AVERY over RAY as the starter... ANY MORE WHINES ABOUT THE GREAT DOC AS A COACH?

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    [QUOTE]Its up to bradley, i think he might have been feeling the pressure a little bit...he just needs to get more confortable with the starting role..I mean you just took a HOFs spot, and not because of injuries... This kid is going to be a solid  starter for years to come,  maybe an all star game here and there.. .Danny knows his stuff....I knew this kid had talent, and with his D,  i thought he might be a decent backup, i  had no idea he would be scary  good ..better than Tony Allen....
    Posted by Ortiz123[/QUOTE]

     And he's still feeling out the NBA game as he goes, learning the things he can do. It's going to be fun to watch his development over the next couple of years as he carves his game.  

     Tony was great for those 6/7 possession runs where he stifled Lebron and Kobe even.  I don't think AB will do that to the bigger three's like Tony could however, he's showed that he can limit the best 2's for an entire game with his performance against DWade.  That's something Tony couldn't do.  Once AB learns the limits of his game and then plays within himself while working to bring something new every year, it's going to be a good career.

     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: AVERY or RAY to start? :  By Ray making the call, it's better for the team's unity and Bradley's comfort over the situation.  Doc allowing it to happen in a more organic (better for the big picture) way shows me that he is the leader of a great team culture.  It couldn't happen in a better way than for Ray to shift his own role and point to AB saying "go on young man, I got your back". 
    Posted by passfirst[/QUOTE]

    Sounds suspiciously like lockerroom group therapy instead of coaching to me.

    Pud
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: AVERY or RAY to start? :  By Ray making the call, it's better for the team's unity and Bradley's comfort over the situation.  Doc allowing it to happen in a more organic (better for the big picture) way shows me that he is the leader of a great team culture.  It couldn't happen in a better way than for Ray to shift his own role and point to AB saying "go on young man, I got your back". 
    Posted by passfirst[/QUOTE]

    you know, you are correct, in the spirit of the KC Jones modus operandi of "hands off"...  but then again, this is a different league now.  and KC Jones didn't relate to younger players.  he parked a ready-to-go reggie lewis for years before he was allowed to contribute.

    this "team culture" you talk about expires at the end of this season when 1 or 2 of the old 3 go away.  it's a bygone coaching method in a league full of sycophants and as you see with KC Jones, he didn't last long once the pieces started aging and difficult decisions needed to be made with younger players contributing more.  not even difficult decisions at that.

    i stand behind what i say, when i say firmly that ray-as-3rd-man is a 2009 concept that is just now coming to fruition.  forget about avery bradley per se.  you could have started paris hilton at the 2 or whatever we had at the time (TONY ALLEN, another DEFENSIVE STALWART) and had a more effective team starting in 2009. 

    instead, ray, for better or worse has been run over 35 minutes a night since we've had him.  that's the wrong decision, the wrong coaching, the wrong results in the playoffs when ray curls up and dies because he's been over-used.

    so what seems like great "team culture" is 3 years late and now you have to rely on doc to work out the dynamics of minutes flow and rotations- who does ray play with?  he came into the game and played with four starters when he came in.  conventional basic wisdom would say get pierce or garnett out of there when ray comes in, no?

    all in all, it's more than just a change in starting lineup, it's a difference of who plays with who and WHEN.  doc hasnt' shown me a lot of ability to work through things like this.  unless he was given only one answer, then you just have to pick and go with it like when kg got hurt, the powe got hurt and davis had to play the 4, period.  no decision there, just attrition. 

    this is different....  more complicated
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: AVERY or RAY to start? : Sometimes doc leads... sometime he follows. It really depends on the circumstances. Usually he listens to his favorite players to keep them happy and contented... and lets them decide. But then again, get on docs bad side by being a PITA  and he might coach you right out of town. Any names come to mind??? Pud
    Posted by puddinpuddin[/QUOTE]

    another jab at davis.  that's ok, man.  but the bottom line is that davis would be mopping up minutes at the 5 and making life a lot easier for KG right now if we had him, and still also be able to mop up 4 minutes.

    davis brought help defense, hustle the likes of which has not been seen in a celtic uniform in a long time.  he was also a huge man who could body around the biggest baddest 5's in the leaugue.  yes, he struggled against more athletic 4's.  but with kg booking minutes at the 4, davis' exposure would be minimal this year as he'd be at the 5.

    and we'd be better off if we still had davis rather than KG and steamer at the 5.  davis and steamer at the 5 is a better lineup.

    funny how davis was so much of a pain but none of the players never said a word bad about him while he was here or since he's been gone.  he was not perfect but he brought a lot to the table that we could sure use right now.

    bass is no knockout rebounder, bobbles the ball a lot, is an inferior passer, a terrible passer in traffic and does some other things well.  last night i observed him start 1-4 or 1-5 on straight up jumpers from distance with people on him, no driving the ball, or posting up.  i'm not overwhelmed with bass in a positive light or negative light.  he is what he is.  and he can't play 5.

    the PITA aspect was something that was fostered by doc and got out of control because of doc.  you know who reminds me more of PITA than davis?  rasheed wallace.  doc didn't give him a hard time at all.  he didn't even make sheed get into shape!  didn't make him earn his minutes either.
     
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    Re: AVERY over RAY as the starter... ANY MORE WHINES ABOUT THE GREAT DOC AS A COACH?

    or pudd- just imagine for yourself KG, playing his BEST BALL in three years, playing against 4's instead of 5's this year.  that's what i'm talking about.  i think KG would probably be averaging 18 and 10 by now and would have definitely been even more dominant.  he's playing great ball despite impersonating a 5.  he's coming up on 36.....  grinding against 5's in a slow down playoff style of game.....  going to get tired. 

    he's even POSTING these days.  he's going inside.  if fatso was here to mop the 5 minutes and spread the floor the same way bass does, i see a better team.  i'm all about the best team, not who has shinier looking muscles or weighs a little bit less.
     
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    Re: AVERY over RAY as the starter... ANY MORE WHINES ABOUT THE GREAT DOC AS A COACH?

    In Response to Re: AVERY over RAY as the starter... ANY MORE WHINES ABOUT THE GREAT DOC AS A COACH?:
    [QUOTE]I think Ray should sit. It's time to retire.
    Posted by Kirk6[/QUOTE]

    Because you think Daniels and Dooling and Sasha are better?  It's always all or nothing with you. It's fine to say that Allen should only get 20 minutes, I don't agree with it but it's fine.

    If you really think the Celtics are better with him not on the roster you have no idea what you are talking about.  There isn't a single team in the NBA that wouldn't want him on the roster.

     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: AVERY or RAY to start? : another jab at davis.  that's ok, man.  but the bottom line is that davis would be mopping up minutes at the 5 and making life a lot easier for KG right now if we had him, and still also be able to mop up 4 minutes. davis brought help defense, hustle the likes of which has not been seen in a celtic uniform in a long time.  he was also a huge man who could body around the biggest baddest 5's in the leaugue.  yes, he struggled against more athletic 4's.  but with kg booking minutes at the 4, davis' exposure would be minimal this year as he'd be at the 5. and we'd be better off if we still had davis rather than KG and steamer at the 5.  davis and steamer at the 5 is a better lineup. funny how davis was so much of a pain but none of the players never said a word bad about him while he was here or since he's been gone.  he was not perfect but he brought a lot to the table that we could sure use right now. bass is no knockout rebounder, bobbles the ball a lot, is an inferior passer, a terrible passer in traffic and does some other things well.  last night i observed him start 1-4 or 1-5 on straight up jumpers from distance with people on him, no driving the ball, or posting up.  i'm not overwhelmed with bass in a positive light or negative light.  he is what he is.  and he can't play 5. the PITA aspect was something that was fostered by doc and got out of control because of doc.  you know who reminds me more of PITA than davis?  rasheed wallace.  doc didn't give him a hard time at all.  he didn't even make sheed get into shape!  didn't make him earn his minutes either.
    Posted by aciemvp[/QUOTE]

    Not really. doc didn't cotton to BBD and ran him out of town.

    Seems odd that he could practice the "patience of Job" toward  other PITAs including R9R and Sheed but BBD seemed to catch a surprising amount of flack considering his leniency toward others.

    Black-sheep-itis???

    Probably.

    Pud
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: AVERY or RAY to start? : Why would doc need cherries to deal with a non-issue like who starts then? Shouldn't he be standing firmly on your principle that.... minutes are minutes? Pud
    Posted by puddinpuddin[/QUOTE]

    Nice straw man.  Just because my principle is minutes are minutes doesn't mean that a future HOFer wants to be told he is starting the game on the bench for Avery Bradley.  People have egos.  I am sure you are aware of this.

     
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    Re: AVERY over RAY as the starter... ANY MORE WHINES ABOUT THE GREAT DOC AS A COACH?

    In Response to Re: AVERY over RAY as the starter... ANY MORE WHINES ABOUT THE GREAT DOC AS A COACH?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: AVERY over RAY as the starter... ANY MORE WHINES ABOUT THE GREAT DOC AS A COACH? : Because you think Daniels and Dooling and Sasha are better?  It's always all or nothing with you. It's fine to say that Allen should only get 20 minutes, I don't agree with it but it's fine. If you really think the Celtics are better with him not on the roster you have no idea what you are talking about.  There isn't a single team in the NBA that wouldn't want him on the roster.
    Posted by snakeoil123[/QUOTE]SNAKE, ur always the voice of reason. ray consistently takes and hits the ice water 3 or long distance shot.. teams fear him and can always use that skill. cant find it off the street. who else can do that for us ? pp sometimes, but peach is very inconsistent and has to be wide open and standing perfectly still to have a shot at making it. sasha? dooling? rondo like last night? oh please! ray is special, he could do this for 2 more years at an elite level. u just dont want him to be a starter or being a defensive stopper in the final seconds of a key game. he does enough other things at an elite level to keep him around for a few more years. in 2 more games as his rhythm and legs come back, he'll be the same special guy he was for most of the previous 10 games before his injury. at many times this season, ray has been the best or second best player on the team! 
     
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    Re: AVERY or RAY to start?

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: AVERY or RAY to start? : Nice straw man.  Just because my principle is minutes are minutes doesn't mean that a future HOFer wants to be told he is starting the game on the bench for Avery Bradley.  People have egos.  I am sure you are aware of this.
    Posted by snakeoil123[/QUOTE]

    That's the coach's job.. to tell players what they may not want to hear.... but what their play reveals that they need to hear.

    It shouldn't take cherries to do so... unless starting is a much bigger deal than you let on. Which it must be.

    Argue one side or the other of the issue... but not both.

    Pud
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: AVERY or RAY to start? : That's the coach's job.. to tell players what they may not want to hear.... but what their play reveals that they need to hear. It shouldn't take cherries to do so... unless starting is a much bigger deal than you let on. Which it must be. Argue one side or the other of the issue... but not both. Pud
    Posted by puddinpuddin[/QUOTE]

    You're being silly. Your point is the definition of a straw man argument. "well if starting doesn't matter then why might Doc have a hard time telling Ray that"?  If this is your point the mind boggles.

    I am only arguing one side of the issue. You're talking about two different issues.

    Do minutes played matter more than who starts?  Of course.

    Do sometimes coaches or managers at any sort of professional level have a hard time telling people news they don't like to hear?  Of course.

    If you think that is the same issue then I cannot help you. I know it is Doc's job to tell people what they might not want to hear.  I surmised that he failed at his job.  

     I don't think it matters who starts.  But some players do.  Players have egos.  Coaches at times will kowtow to egos.  We all know this.  

    You aren't making any sort of coherent point. It is irrelevant whether or not Allen or Bradley start if they both play a lot of minutes.  





     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: AVERY or RAY to start? : That's the coach's job.. to tell players what they may not want to hear.... but what their play reveals that they need to hear. It shouldn't take cherries to do so... unless starting is a much bigger deal than you let on. Which it must be. Argue one side or the other of the issue... but not both. Pud
    Posted by puddinpuddin[/QUOTE]pud, whether RA approached doc or not, really doesnt matter.. ray saw something, some hint was delivered. either way doc had the ultimate choice to accept his resignation or not. he chose to accept it and make it so. doc is the ultimate decider. doesnt work, on him. so when it works, his credit too.. got that? fact that its not a contentious thing bodes well for doc and this team. look at orlando, have the wrong leader and thats your fate. ray wouldnt have "volunteered" on most teams. i c the big 3 together for the next 2 years as pp's deal runs out. eventually, kg could be joining ray on that bench and if jeff green thrives, pp could be there as well. is there a better bench than these 3 guys? if we get humphries and hibbert during the offseason and green performs, youth would dominate the starting unit. then you can have a stud bench and a ring worthy team! give doc his props! 

    STARTING does matter on an ego level. its natural that doc would not want to step on that ego of ray's at this time without seeing how it would work with RA in there initially. to ray;'s credit, by going toi doc, he made it clear his ego was not above the interests of the team and not so bliinded by it. doc accepted it. kudos to BOTH!
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: AVERY or RAY to start? : You're being silly. Your point is the definition of a straw man argument. "well if starting doesn't matter then why might Doc have a hard time telling Ray that"?  If this is your point the mind boggles. I am only arguing one side of the issue. You're talking about two different issues. Do minutes played matter more than who starts?  Of course. Do sometimes coaches or managers at any sort of professional level have a hard time telling people news they don't like to hear?  Of course. If you think that is the same issue then I cannot help you. I know it is Doc's job to tell people what they might not want to hear.  I surmised that he failed at his job.    I don't think it matters who starts.  But some players do.  Players have egos.  Coaches at times will kowtow to egos.  We all know this.   You aren't making any sort of coherent point. It is irrelevant whether or not Allen or Bradley start if they both play a lot of minutes.  
    Posted by snakeoil123[/QUOTE]

    Try telling RA that starting is an irrelevant issue. It's clearly not.... no matter how the minutes are divided. Yes egos are involved.

    According to you, doc bowed to pressure and was forced to put the issue of starting on the table after the Spurs game... when he was reluctant to do so... and only after he found his cherries.

    That's the issue in a nutshell. Nothing silly about it. Doc finally did his job.

    Pud
     
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    Re: AVERY over RAY as the starter... ANY MORE WHINES ABOUT THE GREAT DOC AS A COACH?

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    [QUOTE]or pudd- just imagine for yourself KG, playing his BEST BALL in three years, playing against 4's instead of 5's this year.  that's what i'm talking about.  i think KG would probably be averaging 18 and 10 by now and would have definitely been even more dominant.  he's playing great ball despite impersonating a 5.  he's coming up on 36.....  grinding against 5's in a slow down playoff style of game.....  going to get tired.  he's even POSTING these days.  he's going inside.  if fatso was here to mop the 5 minutes and spread the floor the same way bass does, i see a better team.  i'm all about the best team, not who has shinier looking muscles or weighs a little bit less.
    Posted by aciemvp[/QUOTE]I disagree, there are more dominant 4's than 5's now in the NBA and it is no shock that KG is playing better ball at 5 than he did for 2 seasons plus the start of this one at the 4.

    I agree that KG will get worn down in playoffs, he would at 4 or 5. This is an old team that is a playoff as constructed not a championship team. It isn't Rivers' fault or Ainge's. It is gravity and the march of time that happens in sports. Everything is cyclical and this cycle was going to be short when the team was built on the 30 something Big Three. 

     

     
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    Re: AVERY over RAY as the starter... ANY MORE WHINES ABOUT THE GREAT DOC AS A COACH?

    Doesn't matter who starts.  Ray started against Spurs, we lead almost the whole first quarter and then their bench killed us because our bench can plan NO DEFENSE.  Then Bradley started against the Bulls and it didn't matter - we lost anyway.

    Why the huge debate over who starts?  The issue is how many minutes each one plays and at what times.  Then, the BIGGER issue is how well PP and KG and Rondo play.  When those 3 play well, they can do it with Ray OR with Bradley.   Bradley is not the game changer.....KG and PP playing like they did a few games ago is the bigger factor (that and hoping we can play the Wizards, Bucks, Charlotte, Utah, and Minnesota all the time like we did in our win streak!!).
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: AVERY or RAY to start? : Try telling RA that starting is an irrelevant issue. It's clearly not.... no matter how the minutes are divided. Yes egos are involved. According to you, doc bowed to pressure and was forced to put the issue of starting on the table after the Spurs game... when he was reluctant to do so... and only after he found his cherries. That's the issue in a nutshell. Nothing silly about it. Doc finally did his job. Pud
    Posted by puddinpuddin[/QUOTE]

    According to me?   I said "If i were to guess" and then I said "of course that is a wildy uneducated guess."  

    guess/ges/

    Verb:
    Estimate or suppose (something) without sufficient information to be sure of being correct.

    This conversation was a waste of time.

    My whole point was that if Bradley gets big minutes who cares whether he starts or not.  

    If you want we can get back to talking about that.  Unless you want to keep talking about my guess.


     
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    Re: AVERY over RAY as the starter... ANY MORE WHINES ABOUT THE GREAT DOC AS A COACH?

    In Response to Re: AVERY over RAY as the starter... ANY MORE WHINES ABOUT THE GREAT DOC AS A COACH?:
    [QUOTE]Doesn't matter who starts.  Ray started against Spurs, we lead almost the whole first quarter and then their bench killed us because our bench can plan NO DEFENSE.  Then Bradley started against the Bulls and it didn't matter - we lost anyway. Why the huge debate over who starts?  The issue is how many minutes each one plays and at what times.  Then, the BIGGER issue is how well PP and KG and Rondo play.  When those 3 play well, they can do it with Ray OR with Bradley.   Bradley is not the game changer.....KG and PP playing like they did a few games ago is the bigger factor (that and hoping we can play the Wizards, Bucks, Charlotte, Utah, and Minnesota all the time like we did in our win streak!!).
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]

    Exactly.  The whole things gets tiresome.  Bradley played less in the game he started against the Bulls than the game he came off the bench against the Spurs.
     
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    Re: AVERY or RAY to start?

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: AVERY or RAY to start? : According to me?   I said "If i were to guess" and then I said "of course that is a wildy uneducated guess."   guess /ges/ Verb: Estimate or suppose (something) without sufficient information to be sure of being correct. This conversation was a waste of time. My whole point was that if Bradley gets big minutes who cares whether he starts or not.   If you want we can get back to talking about that.  Unless you want to keep talking about my guess.
    Posted by snakeoil123[/QUOTE]

    Lots of folks cared. It made prominent mention on the various sports pages. It was a big to-do.

    Whether  or not it should have been a big to-do.... it was.

    Your "guess" was right on the $$$ and agreed perfectly with my "guess."

    End of story/pi$$ing contest.

    Pud
     
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    Re: AVERY over RAY as the starter... ANY MORE WHINES ABOUT THE GREAT DOC AS A COACH?

    Umm well that's a very nice narrative you constructed CC but the best information for now says that Ray asked for the move, and Doc likely wouldn't have done it if Ray hadn't asked to come off the bench. If that's the case, Doc gets no credit at all as he should have been the one to sit Ray down and explain the situation and why he needs to come off the bench. 

    We'll see if the full truth comes out but for now, Ray gets the credit and Doc, well, Doc is Doc but he doesn't get to put this feather in his cap.
     
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    Re: AVERY or RAY to start?

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: AVERY or RAY to start? : Lots of folks cared. It made prominent mention on the various sports pages. It was a big to-do. Whether  or not it should have been a big to-do.... it was. Your "guess" was right on the $$$ and agreed perfectly with my "guess." End of story/pi$$ing contest. Pud
    Posted by puddinpuddin[/QUOTE]

    Seriously.  Now Semantics.  "lots of folks cared".  One more try for your benefit.

    People should not care whether or not Bradley starts or not.  What is more concerning is how many minutes he plays.  I do understand that people actually do care as players have egos and fans are fans.  

    Note to self: next time Pud asks a question do not answer. If you do you will be drawn into an endless back and forth about nothing substantial.



     
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    [QUOTE]On the bright side, 4 months ago who whould've thought that this would even be a debate? I'm happy Bradley's developed nicely. We all should be.
    Posted by kivanc[/QUOTE]

    Agree with you.  We have to be thankful that Bradley has developed into a good player.  If he hadn't developed we probably would have lost more games.  He was the reason that we won some games this season. 
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: AVERY or RAY to start? : you know, you are correct, in the spirit of the KC Jones modus operandi of "hands off"...  but then again, this is a different league now.  and KC Jones didn't relate to younger players.  he parked a ready-to-go reggie lewis for years before he was allowed to contribute. this "team culture" you talk about expires at the end of this season when 1 or 2 of the old 3 go away.  it's a bygone coaching method in a league full of sycophants and as you see with KC Jones, he didn't last long once the pieces started aging and difficult decisions needed to be made with younger players contributing more.  not even difficult decisions at that. i stand behind what i say, when i say firmly that ray-as-3rd-man is a 2009 concept that is just now coming to fruition.  forget about avery bradley per se.  you could have started paris hilton at the 2 or whatever we had at the time (TONY ALLEN, another DEFENSIVE STALWART) and had a more effective team starting in 2009.  instead, ray, for better or worse has been run over 35 minutes a night since we've had him.  that's the wrong decision, the wrong coaching, the wrong results in the playoffs when ray curls up and dies because he's been over-used. so what seems like great "team culture" is 3 years late and now you have to rely on doc to work out the dynamics of minutes flow and rotations- who does ray play with?  he came into the game and played with four starters when he came in.  conventional basic wisdom would say get pierce or garnett out of there when ray comes in, no? all in all, it's more than just a change in starting lineup, it's a difference of who plays with who and WHEN.  doc hasnt' shown me a lot of ability to work through things like this.  unless he was given only one answer, then you just have to pick and go with it like when kg got hurt, the powe got hurt and davis had to play the 4, period.  no decision there, just attrition.  this is different....  more complicated
    Posted by aciemvp[/QUOTE]

     Good post,...  nice reference with K.C.'s team...  more complicated is right.  

     With T.A. it just seemed like between the injuries and then the one step forward followed by a half a step backwards from play to play made it difficult for Doc to get him a lot of playing time.  But T.A. went back to work every time Doc pushed him to the end of the bench and found a way back onto the court.  He was an absolute maniac as well as G.Davis in that 2010 run.  If only they didn't freeze up in game 7 and allow the Lakers bench to be the difference,... ahgg, I'm not going down that well again.

     2009 is debatable, that entire series win against the Bulls was the Ray and Rondo show.  The whole team was gassed against the Magic after that, except Big Baby.  But I think the plan at the beginning of that year was for Tony to fill up a lot of the void left from Posey moving on.  I can't remember if he missed time that season do to injury or if they just failed to make it work, because they gave him 5 mil for two years before that season started with an expectation that he would be a bigger part of it.  

     Your right, this A.B. situation needs to be more concerned with the team going forward as well as the fact he gives their defensive identity what it needs right now.  And after hearing Garnet take exception to what Doc said when he was clearly directing it at Rondo and Pierce (probably Rondo most because this team is beginning to reflect him on a nightly basis at this point) means, to me, that Doc does have to be the directive voice when going with A.B. because this next generation of young Celtics need not to pick up on any of the ornery aspects of the Hall of Famers to be.  It's acceptable with them, they've earned it and for the most part are great examples of how to approach the game, yet Doc has to exude his shrewder abilities as a coach over things like this.  Maybe he did? I honestly think that he and Ray talked and he gave Ray the opportunity to give it up to Bradley.  Overall, it's a good problem to have and A.B. is getting the run.     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: AVERY over RAY as the starter... ANY MORE WHINES ABOUT THE GREAT DOC AS A COACH?

    Rebounds 18 to 18 and Stiemsma has 4 and a tap back. We need more of this from him!
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN. Show COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN's posts

    Re: AVERY over RAY as the starter... ANY MORE WHINES ABOUT THE GREAT DOC AS A COACH?

    Just heard someone say that Doc was planning on starting Pietrus right after the previous Philly game, but he got injured. Would be interesting what happens when peaches is a 100%... AB should still start but do't know if Ray would be playing 30+ minutes though. Ray will get all or most of the SG bench  minutes, but peach will get most  of the 3 and some 4 bench ones
     

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