Big baby complains about role

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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role : He brings energy and toughness, but he is clearly at his best as a change of pace guy coming off the bench.  He, like TA, is not starter material on a very good team.  And if he was, he'd be playing the majority of minutes because Doc would play his best players.       
    Posted by CablesWyndBairn[/QUOTE]

    this is where your arguement falls flat apart.  1) davis would never play more minutes than kg unless kg was on crutches, regardless of whether he was 'better' than him.  kg gets paid 26 million and davis 3 million.  that's all you need to know. 

    2) doc does not have a track record of "playing the best players"- see last year and sheed.  sheed was god-awful, exhibited a great many things that made every old school minded celtic former player or fan vomit in a trash bag in front of the TV, and yet got a set amount of minutes / night no matter how bad he was. 

    at least shelden would have hustled out there and gotten some caroms- he always did when he was put out there.

    and watch for an even more important gaffe in what should be automatic common sense meritocracy rotations for any coach coming up- when perkins comes back.  it won't matter how bad perskins is, and it is a guarantee he will be slower and near worthless on a contending team.  he was hardly watchable the second half of last season after a rather nice first half. 

    unprovoked, perkins declined dramatically from january on last year, and many games we would have been better with davis and williams splitting the 4/5 back up minutes because perkins was nailed to the floor with hands of stone like rarely seen since his rookie or second year. 

    now with good cause to decline, what him go.  and watch doc play him, just as soon as he can, to the detriment of the team game and likely glen davis specifically will see his minutes fall because he is younger than perk and JON and shaq.  doc runs an age-tocracy.  that's long been known. 
     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role :
    Good Luck!

    http://www.nba.com/playerfile/glen_davis/ http://www.nba.com/playerfile/anthony_tolliver/

    Note: This will be based on regular season stats as determined by NBA.com
    Posted by Mployee8[/QUOTE]
    ======

    can either of you guys tell me how a stats comparison on any level b/t davis and tolliver would even begin to matter when tolliver played on one of the flat out worst teams in the league that played no D and focused on offense last year and is on ANOTHER lousy team this year and davis played on a team that went to the finals, with a focused role and is in that same scenario again this year?

    to me, it erases any validity of a statistical comparison.  the rotations that davis plays in are stacked with MUCH better players than whoever tolliver will be on the floor then and doesn't that dictate to a significant degree what sort of stats a player needs to put up to be a succesful in his given role? 

    if on minnesota or GS, davis would be a starting 4, likely play 35 minutes or more and produce a set of stats that would make tolliver look silly.  why get wound up thinking tolliver is 'better' if he can post higher stats in perpetual garbage time when his team is down by 20 every night???!!!

    so one of you two or SOMEONE out there please explain ho you would expect this stats comparison to be valid or reflective of who's really a better player when one plays on a 25 win team and the other is on a 50 or 60 win team backing up a HOF power forward in totally different situations night to night with different surrounding talent levels- dramatically different at that?

    i don't get it.
     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role : Eggsactly .. It is stupid and I think that's what Doc's frustration with BB is all about. They say Doc constantly rolls his eyes when questions about BB come up and it seems that he doesn't give him the respect due to BB's immaturity and at times stupidity in situations like this and last year.
    Posted by Mployee8[/QUOTE]

    well, the problem is that doc has two sets of eyeballs.  one set of eyeballs looks fondly upon a galoot like sheed all last year in the regular season.  that pair of eyes also never bats a lash at ALL of the stupid moves perkins and sheed made against the refs- creating a needless realm of constant friction and tension that resulted in perkins thinking he had to play at half speed through much of the playoffs last year.  doc never said boo.  he never benched perkins for getting a stupid T.  he never batted a lash at sheed's lollygagging.

    then there's the secondary pair of eyes for doc- the pair that is only focused on scowling at glen davis.  at first i thought it was a shtick and we all know how doc hates rookies.  but i'm a pretty good judge of character.  i don't think davis is that bad of an egg and he has given selflessly to this team yet is really the only person on it who has doc's "bad" eyes trained on him. 

    and don't get me wrong and stuff words in my mouth- davis has made some mistakes but he has also done a lot of things that other players won't do or can't do when it comes to helping this team.  sure he could grow up some.  but so could perk.  and so could sheed also bother to show up in shape and shut his mouth with the refs.  but all we hear about is davis.  odd, don't ya think? 

    so doc has very limited credibility with me.  it's a coach's job to coach a player OUT of being a moron like the abject floor time idiot that perkins has been with the referees FOR YEARS NOW.  doc has never been effective for one second in deterring perkins.  never said a word about it other than perk being the best "perk" he can be.

    that's great.  ruin our credibility with the refs and get a bulge in your pants (if you're perk) over screaming at a 140 pound nitwit with a whistle for a necklace.  doc should have LOOKED at it differently and done something, even if it meant benching perkins until he got it.


     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role : this is where your arguement falls flat apart.  1) davis would never play more minutes than kg unless kg was on crutches, regardless of whether he was 'better' than him.  kg gets paid 26 million and davis 3 million.  that's all you need to know. 

    2) doc does not have a track record of "playing the best players"- see last year and sheed.  sheed was god-awful, exhibited a great many things that made every old school minded celtic former player or fan vomit in a trash bag in front of the TV, and yet got a set amount of minutes / night no matter how bad he was.  at least shelden would have hustled out there and gotten some caroms- he always did when he was put out there.

    The statement about PT means the PT among the reserve guys.  Of course he doesn't play over KG, that's not the point.  He's complaining in public that Ainge brought in Wallace last year and J O'Neal and Shaq this year.  If he was better than any of those guys at this point he'd get time over any and all of them. 

    With Wallace, I think they were trying to get him into shape over the course of the season, whether he was awful or not, because they knew they'd need him at full tilt for the playoffs.  They clearly were sacrificing wins last year to get everybody primed for the playoffs, unbeknownst to us.  And Wallace at 35 was almost good enough to get another banner when Perk went down.   

    Doc played Tony Allen over Marquis Daniels because Allen was showing more.  I think they banked on Daniels being a key reserve but he was outplayed and TA was the beneficiary.  So when guys are earning the minutes, they get them.  Like Nate in the playoffs too.   
     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    The statement about PT means the PT among the reserve guys.  Of course he doesn't play over KG, that's not the point.  He's complaining in public that Ainge brought in Wallace last year and J O'Neal and Shaq this year.  If he was better than any of those guys at this point he'd get time over any and all of them.  


    You are wrong here!

    Wallace the bum-Shaq-J O"Neal are not the future of this team.....Davis is.
    You can't lower Davis self Esteem. Comprende?

    These aarp's are just a fill in the hole players. They might not be here in the mid season or at the end of the season.
    His asset is his young age and determination. The old people are just gonna fade and die.
     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role : [The statement about PT means the PT among the reserve guys.  Of course he doesn't play over KG, that's not the point.  He's complaining in public that Ainge brought in Wallace last year and J O'Neal and Shaq this year.  If he was better than any of those guys at this point he'd get time over any and all of them.  With Wallace, I think they were trying to get him into shape over the course of the season, whether he was awful or not, because they knew they'd need him at full tilt for the playoffs.  They clearly were sacrificing wins last year to get everybody primed for the playoffs, unbeknownst to us.   
    Posted by CablesWyndBairn[/QUOTE]

    you're right, he shouldn't be complaining in public.  BUT the entire league knew that wallace was a washed up pot guzzling fatso for two years now and the celts went out and signed him (for THREE YEARS) like he was something.  if i was davis i don't know how that isn't a total affront to you.  it's crazy in fact.

    and at the end of the day we neither got wallace into shape or got enough out of him in the playoffs to get it done.  if wallace was worth the MLE he would have gotten us through game 7, would have reached down and gutted one out like the great.  instead he was 10 and 5 or whatever it was. 

    and with jerlame o'neal and shaq- i hate to let you down, but davis is better than both of those players right now but you can't spread davis over backing up KG and backing up the 5 and have any sort of stability in the rotation because foul trouble will short circuit the project.  they did that in the 2009 playoffs when leon was hurt and foul trouble of davis (nearly inevitable doing what he was doing) resulted in less aggressive sub-optimal play.  he did a great job at it and much better than anyone thought.

    and then we went out and got sheed.

    i don't think davis is ticked about jermaine and shak.  i think he does dread the re-instatement of doc's perk favortism system that's coming up.  and as a fan i do too.
     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    We'll have to see if B.B is better than both O'neil's. I wouldn't bet on it.
     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role:
    [QUOTE]Davis will leave and you will be sorry.
    Posted by CHEisCHE[/QUOTE]

    if doc's masterful system of dysfunction continues with davis, he will end up leaving the team to go play anywhere else.  and we will be sorry.  you could DOUBLE davis' salary to $6m and look around the league and try to find a better 4/5 dirty work, hustle, grit guy.  there aren't many, if any.  and tolliver isn't it.  tolliver is paddy o'bryant version 2.0 plus 4 points a game. 

    you need look no further than tyrus "virus" thomas, picked 20 spots ahead of davis and he stinks- has the b-ball IQ of a drunk amoeba, and he signed a 8M a year contract.  i'd rather have davis all day long over him, and he will end up less or the same money as thomas on his next contract.

    forget about all the stupid fat jokes and look at some game tape of davis, fat or not, playing.  forget about what tommy says- i love tommy, and he's right but go to a neutral source for davis info.  go ahead to the espn and tnt commentators and listen to what they say as davis does his thing- which is largely off the score sheet in the help defense system- he has saved games, changed momentum in games and the C's have built many leads based on davis' hustle and selflessness, much of it off-stat sheet defensive antics.

    anyone believe tolliver would step in on a CONTENDER and be a top 5 help defender in the league, draw charges, force turnovers, hit the floor when needed and guard 4's and 5's?  nope.  but he'll average 11 and 6 for the 28 win t-wolves.  wow. 

    you people who hate davis so much- start naming out the replacements for him who are not calcified like jermaine o'neal.  let's start discussing these better options out there and find out who they are and what they have done AND HOW MUCH THEY ARE CURRENTLY BEING PAID for the coming nubmer of years.    you will find any comparable performers are being paid 8 to 11 mil a year.
     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role : ====== can either of you guys tell me how a stats comparison on any level b/t davis and tolliver would even begin to matter when tolliver played on one of the flat out worst teams in the league that played no D and focused on offense last year and is on ANOTHER lousy team this year and davis played on a team that went to the finals, with a focused role and is in that same scenario again this year? to me, it erases any validity of a statistical comparison.  the rotations that davis plays in are stacked with MUCH better players than whoever tolliver will be on the floor then and doesn't that dictate to a significant degree what sort of stats a player needs to put up to be a succesful in his given role?  if on minnesota or GS, davis would be a starting 4, likely play 35 minutes or more and produce a set of stats that would make tolliver look silly.  why get wound up thinking tolliver is 'better' if he can post higher stats in perpetual garbage time when his team is down by 20 every night???!!! so one of you two or SOMEONE out there please explain ho you would expect this stats comparison to be valid or reflective of who's really a better player when one plays on a 25 win team and the other is on a 50 or 60 win team backing up a HOF power forward in totally different situations night to night with different surrounding talent levels- dramatically different at that? i don't get it.
    Posted by aciemvp[/QUOTE]

    The reason why Tolliver is being talked about is because Mployee8 said we could trade Glen Davis to Portland for Rudy Fernandez then acquire Anthony Tolliver, through free-agency, to replace Big Baby. That is before Tolliver signed with the Wolves. Anyway, Mployee8 is saying that Tolliver is better than Glen Davis, that the Celtics are better off with Tolliver backing up KG. Mployee8 also said there will be no drop off in production if the Celtics had Tolliver instead of Davis. And to justify that he always brings up the stats of both players.

    I totally disagree that replacing Davis with Tolliver will have no effect what so ever in production. I mean Tolliver doesn't even have playoff experience. And I strongly believe that Glen Davis' hustle and the energy that he brings off the bench are things that don't show up on the stat sheet. 
     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role:
    [QUOTE] And I strongly believe that Glen Davis' hustle and the energy that he brings off the bench are things that don't show up on the stat sheet. 
    Posted by P34[/QUOTE]

    he's one of the top help defenders in the league.  he is round and roly poly and closes gaps like an opponent's bad dream.  it makes no sense, but davis does it.  all tolliver has done is put up 11 and 7 in a free for all nellie system.  meaningless. 

    dennis hopson averaged 15 and 5 in constant garbage time and then came to the contending bulls and averaged........ almost nothing.  remembah him?!  different position but same theory- stats on a garbage team compared to stats contributing in TEAM SUCCESs, the fulfillment of a meaningful role in a totally different offensive and DEFENSIVE system are like comparing apples to baby p@@p.  not even apples to oranges.
     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    This is like the most in depth discussion I've seen on this board in a long time. Reminds me of the days when Slippery Sam was around.

    Sam, if your out there, feel free to give your two cents - something tells me you might be itching to say something here.



    Cool
     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role : he's one of the top help defenders in the league.  he is round and roly poly and closes gaps like an opponent's bad dream.  it makes no sense, but davis does it.  all tolliver has done is put up 11 and 7 in a free for all nellie system.  meaningless.  dennis hopson averaged 15 and 5 in constant garbage time and then came to the contending bulls and averaged........ almost nothing.  remembah him?!  different position but same theory- stats on a garbage team compared to stats contributing in TEAM SUCCESs, the fulfillment of a meaningful role in a totally different offensive and DEFENSIVE system are like comparing apples to baby p@@p.  not even apples to oranges.
    Posted by aciemvp[/QUOTE]

    Exactly! That's why I said it was not a good idea to trade Glen Davis. But Mployee8 kept saying that Glen Davis can be replaced by a PF like Anthony Tolliver and the Celtics wouldn't miss a beat. Go figure. 
     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    "he is round and roly poly"

    Did you mean to say "he is round like a rolie polie" - lol

    Cool
     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role:
    [QUOTE]The reason why Tolliver is being talked about is because Mployee8 said we could trade Glen Davis to Portland for Rudy Fernandez then acquire Anthony Tolliver, through free-agency, to replace Big Baby. What a crock of pandy-azz BS that is ... you are forever trying to point fingers at others after making a fool of yourself. That's not the reason Tolliver came up ... I talked about that months ago when the C's were talking with Portland. This is how Tolliver came up! Fierce: "You think Anthony Tolliver will be a better player than Glen Davis this year?" Me: "Yup, ...." Fierce: "I'm glad that you said on record that Anthony Tolliver will be a better player than Glen Davis this season. That way we can look back and see if you're right or wrong. " He threw down the gauntlet ... I just accepted the challenge cause I knew statistically Tolliver should look better than BBD based on historical data, mins played and competition faced. Fierce: "Mployee8 is saying that Tolliver is better than Glen Davis, that the Celtics are better off with Tolliver backing up KG . Mployee8 also said there will be no drop off in production if the Celtics had Tolliver instead of Davis. And to justify that he always brings up the stats of both players. " Post a current link to me saying that ...  ??? At the time of the Rudy trade discussions I did say that if we had to give up BBD to get Rudy it would be a good deal if we could replace BB with another PF after which Fierce challenged me to name a player on the cheap that could backup KG (prior to getting JON) and with slim pickens left I said Tolliver was available and could do a descent job and we'd be better offensively with the addition of Rudy and Tolliver dispite the loss of BBD especially since Rudy would be a building block for the future and Tolliver and BBD were almost the same age, size, position with comparable salaries. Is Tolliver my defacto selection for PFbackup to KG ... no, he was what was available in the FA market at the time of Fierce's objection to using BBD as a trading chip. So don't let him point the finger at me ... challenge him for making such an absurd statement/challenge after all it was his doing even though he'd like you all to think it was I that brought it up. And don't discount the devious nature of his mis-statements in an attempt to turn the tables from his short comings to make me out as the bad guy ... childish!
    Posted by Mployee8[/QUOTE]

    You're a LIAR!

    Re: Can the C's risk losing Baby in a deal for Rudy Fernandez?

    posted at 8/3/2010 12:35 AM EDT
    www.boston.com/community/persona.html?UID=5969efe8ccb239af0914573e7f81edeb&plckUserId=5969efe8ccb239af0914573e7f81edeb">
    Posts: 1156
    First: 7/8/2008
    Last: 10/1/2010
    In Response to Re: Can the C's risk losing Baby in a deal for Rudy Fernandez?:
    In Response to Re: Can the C's risk losing Baby in a deal for Rudy Fernandez? : For the last 2 years Davis has been doing a good job backing up KG. Trading him will only disrupt the continuity of the 2nd unit. The Celtics just need to add a backup Center, not trade the backup PF for a backup C.  Von Wafer can't be traded for 3 months. Right now all the Celtics have is Sheed's contract and a pick.  The Von Wafer signing is also an indication that Fernandez is not going to Boston. 
    Posted by Fierce34


    First off you advocated a S&T for J Howard that involved that very same problem - the C's couldn't get him until 12/15, you forget that?

    What's wrong with adding a backup center and swingman that will grow with the C's for the next three years on the cheap if it's doable. Beats having Daniels even if he does come through this year cause then he wants $5m next year as a FA. 

    Once you've obtained another legit C, whether from Portland with Rudy or Shaq via a three team deal with the Cavs then you have the luxury of playing JON as PF and C and BBD isn't so important. JON wanted to be the starting center and he will be. Then when KG needs a blow or is in foul trouble Shaq comes in at C and JON moves to PF. When Perk comes back he and Shaq man the C and JON backs KG and helps out at C as needed. 

    You could also trade Daniels and or Wafer at that point for another PF ... or pick one up after teams make their final cut with the VM ... Have you figured out yet how many of those VM's a team gets yet? Oh, and what happened to that Tolliver signing? Thought you said he was gone ... didn't he play for Portland last year too? He'd make a nice PF to replace BBD if it were to come to a multi-player/team deal. 

    Check the numbers:

    A) Shaq (6.3m), Rudy (1.2m) & Tolliver (1.5m) to C's for Sheed (6.3m), BBD (3m) #1 Pick

    B) Sheed (6.3m), Bayless (2.3m) & Przybilla (7.4m) to Cavs for Shaq (6.3m) & Mo Williams (9.3m)

    C) Mo Will (9.3m), BBD (3m) & #1 pick to Portland for Przy (7.4m), Tolliver (1.5), Bayless (2.3m) & Rudy (1.2m)
     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    Did that refresh your memory, Mployee8?
     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role:
    [QUOTE]"he is round and roly poly" Did you mean to say "he is round like a rolie polie" - lol
    Posted by EliasB[/QUOTE]

    just trying some comic relief.  people crack on the poor bastid for being a pantload at the same time he is one of the nimblest, quickest and strongest big guys in the league, to the great benefit of the celtics.
     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    I’m OK, you’re OK
    After a two-day exchange in media reports, Rivers and Davis made a point of showing that everything has been resolved. As he was leaving Rodgers Recreation Center, Rivers turned toward the big forward. Davis, grinning, said, “What?’’ holding his arms up. Arms likewise outstretched, Rivers asked, “Everything all right?’’ Davis nodded and answered, “I’m good.’’ Rivers then departed.

     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role : It's exactly what I said you'd post ... an old comment regarding a possible trade for Rudy involving BBD. Like I said above ....   Post a recent link that isn't 2-3  months old that is relevent!!!!
    Posted by Mployee8[/QUOTE]

    Acie asked the question why the comparison to Tolliver. That's why I said this all started when you said that even if the Celtics swap Davis for Tolliver the Celtics wouldn't miss a beat. Back then you said that Davis can easily be replaced because his stats are not that hard to replace. That's why posting what you said a few months back is RELEVANT.
     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    Trade bait by Allstar break...
     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    In Response to Re: Big baby complains about role:
    [QUOTE]The statement about PT means the PT among the reserve guys.  Of course he doesn't play over KG, that's not the point.  He's complaining in public that Ainge brought in Wallace last year and J O'Neal and Shaq this year.  If he was better than any of those guys at this point he'd get time over any and all of them.   You are wrong here! Wallace the bum-Shaq-J O"Neal are not the future of this team.....Davis is. You can't lower Davis self Esteem. Comprende? These aarp's are just a fill in the hole players. They might not be here in the mid season or at the end of the season. His asset is his young age and determination. The old people are just gonna fade and die.
    Posted by CHEisCHE[/QUOTE]

    I don't comprende. 
     
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    Re: Big baby complains about role

    Glen had done a good job for us over the years, he sais his roll changes evey year and it has, he said his roll is not defined yet this year, and it is not.  The media and some fans need a head check.  Davis might be the key to a trade for a player to back up Paul, because he has value.  Get off his back.

     
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