2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

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    2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

    Posts: 1209
    First: 6/22/2006
    Last: 8/22/2012
    In Response to Re: Upgrade:
    It's going to be very hard to get deep into the playoffs without one 20 point per game scorer or one 10 rebound per game player. I can't think of a team that has won the championship without a 20 or a 10 guy.
    Posted by TommyRules


    My first guess was the 04 pistons and I was almost right. They didnt have a 20 pt scorer, (rip hamilton was leading scorer at 17.6ppg). But they did have a 10 reb guy in ben wallace who avg 12.4 rpg.

    U bring up a good point tho. I also believe that to win a championship, u need a top 10 player and a couple top 20-35 players. This is a stars league. Stars win. MJ,magic,bird, kobe,russell,shaq,duncan,hakeen,lebron,wade  etc. Without one or two of those type of guys on your team its near impossible to win. The year the cs won kg was still a top 10 overall player. ( he was 3rd in mvp voting and def player of the year in 2008). Right now we have a bunch of very good players  top 20-40 types (rondo,kg,pp) guys who would still be the top players on certain  teams but secondary players on the elite teams. 

    The only exception  is that pistons team. Very unique team. They are really the only team to win a championship with out a top 10 player. The good thing for the celtics is that they are very similiar to that pistons team. Both teams were great defensively, pistons were #1 in point allowed per game the celtics last year were 3rd (led by  former def playes of the year's in ben wallace and kg respectively) and both had several double digit scorers. Detroit that year had 4 double digit scorers , and 3 other who avgd over 9ppg. So 7 players who avgd 9 or more ppg.  Lets look at the celtics:

    rondo 
    pp     
    kg      
    bbass  
    terry   
    lee      
    bradley 
    jgreen  

    I think we can match that or even do better. Thats 8 players who could realistically avg over 9 ppg and 4 or 5 in double digits.  

    So we have the pistons formula, a top ranked defense and several double digit scorers. The only other thing detroit did was they were an above avg rebounding team ranked 11th that year. We were 30th. We have to get our rpg to a good level like top 12-15 if we can do that we may be able to duplicate what the pistons did that year.
    Posts: 1209
    First: 6/22/2006
    Last: 8/22/2012
    In Response to Re: Upgrade:
    It's going to be very hard to get deep into the playoffs without one 20 point per game scorer or one 10 rebound per game player. I can't think of a team that has won the championship without a 20 or a 10 guy.
    Posted by TommyRules


    My first guess was the 04 pistons and I was almost right. They didnt have a 20 pt scorer, (rip hamilton was leading scorer at 17.6ppg). But they did have a 10 reb guy in ben wallace who avg 12.4 rpg.

    U bring up a good point tho. I also believe that to win a championship, u need a top 10 player and a couple top 20-35 players. This is a stars league. Stars win. MJ,magic,bird, kobe,russell,shaq,duncan,hakeen,lebron,wade  etc. Without one or two of those type of guys on your team its near impossible to win. The year the cs won kg was still a top 10 overall player. ( he was 3rd in mvp voting and def player of the year in 2008). Right now we have a bunch of very good players  top 20-40 types (rondo,kg,pp) guys who would still be the top players on certain  teams but secondary players on the elite teams. 

    The only exception  is that pistons team. Very unique team. They are really the only team to win a championship with out a top 10 player. The good thing for the celtics is that they are very similiar to that pistons team. Both teams were great defensively, pistons were #1 in point allowed per game the celtics last year were 3rd (led by  former def playes of the year's in ben wallace and kg respectively) and both had several double digit scorers. Detroit that year had 4 double digit scorers , and 3 other who avgd over 9ppg. So 7 players who avgd 9 or more ppg.  Lets look at the celtics:

    rondo 
    pp     
    kg      
    bbass  
    terry   
    lee      
    bradley 
    jgreen  

    I think we can match that or even do better. Thats 8 players who could realistically avg over 9 ppg and 4 or 5 in double digits.  

    So we have the pistons formula, a top ranked defense and several double digit scorers. The only other thing detroit did was they were an above avg rebounding team ranked 11th that year. We were 30th. We have to get our rpg to a good level like top 12-15 if we can do that we may be able to duplicate what the pistons did that year.

     I  believe that to win a championship, u need a top 10 player and a couple top 20-35 players. This is a stars league. Stars win. MJ,magic,bird, kobe,russell,shaq,duncan,hakeen,lebron,wade  etc. Without one or two of those type of guys on your team its near impossible to win. The year the cs won kg was still a top 10 overall player. ( he was 3rd in mvp voting and def player of the year in 2008). Right now we have a bunch of very good players  top 20-40 types (rondo,kg,pp) guys who would still be the top players on certain  teams but secondary players on the elite teams. 

    The only exception  is that pistons team. Very unique team. They are really the only team to win a championship with out a top 10 player. The good thing for the celtics is that they are very similiar to that pistons team. Both teams were great defensively, pistons were #1 in point allowed per game the celtics last year were 3rd (led by  former def playes of the year's in ben wallace and kg respectively) and both had several double digit scorers. Detroit that year had 4 double digit scorers , and 3 other who avgd over 9ppg. So 7 players who avgd 9 or more ppg.  Lets look at the celtics:

    rondo 
    pp     
    kg      
    bbass  
    terry   
    lee      
    bradley 
    jgreen  

    I think we can match that or even do better. Thats 8 players who could realistically avg over 9 ppg and 4 or 5 in double digits.  

    So we have the pistons formula, a top ranked defense and several double digit scorers. The only other thing detroit did was they were an above avg rebounding team ranked 11th that year. We were 30th. We have to get our rpg to a good level like top 12-15 if we can do that we may be able to duplicate what the pistons did that year.
     
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    Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

    In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.:
    [QUOTE]Why u guys keep eyeing on Varejao who is 30 years old?? He is more like a role player not a legit starter, just like mark madsen, brian cardinal, eduardo najera type of players What we now is great investment not for short term. we'll get burden having Varejao's contract(3 years with 9m/year) and he cannot run the floor with rondo cmon guys think what could help the C's through this season and years beyond!
    Posted by The BIG TICKET[/QUOTE]

    100% false analysis of his style of play and talent. not a thing is correct there about Varejao ticket except that he is 30, 1 year younger than KG when DA traded for him in '07.
     
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    Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

    Varajeo is a pipe dream only if we have information that the trade is not possible.

    To compare Varajeo to Mark Madsen or Brian Cardinal shows literally no understanding of NBA players and their value. Varajeo had twenty points and twenty rebounds against the Celtics just this season.  He has always been a top player as his salary attests to.
     
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    Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

    In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons. : are u serious tommy??! what makes u think its the same??! stupidity of u comes out! Sullinger could be better than varejao because he was a scorer, rebounder!! Sullinger proves that thru college basketball 17ppg 9rpg, did u see what he does during the summer league??! Melo is "RAW", he doesnt average above 5 ppg, and no rebounds,  McGee could learn faster than Melo!
    Posted by The BIG TICKET[/QUOTE

    Wait, "McGee could learn faster than Melo".  Is Melo brain-defective (no)?  The kid has learned English faster than most native-born citizens while McGee is one of the dumbest players ever to make an NBA roster.  Just picture the end of a close game and McGee gets his hands on the ball (yikes) - instantly the other team has the advantage because he'll do something completely brainless.  He is a sad case, and I feel sorry for him because if he weren't 7' tall, he'd be hard-pressed to make any sort of living.  Do a little research before making assumptions about speed of learning.  Melo would lap McGee in a one-lap intelligence race.
     
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    Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

    Fierscest,
    Agree with you about current state of the team and possible trades for AV, McGee or whomever.

    If we talk purely hypothetical, sure, Bass for AV is a good trade. But their salaries are too far apart so, there's need for the 3rd player. I wouldn't add CL and definetely not AB. As for draft picks, I don't think DA would go for that: the team is still in a rebuilding mode.

    AK
     
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    Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

    In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.:
    [QUOTE]rame As for Fierce, he is of course a huge fan and knows the game, but he is also the master of sinking to the level of others and going too far when it comes to pettiness and being immature.  I would suspect the reason he is not 'all over' such a trade idea is his simple desire to play devil's advocate and in some way rain on the parade of the idea's others have that are not his own. Even if he has no evidence or point, as is often the case when he attempts to go after me, he will beat a dead horse when we are essentially in agreement (He admits Varejao would be a big upgrade to the club). It is a classic symptom displayed by people who 'think' they are the smartest person in the room at all times I'm not trying to be the smartest person here. It's only practical that you see how the team plays first before talking about trades. I mean Ainge just finished completing the roster with Jeff Green's signing and we're already talking about trades that would break the team apart. This is just like your assumption that Moultrie would become a PF/C in the NBA even if he hasn't played a single NBA game yet. Now that the Sixers have Bynum, Hawes, and Kwame, it's almost impossible that Doug Collins would even think about using Moultrie as a C. And yes, Varejao will be an upgrade over Bass, but it's also a pipe dream at this point in time.
    Posted by Fiercest34[/QUOTE]

    With the moves that the Sixers made, adding two players since our previous discussion, it is very unlikely that they use Moultrie at C. Yet when you compared Moultrie to the shorter weak rebounding better shooting Jeff Green as a player he'd be 'redudant with' on the C's, you were wrong. He is a 6'11" active player on the boards with a raw and still developing outside game. He compares to guys at his age like Ibaka and Bosh. Who both played C in the NBA finals. So it only makes sense to think his future would be more as the very popular 'stretch 5' in the athletic uptempo games we see these days instead of trying to force him to become a combo-forward in the way we saw Jujuan Johnson, another player he was more redundant with than Green, fail at last season.



     
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    Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

    In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.:
    [QUOTE]rame As for Fierce, he is of course a huge fan and knows the game, but he is also the master of sinking to the level of others and going too far when it comes to pettiness and being immature.  I would suspect the reason he is not 'all over' such a trade idea is his simple desire to play devil's advocate and in some way rain on the parade of the idea's others have that are not his own. Even if he has no evidence or point, as is often the case when he attempts to go after me, he will beat a dead horse when we are essentially in agreement (He admits Varejao would be a big upgrade to the club). It is a classic symptom displayed by people who 'think' they are the smartest person in the room at all times I'm not trying to be the smartest person here. It's only practical that you see how the team plays first before talking about trades. I mean Ainge just finished completing the roster with Jeff Green's signing and we're already talking about trades that would break the team apart. This is just like your assumption that Moultrie would become a PF/C in the NBA even if he hasn't played a single NBA game yet. Now that the Sixers have Bynum, Hawes, and Kwame, it's almost impossible that Doug Collins would even think about using Moultrie as a C. And yes, Varejao will be an upgrade over Bass, but it's also a pipe dream at this point in time.
    Posted by Fiercest34[/QUOTE]

    Concord is right... 'pipe dream'? 

    We're talking a young rebuilding team would trade its oldest player with a like 17 mil in $ owed for a rookie #21 or 22 pick, future pick and younger NBA veteran who has value both on the club if they want to make the '14 or '15 playoffs, or as a future trade asset...

    That is just a foolish comment Fierce, the idea that Boston would be in on such a player at the deadline is not a 'pipe dream' AT ALL. He makes 8.4 million. We could get him for Bass alone who makes 6.2 (of course Melo would be thrown in) Or Lee and Sully who would combine for like 6.5.

    There is ZERO need to 'wait until the season starts' to begin the fun process of proposing trades. This is a DISCUSSION FORUM. As I already told you... if you prefer to spend your summers slinging mud at teenage Laker fans then continue to do so. I enjoy discussions like this one. 



     
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    Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

    In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons. : The Celtics can NOT trade for Varejao right now because Andy's salary is 8.4m this season. Where will the Celts get 8.4m in cap space? I don't disagree that trading for Varejao would be an upgrade. But we should see the Celts play first before talking about trades. It's only practical that we give the players at least until December to show us what they can do. It was only yesterday that the Celts' roster was completed and the next thing to do is break the team apart even if they haven't played a single game together? Lee, Sully, and Melo have not played a single regular season game for the Celts and we're already talking about trading them?
    Posted by Fiercest34[/QUOTE]

    Brandon Bass is 27-28 years old, we are not talking AB here, and even if he improves slightly he is really nothing more than a 26-30 minute 14/6 player who is the weak link of a starting lineup for a contender. He is really more of a 9/5 in 20 mins in a perfect situation with a better PF/C on the roster than Wilcox. 'Waiting to see' how the team does is meaningless to me b/c this is a forum to discuss what interests us, me, the fan about the Celtics. 

    Did you actually think I was proposing this trade NOW? You cannot trade recently signed FA's like Bass or Lee until like Dec 20th (at least thats how it used to be). We will have 2 months of Bass b/c this trade wouldn't go down until late Dec/early Jan at the earliest. But I'm 99% sure that barring an injury to Varejao there is nothing that Bass can do to make anyone think a swap of those players wouldn't make this team twice as scary and able to wina  title.

    Bass and Sully are both undersized PF's, we really need only one of them, neither can play C and Green will be getting around 10-15 mins at PF (hopefully no more than that). KG has 3 guys behind him at C who are not going to set the world on fire. Varejao can make his life so much easier as well.

    If Bradley is fully healthy (and should be a couple weeks before this trade becomes possible) and we know Dooling and PP can give spot mins at the 2 then Lee becomes a very expensive 14-18 minute SG who the team could sacrifice to get a better big. Cleveland has 6'3" combo-guard Waiters, they would see value in a 6'5" more pure SG who is only 27 and signed long-term at an easily accepted 5m per year. Sully is an OSU guy with a high ceiling. Melo is from Brazil like Varejao, a project who could play great D down the road while Zeller is more the offensice C. These are CLEARLY not 'pipe dream' trade ideas/offers.

    Bass, Melo and a pick or 2

    or Lee and Sully

    Are both VERY fair offers for Varejao. And if either trade was made, the Celtics would instantly become a better team, no matter what the current roster does in Nov/Dec, when I expect them to be VERY good. Yet I don't have to wait to see the Fall product before determining an upgrade that makes us more likely to be a champion in June. 

    You see two 6'8" PF's capable of 22-26 mins, when (b/c of Green) there are only about 34 mins to share, and you see Wilcox, a PF over most of his career, slotted in at 12-16 mins at C and you 100% know there is room there for a BIG upgrade if this team truly wants to win #18.

     
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    Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

    In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.:
    [QUOTE]Fierscest, Agree with you about current state of the team and possible trades for AV, McGee or whomever. If we talk purely hypothetical, sure, Bass for AV is a good trade. But their salaries are too far apart so, there's need for the 3rd player. I wouldn't add CL and definetely not AB. As for draft picks, I don't think DA would go for that: the team is still in a rebuilding mode. AK
    Posted by sinus007[/QUOTE]

    Bass for Varejao works salary wise 6.2 for 8.4, c'mon now

    and adding Melo and a 1st rd pick in the late 20's is still a great deal for us as we have a 1-2 year windown to win a title

     
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    Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

    In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons. : If the Celts are #1 in the east at the trade deadline, would you still break up the team just to get Varejao?
    Posted by Fiercest34[/QUOTE]

    Yes

    Unless we are #1 b/c Melo has exploded into a 16-18 mpg defensive force as a rookie AND Lee has had an outstanding 45% from 3, 13-16 ppg season and has kept Avery on the bench with shoulders slower to heal than expected.

    If we are relying on Bass and Wilcox to play 45-50 mins a game and Varejao is on the block and healthy as a defensive and rebounding upgrade then I will not hestitate to move Bass/Melo or Lee/Sully for him as long as Melo AND Lee are not in the situation I mentioned, since one of the two of them would have to be in the trade.

    The Cavs had the #1 record in the league at the '09 deadline and refused to move Big Ben for Shaq b/c they were playign so well and didn't want to 'disrupt anything'. It may have cost them an NBA title. At the least it cost the world a more entertaining and competitive LeBron/Shaq/Varejao vs. Kobe/Bynum/Pau NBA finals w/ LA not having homecourt. 

    Andy is an even less of a disruptive force entering this team via trade than shaq would have been to the '09 Cavs... and I would not like to see history repeat itself.

     
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    Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

    In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.:
    [QUOTE]rame I don't want to talk about trades right now because the Celts just completed their roster. I'll talk trades with you in February.
    Posted by Fiercest34[/QUOTE]

    Ok so stop responding to the posts and saying it is 'pointless to talk about it' only a petty obnoxious person who wants to start a fight would keep putting down others posts/ideas relentlessly when they are discussing a topic you have no interest in being a part of for 5 more months. So stop involving yourself.

    It is pathetic that you prefer teenage fights with LA fans to trade talk with real fans, but whatever floats your boat.

    And come the deadline you can trade Bass for Varejao

     
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    Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

    In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons. : Bass for Varejao works salary wise 6.2 for 8.4, c'mon now and adding Melo and a 1st rd pick in the late 20's is still a great deal for us as we have a 1-2 year windown to win a title
    Posted by rameakap[/QUOTE]

    ramekap,
    Actually, it doesn't work. Since the Celtics is a taxpayer, 6.2x1.25+100K=7.85.
    Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    AK
     
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    Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

    In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.:
    [QUOTE]This team needs to beat multiple teams and an upgrade is an upgrade any way you look at it. Backup C and/or taller PF who can board better than Green/bass is what the team needs right now. I would rather have Varejao to throw at Bosh while KG plays 32 mins to Bosh's 40 than I would Bass/Wilcox. I would rather have him playing Haslem or Joel Anthony as well. Wouldn't it be nice to have Varejao battling Chandler so KG can play Amare or the other way around with a guy the same height as Amare instead of 2" shorter? What about Boozer, David West, Collison, Perk (so KG can play Ibaka) Splitter who is almost 7' while KG plays Duncan, Humphries, a fellow 10-10 like Varejao, McGee is an active 10 boards type, Memphis has twin bigs with size and girth, Varejao on Griffin (and lots of times Green) So KG can play Jordan, on and on... Saying a contender 'doesn't need to upgrade' the weakest link in their rotation, that helps them vs. EVERY team they play, and not just LA, is pretty foolish, esp when Boston has a 1-2 year window and is currently behind at least 2 clubs in the 'favored to win' department. Just b/c I doubt LA gets past OKC and am 100% on board with the 'build a team to beat Miami and worry about the finals after; philosophy doesn't mean this team isn't in dire need of one more big for every single game vs. the best in the league.
    Posted by rameakap[/QUOTE]

    I love Andy Varejao's play, but be careful. He has only played in approx. 70% of all the games he could have possibly played. This was due to injuries and sitting some on the bench when he was learning how to play in the NBA.  However, I believe Cavs would trade him for the right deal. 
     
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    Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

    In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons. : ramekap, Actually, it doesn't work. Since the Celtics is a taxpayer, 6.2x1.25+100K=7.85. Please correct me if I'm wrong. AK
    Posted by sinus007[/QUOTE]

    Oh so we are a taxpapyer now? I was operating under the assumption of us remaining under the lux tax in order to be able to use the full MLE on Terry, but yeah we're prob over it by now.

    Eiher way you are discussing what looks to be about 650k off, when Melo makes twice that. Since I NEVER said the trade proposal was to be a straight swap this is pretty pointless. Cleve needs young recent 1st rd picks and future 1st's to make such a trade, we can do tha for them... come February C's could add just a player like Christmas and make the $ work.

    Varejao's 8.4m is not an obstacle AT ALL, in say the way Kaman's 12-14m was last year
     
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    Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

    In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons. : I love Andy Varejao's play, but be careful. He has only played in approx. 70% of all the games he could have possibly played. This was due to injuries and sitting some on the bench when he was learning how to play in the NBA.  However, I believe Cavs would trade him for the right deal. 
    Posted by cavaliersfan[/QUOTE]

    yes his injury history is the only major red flag. Despite Varejao being a far superior player to Bass he is not better if he is in a suit on the sidelines, BB is almost never hurt
     
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    Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

    In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons. : yes his injury history is the only major red flag. Despite Varejao being a far superior player to Bass he is not better if he is in a suit on the sidelines, BB is almost never hurt
    Posted by rameakap[/QUOTE]

    The biggest obstacle in that proposed trade is Cleveland will not trade away their most experienced player, and starting center for an undersized power forward. I was reading that Cleveland was counting on Varejao to be the leader of this very young team. I could see them moving him after this season, but not before or during this one, not unless they got a serviceable player to man the center position in return. I just don't see them giving up a reasonably priced center who averages a double double for anything the Celtics would be willing to part with.
     
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    Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

    In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons. : The biggest obstacle in that proposed trade is Cleveland will not trade away their most experienced player, and starting center for an undersized power forward. I was reading that Cleveland was counting on Varejao to be the leader of this very young team. I could see them moving him after this season, but not before or during this one, not unless they got a serviceable player to man the center position in return. 
    Posted by shonasty[/QUOTE]

    That is true if they are attempting to make the playoffs, and a good point b/c his hustle and leadership have serious value to a young team. But Cleve should focus on the '14 playoffs, not busting their rears to get the 8 seed this year. Come Jan/Feb if the choice is to keep Varejao and pick in the 11-15 range of the draft, or trade him for youth and get a 5-10 pick, it should be a no-brainer for them to move him. Another major obstacle of course is if a different team has a better trade package to offer.

    Bass (or Lee) are in this trade proposal for $ purposes. Although both are mature veteran borderline starters, they are not the main value for cleve in such a deal. don't get me wrong though, either of them would instantly help the '14 and '15 clubs that should think playoffs and be veteran leaders as well. Or they could be shipped off for value to a contender in the future, they are not washed up guys with big contracts nobody wants like when they got Baron Davis for example.

    The Celtics offer of a 1st rd pick and Melo for instance is the real value. And a Melo/Zeller C platoon would be good young offense/defense at a value position.

    Or Sully (in the package w/ Lee where C's keep Bass) just led OSY to a final 4 and would be a good young player for them to add with a different game that Tristan Thompson (more a Jeff Green combo type).

    The C's would prob not be offering those packages for Varejao after the season.
    So Cleve will be given very tempting deals, by boston and other contenders, to move Varejao by this deadline.
     
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    Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

    Hi,
    There's a couple other points that stack against BB-AV trade, IMO.
    1. Celtics are constructed to beat the Heat. If all current part are moving as DA envisioned and Doc prescribes I doubt that there'll be major changes to the roster, just tweaks, if any. The above mentioned trade is a major change - I doubt that DA and Doc would risk it, especially considering that there're only 3 or 4 opportunities for practice between the trade deadline and the beginning of the playoffs.
    2. The major difference between the two is that AV is better on D and BB is better on O. Last year Celtics were one of the best defensive teams and one of the worst at the other end. So, swapping BB for AV would not help in this department.

    But again, it's all hypothetical musings.

    AK
     
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    Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.

    In Response to Re: 2013 Celtics = 2004 detroit pistons.:
    [QUOTE]Hi, There's a couple other points that stack against BB-AV trade, IMO. 1. Celtics are constructed to beat the Heat. If all current part are moving as DA envisioned and Doc prescribes I doubt that there'll be major changes to the roster, just tweaks, if any. The above mentioned trade is a major change - I doubt that DA and Doc would risk it, especially considering that there're only 3 or 4 opportunities for practice between the trade deadline and the beginning of the playoffs. 2. The major difference between the two is that AV is better on D and BB is better on O. Last year Celtics were one of the best defensive teams and one of the worst at the other end. So, swapping BB for AV would not help in this department. But again, it's all hypothetical musings. AK
    Posted by sinus007[/QUOTE]

    Good points, the way I see it is like this:

    - Sully would likely be stealing Bass's mins by Dec/Jan

    - Sully cannot play C

    - Best case is the trade happens in January and not within hours of the deadline, but if it comes then so be it, an upgrade is an upgrade

    - Post trade Sully gets the few more mins he deserves (say a jump from 14-16 to 18-22) Varejao gets the remaining Bass mins (16-18), rests KG right away (there is 4-6 mins) and then slowly between Jan-April takes the Wilcox mins (12-16) as he gets acclimated to the team. Thats 35 mins end of the season and then 25-30 in the playoffs b/c KG/Green will get more.

    - Varejao plays a style that needs little time to adjust to. This is like PJ Brown taking over for Scott Pollard in '08. Defense, hustle, rebounds, extra chances, hard picks, etc. the team will love him.

    - The Celtics will play Green at PF when the Heat go with Battier or 'Bron at the 4, the lack of Bass does little to affect how we play Miami except take a lateral matchup (Haselm/Anthony vs. Bass) and give us the advantage there and keep KG more rested vs. Bosh. win-wins.

    - Andy is a career 7.3/7.2 in 25 mins. Bass is a career 8.4/4.4/ Last year they were at 10.8/11.4 and 12.5/6.2. The difference between 1-2 points, when you have 3-5 more boards, 2-3 more offensive boards, is not even worth mentioning, esp with superior size and defense.

    - Last years team had a bench of Dooling, 'Quis, Pietrus on bum knees and Steamer/Hollins in the playoffs. This year the bench is Terry, Lee or Avery, Green, Sully and Wilcox. A Major offensive upgrade. And if you trade Bass, Melo and a 1st you are not touching the bench and are upgrading 1 starter.
     

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