best 5 celtics as from 1982

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    Re: best 5 celtics as from 1982

    In Response to Re: best 5 celtics as from 1982:
    [QUOTE]Seems.....one thing about this discussion....you agreed that the black/white stars were pretty much evened out by the late '60's.....but you refer to the blacks with their speed, quickness, and agility as the ones taking over the league by the late '70's....this seems like sort of a blanket statement.....I mean....weren't guys like Baylor and Robertson tremendous athletes who came into the league in the late '50's and early '60's....?  .....didn't guys like Elvin Hayes and Lew Alcindor have incredible athletic skills..? ....they were in the league in the late '60's..... one of the greatest who was the epitome of that era was Magic Johnson....he was a great basketball player....but as far as speed and athleticism....he was on par with Larry Bird, not Hayes or Alcindor.....I really think you are short changing some great black athletes who played at least ten years earlier....not to mention Russ and Wilt, who played twenty years earlier...again, just my opinion...but since 1960 or so...I saw them all as well....we aren't talking about the game prior to the shot clock era....again...just my opinion buddy.....
    Posted by Duke4[/QUOTE]
    Duke,

     It is not my attempt to short change any players of the 50's and 60's but rather to point out the vast differences between the skill level of the players of of the early years  versus the players of the most recent generations.
        I  do not have the talent to compare the relative speed of  players from different generations so the only statement that I can make is that Blacks are more than likely superior to  Whites when it comes to speed, quickness and agility. I base this on the domination by Blacks in track in the sprint distances, by their domination in football in the speed positions of running backs, wide receivor and defensive backs.  I've already noted their superiority in the speed positions in basketball. The shooting skill differences between generations speak for themselves.  That leaves the ballhandling issue as a point of contention. There are not any stats for ballhandling skills so you have to review game films to get a handle on this one. But Jerry West believes that it  is the singular biggest  difference between the old timers and the modern players. But until you get to see those 4  60's game that you have, any comments that I make would not have much meaning to you. Equally inportant Duke is the fact that blacks have continued to improve over the generations. There are for example, some sports where the skill level can actually be measured.  Sports such as figure skating and diving have reached degrees of difficulty to the point where in the 60's they were not even on the drawing board. And so it is with basketball. Players of the late 60's were more athletic and skilled then those of the early 50's and  this upwood spiral continues to this day. Sure the super stars that you mentioned were head and shoulders above most of the players  that they competed against. But time marches on and 44 years have gone by since the 1966-67 season was put into the book and much has changed since then.  In any event I believe that you will be quite surprised when you get to view those game films and get to see just how lacking, guys like the Jones boys, Havlicek, Greer, and many others, were when it came to handing the ball. It seems that they were not aware of the fact that they had a non shooting hand.
         Seems 
     
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    Re: best 5 celtics as from 1982

    Seems, I understand all of your points and I wholeheartedly agree that the black athlete has many advantages in competition...but I do not believe that a comparison of speed in track & field relates to basketball....no one is running a straight sprint of 100 yards or meters....when Tiny Archibald starred in the early '70's he was probably the quickest player in the league...I honestly don't think Iverson was any quicker...he wasn't even on the same par as Tiny before the injuries (in my opinion)...another example....Bullet Bob Hayes...fastest man in football at the time and a star....he would beat Jerry Rice in every type of race....but he was nowhere near the pass receiver that Rice was...athletic ability and speed are fine...but you need smarts and talent as well...Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were the two best players of their generation...both would probably be last in the field if they were entered into a track meet or a high jump....and "Big Lew" entered the game in 1969....he started playing and immediately became the best center in the league....anyway....I enjoy the sharing of opinions...mostly agree...just not quite 100%....I guess that's why they are called opinions....
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: best 5 celtics as from 1982

    In Response to Re: best 5 celtics as from 1982:
    [QUOTE]Seems, I understand all of your points and I wholeheartedly agree that the black athlete has many advantages in competition...but I do not believe that a comparison of speed in track & field relates to basketball....no one is running a straight sprint of 100 yards or meters....when Tiny Archibald starred in the early '70's he was probably the quickest player in the league...I honestly don't think Iverson was any quicker...he wasn't even on the same par as Tiny before the injuries (in my opinion)...another example....Bullet Bob Hayes...fastest man in football at the time and a star....he would beat Jerry Rice in every type of race....but he was nowhere near the pass receiver that Rice was...athletic ability and speed are fine...but you need smarts and talent as well...Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were the two best players of their generation...both would probably be last in the field if they were entered into a track meet or a high jump....and "Big Lew" entered the game in 1969....he started playing and immediately became the best center in the league....anyway....I enjoy the sharing of opinions...mostly agree...just not quite 100%....I guess that's why they are called opinions....
    Posted by Duke4[/QUOTE]

       "I  do not have the talent to compare the relative speed of  players from different generations so the only statement that I can make is that Blacks are more than likely superior to  Whites when it comes to speed, quickness and agility. I base this on the domination by Blacks in track in the sprint distances, by their domination in football in the speed positions of running backs, wide receivor and defensive backs.  I've already noted their superiority in the speed positions in basketball"

      Duke
       Please take another look at my above comment in regards to Blacks and the speed factor. My mentioning track was only to illustrate black dominance when it comes to speed. Obviously it would mean absolutely nothing to a Carl Lewis if he tried out for the Celtics and had zero basketball skills. And for the record, put me down as being fully aware of the fact that players can be super stars with out being fast a foot. Of course Bird and McHale are perfect examples of this.  They proved they "belonged" by more than holding their own at a time when the top 150 scorers in the league were 84% black. They did it against the best.

     Seems
     
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    Re: best 5 celtics as from 1982

    Boy are we lucky. We have someone who knows al the answers.  Might have a little trouble with the questions, but so what!

    I too am an Old Goat, and used to listen to Holy Cross and Cousy.  I even saw him play before he got to the NBA.  Strange how Great they played back then.  Like I answer people, who ask what kind of parents I had  --  "They did the best they could with what they had to work with". 

    I got a chance to see the Celtics in 1949, and have loved them ever since.  I was watching the best 80 - 96 basketball players in the NBA.  Yep!  8 teams with 10  --  12 man rosters.  Some GREAT  --  Some not so Great.  Heck, I even have Chuck Cooper's autograph.  Didn't matter if he was black or white  --  he was a Celtic. Not a very good player but he was a Celtic.

    A kid trying to be a basketball player in the 1940  --  1950's was lucky to have a Coach, who coaches football  --  basketball  --  baseball  --  and maybe taught Typing.  He was all alone  --  No Assistants  --  No Trainer  --  No TV  --  No Tapes to study  --  Nothing to go on but personal experience.  That's what a young player got.  His BEST!  No AAU  --  No McDonald's  --  No Pay -Offs.

    When he got into college, he couldn't play varsity until his 2nd year.  Freshman couldn't play.  He faced a Draft, and 2 years in the Army.  If he survived his college time and military service, he might get to the NBA. 

    If the Celtics got him, he had "Red" as Coach,  Trainerm Ballboy, Driver, General Manager.  A One Man Show.

    He didn't have a guaranteed contract  --  Free Agency  --  an Agent.  He had a part-time job in the NBA.  Then he had to figure out how to make a living for the rest of the year to feed his family.  Ask CKouz and Tommy about the Driving School and Insurance Company.  He didn't have a Union, until Cousy and then Tommy started and ran it.  How did he manage to play at all?  Poor Coaching  --  No weight room  --  No team jet.  Impossible.

    So let's get the whole story.  Put the players of the 50's  in this situation, with these benefits and an average $5 million salary.  I think they would perform very well.

    Question is could today's players perform as well in the crude times of the 50's?

    Skill?  Who in the NBA has a Hook Shot as good as Tommy's?  He shot it from the corners.  Wink
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: best 5 celtics as from 1982

    In Response to Re: best 5 celtics as from 1982:
    [QUOTE]Boy are we lucky. We have someone who knows al the answers.  Might have a little trouble with the questions, but so what! I too am an Old Goat, and used to listen to Holy Cross and Cousy.  I even saw him play before he got to the NBA.  Strange how Great they played back then.  Like I answer people, who ask what kind of parents I had  --  "They did the best they could with what they had to work with".  I got a chance to see the Celtics in 1949, and have loved them ever since.  I was watching the best 80 - 96 basketball players in the NBA.  Yep!  8 teams with 10  --  12 man rosters.  Some GREAT  --  Some not so Great.  Heck, I even have Chuck Cooper's autograph.  Didn't matter if he was black or white  --  he was a Celtic. Not a very good player but he was a Celtic. A kid trying to be a basketball player in the 1940  --  1950's was lucky to have a Coach, who coaches football  --  basketball  --  baseball  --  and maybe taught Typing.  He was all alone  --  No Assistants  --  No Trainer  --  No TV  --  No Tapes to study  --  Nothing to go on but personal experience.  That's what a young player got.  His BEST!  No AAU  --  No McDonald's  --  No Pay -Offs. When he got into college, he couldn't play varsity until his 2nd year.  Freshman couldn't play.  He faced a Draft, and 2 years in the Army.  If he survived his college time and military service, he might get to the NBA.  If the Celtics got him, he had "Red" as Coach,  Trainerm Ballboy, Driver, General Manager.  A One Man Show. He didn't have a guaranteed contract  --  Free Agency  --  an Agent.  He had a part-time job in the NBA.  Then he had to figure out how to make a living for the rest of the year to feed his family.  Ask CKouz and Tommy about the Driving School and Insurance Company.  He didn't have a Union, until Cousy and then Tommy started and ran it.  How did he manage to play at all?  Poor Coaching  --  No weight room  --  No team jet.  Impossible. So let's get the whole story.  Put the players of the 50's  in this situation, with these benefits and an average $5 million salary.  I think they would perform very well. Question is could today's players perform as well in the crude times of the 50's? Skill?  Who in the NBA has a Hook Shot as good as Tommy's?  He shot it from the corners. 
    Posted by CaptChris[/QUOTE]

      Capt Chris,
        You did one hellava job of listing all of the drawbacks that existed back in the 1950's when it came to the game of basketball. It sure helps to explain, to some extent, why the level of play in the 50's was so inferior to the modern game. Thanks for the reminder.
    Seems
     
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    Re: best 5 celtics as from 1982

    In Response to Re: best 5 celtics as from 1982:
    [QUOTE]Seems....as a follow up to my last post.....the NBA's list of the greatest 50 Players was voted on in 1996.........almost twenty years after the "late '70's and beyond era".......I found it interesting to note that 30 blacks were named....17 players who played in the earlier era....13 who fit your criterion... The pre-"late '70's"... Alcindor Archibald Baylor Bing Chamberlain Frazier Gervin Greer Hayes Jones Malone Monroe Parish Robertson Thurmond Unseld Wilkins "late '70's and beyond" Barkley Drexler Erving Ewing Johnson Jordan Malone Olajuwon O'Neil Pippen Robinson Thomas Worthy if you were to consider the '77 season to be year 1 of the new era.....then the vote was taken 20 years later in '96.......going backward from '77 as year 1....the list goes back to '58....every single player on this list played in that time frame....of course there have been many more great blacks that have played in the league during the 15 years since the voters made up the list...(along with some great white stars).....but still.....the voters thought that there were more "great black players" before your "new era" began....again pal....just my opinion....but also the opinion of the voters who voted on that list....
    Posted by Duke4[/QUOTE]

      Duke
      Surprise, surprise. I have a different view of the elected "greatest" players. First of all; a list such as this, has nothing to do with comparing generations and simply reflects a players elite status during his playing career. However,since you presented a list I will give you my take on it.  In a updated version, which amends the original 50 player list, an additional 10 players were added on the anniversity of the leagues 60th year in 2006.
      That added 8 blacks to the moderns plus 1 that played in both generations.
      The old generation added 1 that played in the old generation and 1 that played in both.
      Other nominees in 2006-there were 11 nominated-, included 8 modern plus 2 that played in both generations.
      For the old timers they had 1 that played only in the early years and 2 that played in both.

     As for the list that you submitted I made the following changes.
        added Erving to the oldtimers.
      Added Jabbar,Archibald,Gervin, Hayes, M.Malone and Parish to the list of moderns.  Over the years the number of moderns will increase significantly as more  players from the 80's and 90's will be elevated to a higher level.

     In my version I have the mods with 36 players and the oldies with 23.

      Seems
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: best 5 celtics as from 1982

    well, I'm confused....I used 1977 as the "date line".....20 years forward...20 years backward....1958 to 1996....I'm not sure I understand how you are moving the players around...but it doesn't really matter....we both understand where we are coming from....and it's ok to agree to disagree my friend.....
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: best 5 celtics as from 1982

    In Response to Re: best 5 celtics as from 1982:
    [QUOTE]well, I'm confused....I used 1977 as the "date line".....20 years forward...20 years backward....1958 to 1996....I'm not sure I understand how you are moving the players around...but it doesn't really matter....we both understand where we are coming from....and it's ok to agree to disagree my friend.....
    Posted by Duke4[/QUOTE]
    Hey Duke,
     Thanks for a interesting discussion. For a "young pup" your very savy when it comes to the old times. However, I think its time to move on to greener pastures.

     Keep the faith.
      Seems
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: best 5 celtics as from 1982

    Yeah Seems, I agree....it's always good going back and forth with you....I was going to ask your opinion on who would've had the better chance at the title this past year..Dallas or Wilt's '67 Sixers?  .......but maybe I'd be opening another can of worms....best to leave it alone i guess....take care my friend....and keep the great posts coming!!   .....hmmmm "young pup"..? I like it!!
     
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