovi is far from done.  I dont think hes in the top 2 anymore.  But i would take him anyday if money wasnt an issue. 

     
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    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

    Olsonic,

    green and backstrom missed big chunks of time the last few yrs.  they dont have a 2 headed monster at center.  Teams learned if they shut ovi down they likely beat them.  

    again, ovi has had more coaching changes as well as systems changes then anyone player i can think of recently.  theyve tried to make him a checker last year and it has taken the spark from him.  

    Ovi is far from done.  I dont think hes in the top 2 anymore.  But i would take him anyday if money wasnt an issue. 

     




    I agree with you on all of your points, I really do. The fact remains, however, that Ovie is not an effective player for the Capitals any more regardless of his innate ability. Adding green and backstrom back to the lineup hasn't helped. Malkin was able to rise up when Crosby, Staal, and Letang were injured (if my memory serves me correctly), and while that may attest to just how deep the Penguins are compared to the caps, i think the more important point is just how broken the caps are. It's beyond repair in my opinion, they need to completely reconstruct their team, and it may help to take a page outta the blue-jackets playbook whent hey dished their albatross contract in Rick Nash and started fresh.

    That's where the Bruins come in :)

    Can someone please clarify what the CBA says about teams eating a % of a players contract? Couldn't the Caps eat like 2 million per year to make moving Ovechkin a bit easier
    ?

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    In response to Olsonic's comment:

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

    Olsonic,

    green and backstrom missed big chunks of time the last few yrs.  they dont have a 2 headed monster at center.  Teams learned if they shut ovi down they likely beat them.  

    again, ovi has had more coaching changes as well as systems changes then anyone player i can think of recently.  theyve tried to make him a checker last year and it has taken the spark from him.  

    Ovi is far from done.  I dont think hes in the top 2 anymore.  But i would take him anyday if money wasnt an issue. 

     




    I agree with you on all of your points, I really do. The fact remains, however, that Ovie is not an effective player for the Capitals any more regardless of his innate ability. Adding green and backstrom back to the lineup hasn't helped. Malkin was able to rise up when Crosby, Staal, and Letang were injured (if my memory serves me correctly), and while that may attest to just how deep the Penguins are compared to the caps, i think it points directly to how broken the caps. It's beyond repair in my opinion, they need to completely reconstruct their team the way the Blue Jackets traded off Rick Nash.

     



    I had a chat under most boring teams to watch.  i said the capitals.  I watch most of their games bc i really like ovie laich chimera and some others like alzner.   The caps wont win with what they have.  I agree.  I think hes a better player then nash however.  Nash cant sell the game the way ovi does.  The caps are stacked with high end prospects.  I wouldnt deal ovi.  Id build around him. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Olsonic. Show Olsonic's posts

    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    The caps are stacked with high end prospects.  I wouldnt deal ovi.  Id build around him. 

     




    They are?

     
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    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    In response to Olsonic's comment:

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

    The caps are stacked with high end prospects.  I wouldnt deal ovi.  Id build around him. 

     

     




     

    They are?



    Yes. Wilson forsberg orlov russian in the khl.  This combined with green ovi backstrom alzner carlson brouwer johannson, perrault laich and two young goalies.  Plus they have about 20 million in cap space.  No reason to blow up.  Just need to add the right pieces.  This isnt an old team.  Its young with lots of potential.  I cant think of the russian but hes dominated every league and is likely one of the top rated players not in the league.  

     
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    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    Kuznetsov

     
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    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    No offense, but I think you are just naming their younger players. It's a trap I think a lot of people walk into when thinking about prospects. People assume every 1st round pick (or 55th overall pick) whose shown some flash outside the NHL is gonna come in and be an all-star. In my opinion, none of these guys are gonna be the kind of impact players that can turn a franchise around. Johannson hasn't provided the kind of secondary scoring they are looking for (1 goal,  0 assists, -7 this season), Forsberg was a reach, Orlov is a reach. I dunno who Wilson is. from what I read Kuznetsov could be the only impact player in the bunch, and he's still a year away from being a rookie.


    Ovheckin is in his prime right now (you would hope he's still there) I just don't think you can sit and cross your fingers that some guys are gonna come to the rescue from the minor leagues. They need established NHL players imo

     
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    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    In response to Olsonic's comment:

    It's no surprise that corsi falling off dramatically mirrors what chowdah claims you might think from watching him play.. THATS THE POINT. That's why it's a valuable statistic. And because shots happen more often than points, you can make a more accurate prediction about future behavior. Thats why I'm saying Ovechkin is truly cooked in Washington. It isn't that he's snake bitten or is missing the net, the guys is simply not effective at all any more.



    Okay, so it's valuable because it tells me what I see?  I don't need corsi's help with using shots as a barometer.  I can use...shots.

    And if he's "simply not effective at all anymore", how did he end up 5th in the league in goals last year?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    In response to Olsonic's comment:

    No offense, but I think you are just naming their younger players. It's a trap I think a lot of people walk into when thinking about prospects. People assume every 1st round pick (or 55th overall pick) whose shown some flash outside the NHL is gonna come in and be an all-star. In my opinion, none of these guys are gonna be the kind of impact players that can turn a franchise around. Johannson hasn't provided the kind of secondary scoring they are looking for (1 goal,  0 assists, -7 this season), Forsberg was a reach, Orlov is a reach. I dunno who Wilson is. from what I read Kuznetsov could be the only impact player in the bunch, and he's still a year away from being a rookie.


    Ovheckin is in his prime right now (you would hope he's still there) I just don't think you can sit and cross your fingers that some guys are gonna come to the rescue from the minor leagues. They need established NHL players imo



    Kuznetsov has been compared to kovalchuk.  Hes dominated world junior And everywhere hes played to date.  They say hes a cant miss prospect.  Top line fwd.  he is a franchise player. If they can get him to come over.  

    Forsberg again is what they call cant miss.  He dropped in the draft but hes nhl talent for sure.  Hes a big body with great hands.  Top 6 fwd

    orlov is a fine young dman.  Can skate and move the puck.  Projected top 4.  

    Wilson. 1st round pick that teams were hoping to land.  3rd line winger who could slide up like Lucic.  Hes tough as nails and can score.  Something they need.  He almost made the team outta junior this year.  He was drafted in the first round last year.  

    Johannson doesnt have the scoring touch but has world class speed.  If he can develop his game hes an ideal 3rd line center. 

    Ovi is not old.  Being in your prime doesnt mean its one year.  Iggy has been ticking for yrs.  

    G holtby/neuverth.  Both have the ability to be a number 1.  Im betting its holtby who reminds me of cam ward.  

    D.  Alzner/green/carlson/orlov.  Thats a pretty solid top 4.  Very young as well.  

    F.  ovi/backstrom/forsberg.  Kuznetsov/laich/brouwer. Johannson/wilson/ward

    teams win by building from within.  Recent history shows that teams with home grown talent win. Sure picks may not pan out.  So far the capitals youngsters have done very well.  Mix youth which will be coming in the next couple yrs with whats already there.  As i mentioned they have 20 million in cap space.  Getz or perry would be fantastic pickups.  But the Capital young prospects.  Especially forsberg and kuz are pretty much cant miss. 

    Time will tell. I wouldnt blow it up.  I would deal all expiring comtracts.  Ribero being one.  

     

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Olsonic. Show Olsonic's posts

    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to Olsonic's comment:

    I don't need corsi's help with using shots as a barometer.  I can use...shots.

     

    And if he's "simply not effective at all anymore", how did he end up 5th in the league in goals last year?



    go ahead, use shots, that would be a better indicator of what is likely to happen when Ovechkin gets on the ice than just looking at points. You'd also be getting pretty close to what Jim Corsi had in mind when he starting using corsi numbers--he just took it a step further to include blocked shots and shots that miss the net. And if you just looked @ shot differential for Ovechkin, I think you would notice the same decline (although, by definition, the sample size would be smaller, so it might be more erratic)

    Ovie is 5th in the league because the guy is a good goal scorer, but when he's on the ice his team isn't necessarily doing better than the other team. Corsi helps shows you just how much of a liability he is when he's on the ice. It's the same concept as Plus/Minus, except--again, shots happen more than points, so it's a better indicator. thats really all it comes down to. shots, missed shots, and blocked shots are events that happen every shift--points dont.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    In response to Olsonic's comment:

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

     

    In response to Olsonic's comment:

    I don't need corsi's help with using shots as a barometer.  I can use...shots.

     

    And if he's "simply not effective at all anymore", how did he end up 5th in the league in goals last year?

     



    go ahead, use shots, that would be a better indicator of what is likely to happen when Ovechkin gets on the ice than just looking at points. You'd also be getting pretty close to what Jim Corsi had in mind when he starting using corsi numbers--he just took it a step further to include blocked shots and shots that miss the net. And if you just looked @ shot differential for Ovechkin, I think you would notice the same decline (although, by definition, the sample size would be smaller, so it might be more erratic)

    Ovie is 5th in the league because the guy is a good goal scorer, but when he's on the ice his team isn't necessarily doing better than the other team. Corsi helps shows you just how much of a liability he is when he's on the ice. It's the same concept as Plus/Minus, except--again, shots happen more than points, so it's a better indicator. thats really all it comes down to. shots, missed shots, and blocked shots are events that happen every shift--points dont.

     



    +/- stat is A garbage stat.  

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    Ovi isnt the same 100 pt 50 goal guy.  But hes still a premier player in the league.  His contract is brutal.  But he still can score.  A big chunk of that 9 million is to put the puck in the net and put people in the stands.  Washington has a 3 year sellout streak.   Im pretty sure hes the main reason.   

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Olsonic. Show Olsonic's posts

    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

    Kuznetsov has been compared to kovalchuk.  Hes dominated world junior And everywhere hes played to date.  They say hes a cant miss prospect.  Top line fwd.  he is a franchise player. If they can get him to come over.  

     

    Forsberg again is what they call cant miss.  He dropped in the draft but hes nhl talent for sure.  Hes a big body with great hands.  Top 6 fwd

    orlov is a fine young dman.  Can skate and move the puck.  Projected top 4.  

    Wilson. 1st round pick that teams were hoping to land.  3rd line winger who could slide up like Lucic.  Hes tough as nails and can score.  Something they need.  He almost made the team outta junior this year.  He was drafted in the first round last year.  

    Johannson doesnt have the scoring touch but has world class speed.  If he can develop his game hes an ideal 3rd line center. 

    Ovi is not old.  Being in your prime doesnt mean its one year.  Iggy has been ticking for yrs.  

    G holtby/neuverth.  Both have the ability to be a number 1.  Im betting its holtby who reminds me of cam ward.  

    D.  Alzner/green/carlson/orlov.  Thats a pretty solid top 4.  Very young as well.  

    F.  ovi/backstrom/forsberg.  Kuznetsov/laich/brouwer. Johannson/wilson/ward

    teams win by building from within.  Recent history shows that teams with home grown talent win. Sure picks may not pan out.  So far the capitals youngsters have done very well.  Mix youth which will be coming in the next couple yrs with whats already there.  As i mentioned they have 20 million in cap space.  Getz or perry would be fantastic pickups.  But the Capital young prospects.  Especially forsberg and kuz are pretty much cant miss. 

    Time will tell. I wouldnt blow it up.  I would deal all expiring comtracts.  Ribero being one.  

     

     




     

    I think you are seriously over-valuing these prospects. Holtby and Neuverith have save % around .850 this season. They are getting absolutely shelled. Johansson, no amount of speed will make you a 3rd line center when you have 1 point, -7, and have managed just 4 shots while averaging 11 minutes of ice-time in 9 games. 

    as far as forsberg and Orlov, I have no idea, but those guys have floors and ceilings, and I think you are making your projections on the best-case scenario ceiling-hitting for every single prospect--that stuff just doesn't happen.


    I dunno. they just let Semin walk and didn't replace him with anyone. they were thin @ scoring when Semin was in the line-up. IMO they are several players away from making this work, and that may be difficult when you're paying one player so much money.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    In response to Olsonic's comment:

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

     

    Kuznetsov has been compared to kovalchuk.  Hes dominated world junior And everywhere hes played to date.  They say hes a cant miss prospect.  Top line fwd.  he is a franchise player. If they can get him to come over.  

     

    Forsberg again is what they call cant miss.  He dropped in the draft but hes nhl talent for sure.  Hes a big body with great hands.  Top 6 fwd

    orlov is a fine young dman.  Can skate and move the puck.  Projected top 4.  

    Wilson. 1st round pick that teams were hoping to land.  3rd line winger who could slide up like Lucic.  Hes tough as nails and can score.  Something they need.  He almost made the team outta junior this year.  He was drafted in the first round last year.  

    Johannson doesnt have the scoring touch but has world class speed.  If he can develop his game hes an ideal 3rd line center. 

    Ovi is not old.  Being in your prime doesnt mean its one year.  Iggy has been ticking for yrs.  

    G holtby/neuverth.  Both have the ability to be a number 1.  Im betting its holtby who reminds me of cam ward.  

    D.  Alzner/green/carlson/orlov.  Thats a pretty solid top 4.  Very young as well.  

    F.  ovi/backstrom/forsberg.  Kuznetsov/laich/brouwer. Johannson/wilson/ward

    teams win by building from within.  Recent history shows that teams with home grown talent win. Sure picks may not pan out.  So far the capitals youngsters have done very well.  Mix youth which will be coming in the next couple yrs with whats already there.  As i mentioned they have 20 million in cap space.  Getz or perry would be fantastic pickups.  But the Capital young prospects.  Especially forsberg and kuz are pretty much cant miss. 

    Time will tell. I wouldnt blow it up.  I would deal all expiring comtracts.  Ribero being one.  

     

     

     




     

     

    I think you are seriously over-valuing these prospects. Holtby and Neuverith have save % around .850 this season. They are getting absolutely shelled. Johansson, no amount of speed will make you a 3rd line center when you have 1 point, -7, and have managed just 4 shots while averaging 11 minutes of ice-time in 9 games. 

    as far as forsberg and Orlov, I have no idea, but those guys have floors and ceilings, and I think you are making your projections on the best-case scenario ceiling-hitting for every single prospect--that stuff just doesn't happen.


    I dunno. they just let Semin walk and didn't replace him with anyone. they were thin @ scoring when Semin was in the line-up. IMO they are several players away from making this work, and that may be difficult when you're paying one player so much money.



    Holtby won a 7 game series as a rookie against the cup champs.  neuv. was the starting goalie when they won in hershey.  Both young.  i think holtby will eventually take over.  Holtby with shutout last night.  We only have sample size but holtby played great in the playoffs and has a confidence about him you need as a goalie.  

    Read anything on forsberg or his current yrs stats.  Hes gonna likely be on their top line next year.  Kuz many argue is the best player in the world outside the nhl.  Orlov projected top 4 dman.  

    Theyve only been hard up on scoring bc of the 20th system change.  Before that they were tearing the league up. 

    Johannson hasnt done much but wasnt nearly as hyped as forsberg or kuz.   Wilson is a raw talent who will be in the starting lineup next year.  

    I dont think they win in the next year.  But if these guys enter and add to what they already have which is one of the best records in hockey over the past 4-5 yrs.  like you said.  They still have the same guys.   Adding a star 2nd line center like getz would be huge.  

     
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    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    Sorry NAS.  I didnt delete.  

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Olsonic. Show Olsonic's posts

    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    In response to shuperman's comment:

    Getz or perry would be fantastic pickups.  




    Agreed, Those are the kinds of players they need to be adding to their roster IMO, established NHL talent. If the other kids pan out, then great, I'm personally skeptical of it all working out. 

    Another thing to consider, is it's possible they'll get the #1 overall pick this year. They are that bad.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Would Caps trade Ovie?

    In response to Olsonic's comment:

    In response to shuperman's comment:

     

    Getz or perry would be fantastic pickups.  

     




     

    Agreed, Those are the kinds of players they need to be adding to their roster IMO, established NHL talent. If the other kids pan out, then great, I'm personally skeptical of it all working out. 

    Another thing to consider, is it's possible they'll get the #1 overall pick this year. They are that bad.



    Very possible.  And the reason they should be dealing guys like ribero.  Its a very good draft.  I see Drouin and mckinnon a lot.  Amazing young players.  Seth Jones if they want a dman. 

    I agree the current group isnt working.  Its like they are looking for their identity.  They need some strong leadership in there

     
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