A better team without JO

  1. This post has been removed.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: A better team without JO

    In Response to A better team without JO:
    [QUOTE]We are a much better team without JO. The young bigs can run the floor with Rondo.
    Posted by Kirk6[/QUOTE]  BINGO !!!!!
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: A better team without JO

    You would think this is obvious, but the coach keeps this guy in.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: A better team without JO

    We are much better giving Wilcox, Stiemsma and Johnson... who are 6'9" 6'11" and 6'10" and long/reasonably fast over 6'8" Bass and 6'11" JO who are bulky and slower.

    The team also would be more dangerous with an upgrade at tall PG to pair with Avery and possibly even replace Rondo in the very end of close games based on his shooting (Doc might not have the stones to do this)

    So now who can you make like a 4 for 2 trade with to add those 2 solid rotational players?

    Bass/JO/Dooling and Moore, with maybe a pick thrown in, make an attractive 13 million in expiring contracts with 2 young assets as far as a package goes. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Petey62. Show Petey62's posts

    Re: A better team without JO

    We are not a better team without JON (and especially with Bass out).  Without JON we lose a dependable, experienced, veteran defensive-minded backup center (in Wilcox or JON if Wilcox starts).  If Wilcox starts, we gain loads of athleticism at the position but lose some defense.  And it takes away from our 2nd unit.  Our only backup at the position would then be Stiemsma who isn't yet ready to take on the role of our backup center.  Then we drain KG of his energy by playing him at the center position too.

    We need to conserve our players through this difficult season and go into the playoffs as healthy and rested as we can.  That gives us our best chance to advance.

    Wilcox, Stiemsma, KG and JJJ aren't enough to effectively man the center position this season.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: A better team without JO

    Dooling has been hurt but I had high hopes for him as a perfect complement to Avery who can defend SG's and run the point.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: A better team without JO

    In Response to Re: A better team without JO:
    [QUOTE]We are not a better team without JON (and especially with Bass out).  Without JON we lose a dependable, experienced, veteran defensive-minded backup center (in Wilcox or JON if Wilcox starts).  If Wilcox starts, we gain loads of athleticism at the position but lose some defense.  And it takes away from our 2nd unit.  Our only backup at the position would then be Stiemsma who isn't yet ready to take on the role of our backup center.  Then we drain KG of his energy by playing him at the center position too. We need to conserve our players through this difficult season and go into the playoffs as healthy and rested as we can.  That gives us our best chance to advance. Wilcox, Stiemsma, KG and JJJ aren't enough to effectively man the center position this season.
    Posted by Petey62[/QUOTE]  I THINK THAT KIRK IS SIMPLY SAYING....."WE CAN DO BETTER THAN JO" !!!  THATS WHAT A RONDO TRADE WOULD DO FOR US !!!
     
  8. This post has been removed.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Re: A better team without JO

    I don't believe JON will be a Celtic after the trade deadline. Even if Ainge gets peanuts for him, he's gone. He just doesn't add much value to the team and between Wilcox, Johnson and Steimsma I believe we can get better production, not HOPED FOR PRODUCTION.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: A better team without JO

    In Response to Re: A better team without JO:
    [QUOTE]I don't believe JON will be a Celtic after the trade deadline. Even if Ainge gets peanuts for him, he's gone. He just doesn't add much value to the team and between Wilcox, Johnson and Steimsma I believe we can get better production, not HOPED FOR PRODUCTION.
    Posted by BiasLewis[/QUOTE]ANOTHER BINGO !!!!!
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: A better team without JO

    look at the two best teams in the East, the ones we kanow we have to beat... Miami and Chicago (not Philly or Indy who we 'think' our experience would allow us to outlast in a 3-6 or 4-5 1st rd matchup) and think about what we need to beta them. 

    It's not going to be JO making the difference.

    JO can help with Boozer/Anthony as far as bulk... but I'd rather have Stiemsma/Wilcox and Johnson on Bosh and Noah (with a lot of KG as well) over JO.

    That means KG has to beat Boozer, and of course Anthony, in a +/- sense.
     
  12. This post has been removed.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: A better team without JO

    The point is about who we upgrade Jermaine (and maybe Bass) for.

    If We keep Bass and JO yes they play over Stiemsma/Wilcox/JJJ in the playoffs... but that doesn't mean they are better suited for the role.

    I like all 3 of those guys vs. an active player like Noah, or vs. the long/quick (but not overly aggressive) Bosh.

    You can go two directions with a trade:

    1. You ask KG to play more 5, b/c he is the same weight/height as Bosh/Noah, then when facing them worry only about defense and winning a battle of the boards and mixing it up in the paint. Limit the wandering around 17-21 feet away from the hoop.

    Then the player you trade Bass/JO for will need to be a PF who can outproduce Boozer and the Haslem/Anthony duo.

    2. KG is told he only has to worry about winning the +/- and rebounding battles with Boozer and Haslem/Anthony, guys 2-4" shorter than him. 

    Then the player we trade for has to be able to play the 5, seriously limit Bosh and Noah, hold them to under their regular season stats and change the face of the team in the process. What Perk did, what we hoped JO would do, etc.

    That is how we can have a shot... make a trade that allows us to pull even with and disrupt the Bulls/Heat at the 4-5 spots. Then if it is Miami Pierce/Ray have to be 80% stat-wise of what LeBron/Wade are with Rondo BLOWING THEM UP with trip-dub's and if it is Chicago Rondo has to be 80% of Rose with Ray/Pierce/Pietrus blowing up Rip/Brewer/Deng.
     
  14. This post has been removed.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from walk2run. Show walk2run's posts

    Re: A better team without JO

    I think it's time to move Dooling...I think he's gonna be on the injured list more than on the court. I would like for DA to investigate obtaining OJ Mayo since Memphis doesn't want him.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Petey62. Show Petey62's posts

    Re: A better team without JO

    I guess I did not understand Kirk's post.  Are we better without JON if we bring in Joel Prysbilla?  Are we better without JON if we bring in Kaman?  Right now, as JON is injured, the Celtics do not have JON and nobody is walking through that door.  We are not better because we have no interior presence.  With him we have somebody who can play defense as least.  Without him, Wilcox is decent but he is not strong enough.

    Some of you are too funny (rameakap).  What in the world makes some of you think that our only "concerns" should be Miami and Chicago?  We are the 7th seed in the Eastern Conference and some of you act like we're the number 3 seed.  What playoff team (with at least their starting playoff five) have this Celtics team beaten this season so far?

    What advantage has our "experience" afforded us so far this season?  It would be foolish to think that our "experience" will somehow allow us to outlast ANYBODY in the playoffs.  It's amazing that some of you think Wilcox and KG or Stiemsma and JJJ will be adequate centers for the playoffs.  They are not adequate NOW!

    I agree with Bill that we can do better than JON in a trade and I surely hope we can pull one off that improves us at the center position.  But Fierce, Wilcox has never played in a playoff game in his entire career and you think HE will be the center come playoff time.  He should provide valuable BACKUP minutes and nothing more.

    Wilcox is establishing himself as a capable backup with his energy but let's not let 2 or 3 games give us a false impression that he is a major answer to our center problems.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Re: A better team without JO

    I worry more about Indiana than Chicago or Miami. Unless we can get all the way up to the 4th seed it's going to be an early exit.

    I say
    Miami
    Chicago
    Indy

    I think it's going to be nip and tuck between Boston and Philly on who gets #4. Orlando is going to implode and Atlanta is well Atlanta.
     
  18. This post has been removed.

     
  19. This post has been removed.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: A better team without JO

    Wilcox has had a few good games, but a leapard does not change his spots.  Wilcox isn't all of a sudden become a star center for a championship contending team.  He will have a few great games and will be a very nice backup....I love his hustle.  

    Like so many other days, this Board gets too down on someone's bad days and too up on someone's good days.  Wilcox isn't going to morph into something he's never been in his entire career.  He's a back up and that's all....and can be a darn good one.

    JON is a waste.  I hope he's gone at trade time.....but I can't imagine someone wanting him.  We may be stuck.   I hope we get a starting center so KG can continue to play great without the pressure of being a starting center....which he is NOT.   

    As for Bass - I love Bass. I'm not with anyone who wants to trade Bass.  JJJ is a rookie and is a good player, but he's not going to replace Bass.  We need all the tools we have for this year's playoffs and we need to keep the young tools (Bass, JJJ, Moore, Rondo, Hopefully Green) to build on as the Big 3 transition out next year.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Petey62. Show Petey62's posts

    Re: A better team without JO

    In Response to Re: A better team without JO:
    [QUOTE]Wilcox has had a few good games, but a leapard does not change his spots.  Wilcox isn't all of a sudden become a star center for a championship contending team.  He will have a few great games and will be a very nice backup....I love his hustle.   Like so many other days, this Board gets too down on someone's bad days and too up on someone's good days.  Wilcox isn't going to morph into something he's never been in his entire career.  He's a back up and that's all....and can be a darn good one. JON is a waste.  I hope he's gone at trade time.....but I can't imagine someone wanting him.  We may be stuck.   I hope we get a starting center so KG can continue to play great without the pressure of being a starting center....which he is NOT.    As for Bass - I love Bass. I'm not with anyone who wants to trade Bass.  JJJ is a rookie and is a good player, but he's not going to replace Bass.  We need all the tools we have for this year's playoffs and we need to keep the young tools (Bass, JJJ, Moore, Rondo, Hopefully Green) to build on as the Big 3 transition out next year.
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]
    Celtsfan, you are so right.  A voice of reason, as always.  I would love the Celtics to make a trade to upgrade the center position but it's ludicrous to think that Wilcox, Stiemsma, KG and JJJ can adequately man the center position for a team with aspirations of contending, or better yet winning one series, in the playoffs.

    I love Wilcox and JJJ's athleticism.  I love Wilcox's energy but, by no means, is this guy a center for a contender.

    It would be nice to obtain via trade a solid center and integrate Wilcox, Stiemsma and others as backups ALL while allowing KG to stay at the PF position.  For all Bass has done so far, its ridiculous for folks to be calling for us to trade HIM!

    I just hope someone wants to take him (JON) off our hands to get offseason cap space if not to outright buy him out.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Accension13. Show Accension13's posts

    Re: A better team without JO

    In Response to Re: A better team without JO:
    [QUOTE]I guess I did not understand Kirk's post.  Are we better without JON if we bring in Joel Prysbilla?  Are we better without JON if we bring in Kaman?  Right now, as JON is injured, the Celtics do not have JON and nobody is walking through that door.  We are not better because we have no interior presence.  With him we have somebody who can play defense as least.  Without him, Wilcox is decent but he is not strong enough. Some of you are too funny (rameakap).  What in the world makes some of you think that our only "concerns" should be Miami and Chicago?  We are the 7th seed in the Eastern Conference and some of you act like we're the number 3 seed.  What playoff team (with at least their starting playoff five) have this Celtics team beaten this season so far? What advantage has our "experience" afforded us so far this season?  It would be foolish to think that our "experience" will somehow allow us to outlast ANYBODY in the playoffs.  It's amazing that some of you think Wilcox and KG or Stiemsma and JJJ will be adequate centers for the playoffs.  They are not adequate NOW! I agree with Bill that we can do better than JON in a trade and I surely hope we can pull one off that improves us at the center position.  But Fierce, Wilcox has never played in a playoff game in his entire career and you think HE will be the center come playoff time.  He should provide valuable BACKUP minutes and nothing more. Wilcox is establishing himself as a capable backup with his energy but let's not let 2 or 3 games give us a false impression that he is a major answer to our center problems.
    Posted by Petey62[/QUOTE]

    I think what the other posters are meaning is that even though the C's are currently a 7 seed, the only teams that this team as currently constructed have no chance at beating in the playoffs is Miami and Chicago. The other teams, even if they are healthy, are all questionable, and this C's team has the potential to put it together come playoff time to beat them. Besides that, we are only a 3rd into this current season. I dont think you can project at this time that the C's will remain a 7 seed. Assuming no major injuries, I could see this team as a 3rd or 4th seed in the playoffs. With that being said, changes have to be made to give this team a chance to compete in ECF and then Finals. The C's need another reliable go to option. Someone other than Pierce that can be depended on to get their own shot in the clutch. Gasol could be that player. What Fierce is saying is if this team gets Gasol (or Kaman), then Wilcox could be the backup center. Gasol would be the first domino that would fall for the Celtics. The 2nd would be a PG replacement for Rondo. There will be options around the trade deadline. With this team, I dont think they have to get a true PG. Somebody with good ball handling skills like a JR Smith or Monta Ellis could be an option. Then this team could operate like the Jordan's Bulls and basically have a PG by comittee.

    Going another route... Seeing more articles about a potential Nash trade. If the C's could somehow package Rondo for Nash and Gortat, two areas of concern get addressed in a single trade
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: A better team without JO

    Accension, we're not in disagreement on whether the C's COULD go further with a better big man.   Like you, I believe they COULD make it to a 3 or 4 seed.  The team is certainly improving all the time.  If you agree that JJJ, Steimsma, and Wilcox are not the starters nor are they the right Center by Committee, then we are in agreement.  

    The issues I see are:

    1. Can we really expect to get a Gasol for a Rondo (or anyone else)?  No, in my opinion.  We would have to give up too much to get Gasol, assuming the Lakers really try to move him.
    2. Is Kaman really a center that we seek?  Better than JON but not a center who's going to play D as well and not one who I see carrying us to a championship.   I would like to pick him up.  We can agree on that.
    3. If this team can run more with the young guys, will that make them a better team?   Yes, IMO.  
    3. Can we really challenge with the "point guard by committee" if we trade Rondo for a big man?  No, IMO.  Rondo makes the running game effective with the big guys and he gets the ball to the old guys in their spots.  Without an effective point guard - we can beat the weak teams (as we have), but Petey and I seem to be in agreement that we have NOT seen this team beat the best teams without a point guard.  So, I conclude we need a good point guard.
    4. I like Nash.  He brings a lot.  Unfortunately, the D will suffer more than you think.  Phoenix was not just a bad Defensive team due to D'Antoni.  It was also the fact that Amare and Nash had NO interest in playing defense.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Accension13. Show Accension13's posts

    Re: A better team without JO

    In Response to Re: A better team without JO:
    [QUOTE]Accension, we're not in disagreement on whether the C's COULD go further with a better big man.   Like you, I believe they COULD make it to a 3 or 4 seed.  The team is certainly improving all the time.  If you agree that JJJ, Steimsma, and Wilcox are not the starters nor are they the right Center by Committee, then we are in agreement.   The issues I see are: 1. Can we really expect to get a Gasol for a Rondo (or anyone else)?  No, in my opinion.  We would have to give up too much to get Gasol, assuming the Lakers really try to move him. 2. Is Kaman really a center that we seek?  Better than JON but not a center who's going to play D as well and not one who I see carrying us to a championship.   I would like to pick him up.  We can agree on that. 3. If this team can run more with the young guys, will that make them a better team?   Yes, IMO.   3. Can we really challenge with the "point guard by committee" if we trade Rondo for a big man?  No, IMO.  Rondo makes the running game effective with the big guys and he gets the ball to the old guys in their spots.  Without an effective point guard - we can beat the weak teams (as we have), but Petey and I seem to be in agreement that we have NOT seen this team beat the best teams without a point guard.  So, I conclude we need a good point guard. 4. I like Nash.  He brings a lot.  Unfortunately, the D will suffer more than you think.  Phoenix was not just a bad Defensive team due to D'Antoni.  It was also the fact that Amare and Nash had NO interest in playing defense.
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]

    I agree with you. Your points are all things that I have thought of especially how a Nash acquisition would change the C's defensive identity. That is definitely the downside to that move. Even moreso than the fact that Nash is old.

    Two things though... The possibility of a Rondo\Gasol trade is very uncertain; however, the fact that it makes a lot of sense for both teams cannot be argued. I was watching the Lakers\Toronto game yesterday and the commentators brought up that trade rumor. They argued that it would not happen because its a bad deal for the C's (ESPN commentators said the same). Trading a young star for an old Gasol.  I say that to say everything depends on the perspective of the team. The Lakers are desperate for a PG right now. They dont want to be a non-factor in the playoffs. The best option at that position for them may be Rondo. Kobe and Rondo would be a dynamic backcourt. Plus, trading Gasol could help them financially. Rondo makes less and whoever the C's package with him will likely be let go by the Lakers to clear cap space this offseason. Both the Lakers and C's are in similar positions. If this move is made, both will likely be looking to make another move to push them over the top. The Lakers want Howard and they will likely get him, so them moving Gasol is likely dependent on that too.

    Finally, the PG by committee thing. I was making that suggestion only if the C's traded Rondo for Gasol, and no good true PG could be acquired. I believe it could work because Doc is an excellent play caller and the offense flowed so well with Rondo out. Going forward, I know Avery and Moore are not good enough to make it work over the long term; however, a talented offensive player like Monta Ellis or JR Smith could make it work. They would have to buy into the C's system, which is not a given, but it could be a risk worth taking. Players like Ellis and Smith could be good defensively too. Obviously, there is a dowside to this move, but if the chemistry works it could get them past Miami and Chicago
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Petey62. Show Petey62's posts

    Re: A better team without JO

    Well said Celtsfan.  There are too many "unknowns" for this to work out well for the Celtics.  Just too many risks.  I doubt the Celtics could even obtain Gasol in a trade without giving up too much and setting ourselves back.

    Kaman is a decent center but WE DON'T DOUBLE HIM so what makes anyone think he'll come here, command a double team and free up our perimeter shooters?  Who believes he'll come to Boston and become the rebounding and defensive center we'll need him to become?  Much too much of an "unknown".

    We are in a prime position this offseason and I just don't see mortgaging that to get someone like, realistically, Kaman and a PG by committee and get eliminated in the 1st round anyway.

    And I think one thing we're all missing is that this Celtics team has not performed well on the road.  This first third of the season has been the easiest one-third of the season and we're barely over .500.  When we hit the road and experience some back to backs, I wonder if this team has the mental toughness to grind out wins when they are weary from the travel.

    And if the past means anything, we get really bad in the 2nd half of seasons.  We usually tail off significantly during the 2nd half of the season and why would this season be any different (and don't blame it on the Perk trade when this has been a trend for the past 3/4 years).  With the age issue and lack of mental toughness displayed thus far, I would not be surprised to see us struggle to capture that 8th seed.

    Philly is for real and NY is going to be better with Lin being that long-lost PG.
     

Share