Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

    Good stuff......today's NBA is so much slower than it was especially when compared to the Celtics' fast breaking style.....those DVD's that you suggested are pretty entertaining.....the teams just flew up and down the court with the players never seeming to tire out....today they pound the ball up the floor and it seems like so many of the shots are taken in the last 5-10 seconds....

    that's a huge reason why the rebounding numbers went down....while the shooting percentages have gone up (especially when considering all the dunking going on) there just aren't nearly as many shots going up per game....there were a lot more rebounds to be had back in the day...hence the fact that a Russell or Chamberlain routinely averaged 25 per game....it was not out of the ordinary for them to get to the mid 30's often....today it's huge when someone like Kevin Love or Al Horford (the other night) gets into the 20's....

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

    Duke

      Happy to see that you were aware of the reason for the extreamly high rebound averages of the early years. Mucho shots times low shooting %= tons of misses= high rebound averages. The same situation exist when it comes to comparing points per game between generations. I have made charts to equate the  comparitive value of a 20 point average for all the different years. For example- a 16.7 pts per game average in 2010-11 is the same as a 20 pt ave in 1961. By the way Duke, I want you you to known that the Celts of the 50's 60's are my favorites and Russell is my favorite player. It has never been my intent to bash the old guys. I just want to level the playing field so that the younger crowd can get a better picture of the game and the players that they never saw. If your interested in learning how to compare player scoring and rebounding averaves between generations,let me know. I'll be back shortly with a look at Russell and his competition.

    Seems 

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

    The tiny URL for your query is:

    http://bkref.com/tiny/rIK54

    Duke- 1st of 4 charts

    seems

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

    The tiny URL for your query is:

    http://bkref.com/tiny/b5xYE

    Duke 2nd of 4 charts

    Seems

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_minute&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1986&year_max=1986&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=63&height_max=91&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=1640&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=pts_per_mp&order_by_asc=&offset=0

     

    Duke-3rd chart

    Seems

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

    Well Seems, it looks like you and I go right to the same site as a reference guide (great minds think alike...!)  .....I'll review your pages in depth when I can spend a little bit more time on them....thanks for sharing!

    Going back to our discussion on rebounding averages during the earlier years (late '50's through the early '70's) it's interesting to note that only a handfull of players actually averaged  20 per game....the list is as follows:

    Chamberlain (12)

    Russell (10)

    Thurmond (2)

    Lucas (2)

    Pettit (1)

    That's three centers and two power forwards over a 13 year period....they are the first and last to accomplish the feat...

    Honorable Mention goes to four others (with their career season high averages)

    Elgin Baylor (19.8) remarkable for a 6-5 forward

    Walt Bellamy (19.0)

    Maurice Stokes (18.6)

    Elvin Hayes (18.1)

    I may have missed one or two that should make the Honorable Mention list....but for only five guys to make the 20 RPG list is incredible...and Russ & Wilt dominated, further supporting your belief that they were in a stratosphere all their own...Wilt at 7-1 1/16th (as he was listed) is a no brainer....Russ at 6-9 or 6-10 really shows what an athlete he was...

     

     

     

     

     

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_minute&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=63&height_max=90&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=1597&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=pts_per_mp

     

    Duke--Chart4

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

    In response to Duke4's comment:

    Well Seems, it looks like you and I go right to the same site as a reference guide (great minds think alike...!)  .....I'll review your pages in depth when I can spend a little bit more time on them....thanks for sharing!

    Going back to our discussion on rebounding averages during the earlier years (late '50's through the early '70's) it's interesting to note that only a handfull of players actually averaged  20 per game....the list is as follows:

    Chamberlain (12)

    Russell (10)

    Thurmond (2)

    Lucas (2)

    Pettit (1)

    That's three centers and two power forwards over a 13 year period....they are the first and last to accomplish the feat...

    Honorable Mention goes to four others (with their career season high averages)

    Elgin Baylor (19.8) remarkable for a 6-5 forward

    Walt Bellamy (19.0)

    Maurice Stokes (18.6)

    Elvin Hayes (18.1)

    I may have missed one or two that should make the Honorable Mention list....but for only five guys to make the 20 RPG list is incredible...and Russ & Wilt dominated, further supporting your belief that they were in a stratosphere all their own...Wilt at 7-1 1/16th (as he was listed) is a no brainer....Russ at 6-9 or 6-10 really shows what an athlete he was...

    I have a short list of athletes and 1 horse, that I think Lapped the field in their day. Russ, Wilt,Ruth,Gretski, Edwin Moses, Connelly(Olympic Field Events discus) and Secretariat.

    I have to offer some comments on those charts before they will make a lotta sense to you. I'll do that tomorrow morning. Time to go to nba league pass for some hoops. 

      Seems

     

     

     

     




     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

    Seems.....you might have forgotten one huge name in your short list....I am currently reading his autobiography...the legendary SOB that was Ty Cobb....

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

    In response to Duke4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Seems.....you might have forgotten one huge name in your short list....I am currently reading his autobiography...the legendary SOB that was Ty Cobb....

    I always try to judge a players career on his record against his peers. On that basis Cobb certainly belongs. Its ironic that he and his number 1 hitting rival Rogers Hornsby were both reportedly despised by their teammates although some question the validity of much of the bad press that he got over the years.

      Now to those 4 charts. Working on the believe that the best players play the most minutes I have listed a average of 6 players per team with the most minutes played. In the case of the 1st chart, Russell's 1st full year in the NBA,there were 8 teams,(times 6 players) equals 48 players on the list.

    Chart analysis:     1957-58

    1.  3 players taller than Russ.

    2.  48 players- 42 white (88%),,, Under 6'8"= 37 players-- white=34(92%)

     

                     1968-69  Russell's last year.  14 teams

    1.  8 players taller than Russ.

    2.  84 players- 36 white (42.9%),,,Under 6'8"= 60 players--White=27(45%)

     

                     1985-86        23 teams

    1.  36 players taller than Russ.  

    2.  138 players-- white 27 (19.6%),,,Under 6'8"=75 players--White=9(12%)

     

                       2010-11          30 teams

    1.  40 players tallerthan Russ.

    2.  180 players--white Americans 11 (6%),,, under 6'8'=96 players--white americans 4(4.2%)

     

    Notes: In the early years 6'8" players often times played center.  As a result I chose players under 6'8" as being the speedy,quick, agile players.

    Because the league now has many international players I referenced only white americans so that there would be a valid comparison with the early years when the international player was not playing in the NBA

    Seems

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

    Good analysis Seems!  ....interesting to see the changes in the league as the decades went by....

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

    Don't post in this forum very often (been hangin' in the Pats room) so please bear with me.

    I grew up with Bill Russell as my idol.  Watched him play every chance I got but only once in person in the old Garden I'm afraid.  What is often overlooked about Russ are two things:

    1) In his prime he may have been the quickest-reacting player in the game.  Many who are aware of that have attributed it to his great anticipation and knowledge of the players he was up against.  He wasn't just a leaper; he was an incredibly quick leaper.  Unbelievable timing.

    2) Russ, when he needed/wanted to, was an incredible offensive force.  In the 1962 finals (I think), game 7 against the Lakers, he pulled down 40 rebounds and scored 30 points.  On another occasion, Russ scored I believe 40 points in one of the Eastern Conference final games against the Knicks.  Can't seem to locate which one.

    Jordan was great, no question.  LeBron is amazingly gifted, absolutely.  But to my way of thinking (not objective, of course) no one has been in Russell's class.  The greatest ever.

    Really couldn't ignore posting on a Bill Russell thread.  Thanks guys.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

    Duke

     The changes in my lifetime in the world of sports have been unbelieveable. Genetics, the emergence of the black athlelete, and untold advances in coaching, sports medicine, plus near by YMCA's and BOYS CLUB's for year around play . I sure wish that I had those tools available when I was growing up. Add the fact that since the early 70's the best of the kids travel the country playing AAU BALL. I live across the street from a baseball field and all summer long the kids are out there playing ball. Basketball that is. Youngsters,teenagers, all with their own basketballs dribbling between their legs, behind their backs as they head to the courts. No wonder the ball handling skills for this generation are off the chart. But its not just basketball.The NFL is about 85% black at the speed position. And how about track. 400 meters on down,Strickly black. The OLYMPICS offer a great arena to view the advances in skills. The numbers are there to make the generational comparisons. Some events like Diving, figure skating and gymnastics allow one to compare the degree of difficulty for each event. Once again the modern routines are much more demanding. Time marches on Duke.We have been lucky to witness the changes.

    Seems

      

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

    In response to ATJ's comment:

    Don't post in this forum very often (been hangin' in the Pats room) so please bear with me.

    I grew up with Bill Russell as my idol.  Watched him play every chance I got but only once in person in the old Garden I'm afraid.  What is often overlooked about Russ are two things:

    1) In his prime he may have been the quickest-reacting player in the game.  Many who are aware of that have attributed it to his great anticipation and knowledge of the players he was up against.  He wasn't just a leaper; he was an incredibly quick leaper.  Unbelievable timing.

    2) Russ, when he needed/wanted to, was an incredible offensive force.  In the 1962 finals (I think), game 7 against the Lakers, he pulled down 40 rebounds and scored 30 points.  On another occasion, Russ scored I believe 40 points in one of the Eastern Conference final games against the Knicks.  Can't seem to locate which one.

    Jordan was great, no question.  LeBron is amazingly gifted, absolutely.  But to my way of thinking (not objective, of course) no one has been in Russell's class.  The greatest ever.

    Really couldn't ignore posting on a Bill Russell thread.  Thanks guys.

    ATJ

    No need to be objective. Very few sports or political discussions ever are. I don,t know if he was the quickest reacting player in his prime. But I would bet the farm that he was the QUICKEST REACTING BIG MAN .

    Seems




     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

    In response to ATJ's comment:

    Don't post in this forum very often (been hangin' in the Pats room) so please bear with me.

    I grew up with Bill Russell as my idol.  Watched him play every chance I got but only once in person in the old Garden I'm afraid.  What is often overlooked about Russ are two things:

    1) In his prime he may have been the quickest-reacting player in the game.  Many who are aware of that have attributed it to his great anticipation and knowledge of the players he was up against.  He wasn't just a leaper; he was an incredibly quick leaper.  Unbelievable timing.

    2) Russ, when he needed/wanted to, was an incredible offensive force.  In the 1962 finals (I think), game 7 against the Lakers, he pulled down 40 rebounds and scored 30 points.  On another occasion, Russ scored I believe 40 points in one of the Eastern Conference final games against the Knicks.  Can't seem to locate which one.

    Jordan was great, no question.  LeBron is amazingly gifted, absolutely.  But to my way of thinking (not objective, of course) no one has been in Russell's class.  The greatest ever.

    Really couldn't ignore posting on a Bill Russell thread.  Thanks guys.


    ATL

    http://home.comcast.net/~michael_hamel/boxtop/Celtics1962.htm#Game

    Great memory. Heres the box score. Print it and save for the future. I'll see if I can find the otherbox score.

    Seems

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from jrleftfoot. Show jrleftfoot's posts

    Re: Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

    In response to SeemsToMe's comment:

    Contact was not a part of basketball back in the 1950-60 years. They could have played in gowns and tuxedos back then.

    Seems

    You couldn`t be more wrong.Were you even alive then?


     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

    In response to jrleftfoot's comment:

    In response to SeemsToMe's comment:

     

    Contact was not a part of basketball back in the 1950-60 years. They could have played in gowns and tuxedos back then.

    Seems

     

    You couldn`t be more wrong.Were you even alive then?


     




    Yes

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from passfirst. Show passfirst's posts

    Re: Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

    In response to Duke4's comment:

    Painter, you make some great points.....actually the NBA was a very "rough & tumble" league back then....Wilt almost left after his first year because he was basically getting beat up every night...two reasons for that....he was a rookie and he was being tested by the "goons" every night....and he was such a nice kid that nobody expected him to fight back in the beginning....once he started filling out he became the strongest and most feared guy in the game...that Russ could physically hold his own against an opponent that was at least 3 inches taller and 50 lbs heavier is a testiment to Big Bill's skills and competitive nature..! ....both of those guys would be great's in today's game...at least in my opinion...



    They would absolutely dominate the league.  Wilt on his own would destroy the Heat's defense in the paint.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Bill Russell jumps over a guy.

    In response to SeemsToMe's comment:

    In response to ATJ's comment:

     

    Don't post in this forum very often (been hangin' in the Pats room) so please bear with me.

    I grew up with Bill Russell as my idol.  Watched him play every chance I got but only once in person in the old Garden I'm afraid.  What is often overlooked about Russ are two things:

    1) In his prime he may have been the quickest-reacting player in the game.  Many who are aware of that have attributed it to his great anticipation and knowledge of the players he was up against.  He wasn't just a leaper; he was an incredibly quick leaper.  Unbelievable timing.

    2) Russ, when he needed/wanted to, was an incredible offensive force.  In the 1962 finals (I think), game 7 against the Lakers, he pulled down 40 rebounds and scored 30 points.  On another occasion, Russ scored I believe 40 points in one of the Eastern Conference final games against the Knicks.  Can't seem to locate which one.

    Jordan was great, no question.  LeBron is amazingly gifted, absolutely.  But to my way of thinking (not objective, of course) no one has been in Russell's class.  The greatest ever.

    Really couldn't ignore posting on a Bill Russell thread.  Thanks guys.

     


    ATL

     

    http://home.comcast.net/~michael_hamel/boxtop/Celtics1962.htm#Game

    Great memory. Heres the box score. Print it and save for the future. I'll see if I can find the otherbox score.

    Seems




    Thanks for posting that, Seems.  That's the Russ I remember to be sure.

     
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