Blaming the reserves

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from edcap99. Show edcap99's posts

    Blaming the reserves

    Lately, the Celtic reserves have been blamed by fans, media and even Doc Rivers for poor play resulting in blown leads. Is it fair to lay the blame exclusively on them? I think not. Krystic and Green, for example, were starters at Oklahoma City. Now, they come off the bench, playing some minutes here and there, and thus, are unable to get into a good playing rhythm. Ray Allen, himself, complained of an inability to get into rhythm when he doesn't get enough touches during the earlier parts of the game. And he's already logging 30 or so minutes a game. How reasonable is it then to expect Krystic and Green to perform well consistently? In the case of Glen Davis, I cannot see the logic in Doc's playing him at the center position and allowing taller players like Stoudemire to score and rebound over him at will. Why not utilize Krystic or Murphy instead and let Davis play his normal position at power forward? Pavlovic, Green and even Murphy can also be used to harrass and commit hard fouls on opposing scorers like Carmelo Anthony. In this way, Paul Pierce and Ray allen can conserve energy and their fouls.

    The timing and manner of Doc River's substitutions are also to blame. Doc has the habit of making two or three man substitutions at a time with his reserves. This often results in the loss of momentum and blown leads. He should ease the reserves gradually into the game while relieving the starters. Doc doesn't have the kind of confidence in his reserves that Thibodeau or Popovich have in theirs. The Celtics bench is filled with talented veterans who are hungry for an NBA title. Doc just needs to trust in them more and make rational and timely substitutions. What's the sense in using a limited rotation when you have so much talent available to you? Isn't this supposed to be a team effort, anyway?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneNation. Show OneNation's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    I agree that the bench plays an important role and has not played as well as they can in the first two games. Maybe the staff is still searching out the best combo's to be in at the same time. The teams real problem is rebounding and second chance points. This includes starters as well as reserves. I personaly think Doc's play calling is a big part of the C's being up 2 and not down 2. It's hard to argue with success. I agree with you that it's hard to get in a groove unless you are getting steady minutes. Again, I refuse to complain because the C's are UP 2 games. This is not the type of team that is going to get 20 point wins. All the fans will end up with short nails watching these games. But, I'll take the wins.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Karllost. Show Karllost's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    This stuff about being in the game long enough to find a groove is baloney imo.

    It may have a little merit when it comes to a players shot... maybe, but thats about it. Heck, how many bench players around the NBA can come in and put points on the board?? PLenty... guys like J Crawford or Blair... they dont need to find their groove..

    That aside, what groove is someone looking for to box out.. to set a screen, to rebound, make a pass..??? These guys play ball almost everyday of their lives since they were kids... they are trained by the best, they make a fortune and youre gonna tell me they need time to find their groove so they can box out?

    I dont buy into that stuff at all... Kevin McHale didnt need 20 minutes to find his groove...for that matter, it would take the starters the same amount of time to find their groove... how do any of them perform until the second half?? lol

    Its a different dynamic at work coming off the bench vs starting... but its not so difficult for them as it would be for people like us they play occassionally or even on a high school team... none of us get the time to dedicate our lives around playing the game with practice, games and chats everyday, every week...
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneNation. Show OneNation's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    In Response to Re: Blaming the reserves:
    This stuff about being in the game long enough to find a groove is baloney imo. It may have a little merit when it comes to a players shot... maybe, but thats about it. Heck, how many bench players around the NBA can come in and put points on the board?? PLenty... guys like J Crawford or Blair... they dont need to find their groove.. That aside, what groove is someone looking for to box out.. to set a screen, to rebound, make a pass..??? These guys play ball almost everyday of their lives since they were kids... they are trained by the best, they make a fortune and youre gonna tell me they need time to find their groove so they can box out? I dont buy into that stuff at all... Kevin McHale didnt need 20 minutes to find his groove...for that matter, it would take the starters the same amount of time to find their groove... how do any of them perform until the second half?? lol Its a different dynamic at work coming off the bench vs starting... but its not so difficult for them as it would be for people like us they play occassionally or even on a high school team... none of us get the time to dedicate our lives around playing the game with practice, games and chats everyday, every week...
    Posted by Karllost

    Good points Karl...There are quite a few players that come in and light it up right away. I still think the bench will end up winning one against N.Y.
     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneNation. Show OneNation's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    All good points. I was wrong about the groove comment.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    I kind of agree with Edcap99. DOc could sub 1-2 at a time but I'm not sure it would really matter. I think part of the problem is do they practice with the same sub pattern? Example when they are scrimmaging in practice does he take RA or PP and put them on the 2nd unit like in games or is it mostly always the starters vs the 2nd unit?

    So when you leave PP or RA in the game the reserves start to defer to them too much and it causes the 2nd unit to look lost. I would use Pav a little more in the playoffs. He has playoff exp from his days with the Cavs. Surely he could hit a few shots here and there. If the Knicks can go deep in their bench Doc should be able to as well.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from docc. Show docc's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

       Realistically, this is an average bench.   '08 had PJB, Powe, House, Posey, Cassell.   If Shaq was playing, then only PJB w/ JON, and Cassell w/ West have been replaced.   The inside scoring/boarding of Powe hasn't been replaced and the shooting of Posey/House haven't been replaced.  
       Green isn't a bad shooter, but his consistency isn't there.   Also, JG's is so soft.   ? maybe same body build as Posey but, JP was a tough guy.   Didn't get pushed around.   Did some pushing.   Have you noticed JG's defensive stance??  I don't know if he's getting ready to wrestle someone or what.   His hands are in a ball and in front of him (instead of outstretched arms).   This may be why his feet seem too close and poor lateral movement (I'm not sure if it's a stance of fear...ironically, a 'defensive' posture).
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    I wouldn't confuse planning and execution.  I have no problem with the substitution pattern.  In the first game against the knicks, Doc put Green in and Krstic and took out Ray and KG.  Then, he took out JON and put in Krstic a few minutes later.  Then even later, he inserted West and BBD.  That was just fine as they came 1, 2, or 3 at a time.  The issue was that Green and Krstic didn't deliver.   There's nothing wrong with the plan.  Its that the bench guys (BBD included) simply haven't stepped up yet.   I'm not saying they CAN'T step up, I'm saying they haven't and that's on them.....not on the coach, not on their minutes, not on anyone except them.   They gotta be professional and play their roles and they haven't.

    BBD stopped shooting but hasn't had a stellar rebounding and defensive performance.  Green is just fouling and being out of position.  Krstic is lost.  

    Its like your kid brings home an F.  You can say he was tired.  You can say the teacher didn't explain things well.  You can say he was worried about his girlfriend or his baseball game........or you can tell your kid he's not performing and you don't accept all these excuses so get in the books and get a better grade!!!!

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from cole-ely. Show cole-ely's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    You know, the bench isn't getting very many shots either.  About the only chance they have to score is if a starter makes a play and dishes or if they get an offensive rebound.

    You've got to remember that we've got 4 scorers in our starting lineup that need touches.  The playoff rotation doesnt' feature 5 bench guys.  When paul is with the bench he gets iso's.  When ray is in the focus is on screening for him.  Even if the bench hit half their shots I doubt they'd score over 20.

    I just wish the bench would make more hustle plays and play better d.  I think that in the last game green got punked by the refs when he came in.  For all the complaining about officiating in this series, check out the box score for ft's.  I think the second game was like 27 to 15 in favor of the AWAY team.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from KGLove. Show KGLove's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    When your number gets called you gotta be ready whether its 1 minute or 10 minutes.  I don't care who it is but sum1 needs to step up for a bench to get 8 or 12 points is crazy.  If the 4 who are playing aren't doing anything then y not use the others... Wafer Bradley Sasha Murphy.... again then can't do much worse.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    In Response to Blaming the reserves:
    Lately, the Celtic reserves have been blamed by fans, media and even Doc Rivers for poor play resulting in blown leads. Is it fair to lay the blame exclusively on them? I think not. Krystic and Green, for example, were starters at Oklahoma City. Now, they come off the bench, playing some minutes here and there, and thus, are unable to get into a good playing rhythm. Ray Allen, himself, complained of an inability to get into rhythm when he doesn't get enough touches during the earlier parts of the game. And he's already logging 30 or so minutes a game. How reasonable is it then to expect Krystic and Green to perform well consistently? In the case of Glen Davis, I cannot see the logic in Doc's playing him at the center position and allowing taller players like Stoudemire to score and rebound over him at will. Why not utilize Krystic or Murphy instead and let Davis play his normal position at power forward? Pavlovic, Green and even Murphy can also be used to harrass and commit hard fouls on opposing scorers like Carmelo Anthony. In this way, Paul Pierce and Ray allen can conserve energy and their fouls. The timing and manner of Doc River's substitutions are also to blame. Doc has the habit of making two or three man substitutions at a time with his reserves. This often results in the loss of momentum and blown leads. He should ease the reserves gradually into the game while relieving the starters. Doc doesn't have the kind of confidence in his reserves that Thibodeau or Popovich have in theirs. The Celtics bench is filled with talented veterans who are hungry for an NBA title. Doc just needs to trust in them more and make rational and timely substitutions. What's the sense in using a limited rotation when you have so much talent available to you? Isn't this supposed to be a team effort, anyway?
    Posted by edcap99


    cant argue that....I couldnt imagine playing street ball and subbing on for someone...I never did it, and I would probably not do much in limited time or I may try to do too much knowing my time is short...these are very valid points...and the sad part if, of all teams, the knicks are the team that you could get away with playing guys like Wafer, Kristic or Murphy,...the knicks are playing someones unwanted bench players for starters...that dude Landry is so burnt out, he shouldnt even be suiting up, yet we cant take advantage...but I think we see a big difference on the road....The C's are gonna be amped to shutdown Madison Square
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jump-ball-overtime. Show Jump-ball-overtime's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    The bench does blow leads, and their job is to not blow leads.

    While it can be difficult for bench players to get a shooting rhythm after sitting on the bench, both Krystic and Green could certainly be aggressive, and take the ball to the rim. They do not. In addition, while offense comes and goes, defense can be brought every night, because it is effort based. If they scored no points but played aggressive defense, they would be forgiven. They do not.

    They were starters in Oklahoma, so they should have an easier time against subs from other teams. They do not.

    One of the few things that you truly have control over in your life, is attutude. Clearly, thier's needs an adjustment.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ChiefEddie1028. Show ChiefEddie1028's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    In Response to Blaming the reserves:
    Lately, the Celtic reserves have been blamed by fans, media and even Doc Rivers for poor play resulting in blown leads. Is it fair to lay the blame exclusively on them? I think not. Krystic and Green, for example, were starters at Oklahoma City. Now, they come off the bench, playing some minutes here and there, and thus, are unable to get into a good playing rhythm. Ray Allen, himself, complained of an inability to get into rhythm when he doesn't get enough touches during the earlier parts of the game. And he's already logging 30 or so minutes a game. How reasonable is it then to expect Krystic and Green to perform well consistently? In the case of Glen Davis, I cannot see the logic in Doc's playing him at the center position and allowing taller players like Stoudemire to score and rebound over him at will. Why not utilize Krystic or Murphy instead and let Davis play his normal position at power forward? Pavlovic, Green and even Murphy can also be used to harrass and commit hard fouls on opposing scorers like Carmelo Anthony. In this way, Paul Pierce and Ray allen can conserve energy and their fouls. The timing and manner of Doc River's substitutions are also to blame. Doc has the habit of making two or three man substitutions at a time with his reserves. This often results in the loss of momentum and blown leads. He should ease the reserves gradually into the game while relieving the starters. Doc doesn't have the kind of confidence in his reserves that Thibodeau or Popovich have in theirs. The Celtics bench is filled with talented veterans who are hungry for an NBA title. Doc just needs to trust in them more and make rational and timely substitutions. What's the sense in using a limited rotation when you have so much talent available to you? Isn't this supposed to be a team effort, anyway?
    Posted by edcap99


    Excellent post. You said it all, I couldn't add more.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from MinnesotaCelticsFan. Show MinnesotaCelticsFan's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    Wow, those poor reserves...

    Maybe some cookies and milk would help.

    I bet if they got paid by the stop, the rebound, the screen or the block, things would be different.

    Jump, Im with you.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mchampion. Show Mchampion's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    In Response to Re: Blaming the reserves:
    The bench does blow leads, and their job is to not blow leads. While it can be difficult for bench players to get a shooting rhythm after sitting on the bench, both Krystic and Green could certainly be aggressive, and take the ball to the rim. They do not. In addition, while offense comes and goes, defense can be brought every night, because it is effort based. If they scored no points but played aggressive defense, they would be forgiven. They do not. They were starters in Oklahoma, so they should have an easier time against subs from other teams. They do not. One of the few things that you truly have control over in your life, is attutude. Clearly, thier's needs an adjustment.Posted by Jump-ball-overtime



    you hit the nail on the head .....its an attitude and it needs to be adjusted.  I hope Doc adressed this in practice.  I would have ran these guys to death just to make a point....it all about effort when they get in there.  good post jump-ball


     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rajon-Hondo. Show Rajon-Hondo's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    Well said. I'm also getting a sense of urgency bordering on tenseness (if thats a word) in the Big 3 that wasn't there earlier this year. I think they feel like this is maybe the last year they can win it all and even though they've stayed healthy the support they felt they had in Shaq & JO & Perk. We had to go in figuring that at least 1 of those guys would be ready for the playoffs, not to mention Marquis. When Perk wanted too much $$$ DA, I think did a great job getting us 2 quality players for 1 that wasn't going resign anyway,for this year and a quality player and a 1st pick for the future which is his job. So I'm thinking the exrra burden is wearing on the big 4 as well. I feel it adds to a reluctance to include newer players into the loop in certain situations. I think we pulling it together and every round we will look a little better. We are up 2-0 and every win counts regardless so I still feel we are sweeping them even if every game is by one.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Tacowens. Show Tacowens's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    How could we inspire our bench to play like.......the Knicks bench??  Those guys are playing like it's life or death!
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from maryngary. Show maryngary's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    It is clear that West is not a 100%  player and if you watched the second game it is clear that Davis had a very good game in that he provided the toughness that is needed and a big basket while plalying out of positon.  Of course if you do not understand the game then they look terrible .
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    In Response to Re: Blaming the reserves:
    In Response to Re: Blaming the reserves : you hit the nail on the head .....its an attitude and it needs to be adjusted.  I hope Doc adressed this in practice.  I would have ran these guys to death just to make a point....it all about effort when they get in there.  good post jump-ball
    Posted by Mchampion



    Exactly!!!! Let's stop blaming everyone from Doc to Danny to the refs picking on poor Jeff Green and start blaming he bench players themselves.  They stink and they need to get off their butts and play with fire.  If they want to help the starters, play with fire and determination and hustle - win every lose ball, rebound, play great d and make hard fouls and show you want it more than the other guys.   Doc doesn't hustle, players hustle.  Danny gave them the opportunity, Doc puts them in the game......they gotta perform or sit on the darn bench.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from aciemvp. Show aciemvp's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    In Response to Re: Blaming the reserves:
    You know, the bench isn't getting very many shots either.  About the only chance they have to score is if a starter makes a play and dishes or if they get an offensive rebound.
    Posted by cole-ely


    i thought this was why we went out and bought delonte?  i just don't understand how there can be so few shots for the bench.  other than the facdt that there's probably been 1 or 2 starters in with them the whole time, which doesn't really do much for making an opportunity for the bench to do much.

    the rebounding problem with the bench is bad.  davis rebounded decently in game 2, still not great.  and then nobody else did from the bench unit.  at 6-9, green has to roll up the sleeves and get dirty in the paint at both ends already. and if the bench is going to stink at rebounding then they need to relentlessly gang rebound the ball to make up for it.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from NickFaldo. Show NickFaldo's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    A few of us over at Dslack's ESPN Celtics Board appreciated edcap99's post. I just wrote the following.

    dslack wrote:
    "Yeah, it's a +/- thing. The more that the starters play with bench players, the less time they have available to play all starters together. Maybe this doesn't matter."

    It does matter, but not so much during the regular season. The starters have nothing to prove. As long as they have a serviceable center, they've shown they can compete with anyone.

    Doc was right to give up on Avery Bradley. He's either one of the worst draft picks in NBA history or will be a late bloomer. Von Wafer, on the other hand, has been in the league long enough to merit consideration to be part of the rotation. He finally got the chance but then got injured. When he came back, Doc let him collect dust on the bench while playing Ray too many minutes.

    I concede Doc gave Arroyo every opportunity to become a true part of the team. Unfortunately we found out why he got waived. Delonte when healthy could definitely gobble up major minutes as both Ray's and Rajon's primary backup. But he seems hurt. That's where maybe Doc should tweak his idea of limiting the number of players in the rotation by making Wafer Ray's backup and West for Rondo.

    It's too late to start mixing it up with Green. He should be primarily Paul's backup and only Paul's backup. Maybe with a fresh start in training camp, Jeff Green's versatility can be better tapped.

    Big Baby should be KG's backup. For when he is too short, that's where Doc could have developed a tweaking system by playing Murphy or Krstic instead of Baby or even perhaps Jeff Green.

    If Doc's preserving Krstic for later rounds, then fine, all is forgiven. If he's benching him because he doesn't like his performance, that's ridiculous.

    Doc's a player's coach for those he trusts. It is very difficult for anyone outside that circle of trust to ever feel as a real part of the team. It's why Tony left. I do like the plays Doc calls out of timeouts. He's a basketball lifer and is that kid who used to draw out the plays on his hand when we played football in the snow. Throwing it in to KG for an old-school back the opponent in and then shoot a five footer was pure brilliance.

    I definitely agree with the Globe poster who says don't make wholesale substutions. Trickle the subs in. Work off of the chemistry already developed. That's what I mean by saying have primary subs for each starter. Sure, they are all individuals and have different pluses and minuses. However, in the long run you end up with fresher players and more fluidity. Like Wafer makes more sense than West right now to sub for Ray. No one but West should sub for Rondo. That kind of thinking. Plug in Green for Pierce. It's how Danny set up this team, to have solid backups for each position. But Doc failed the last month or two to develop that. Now he is going with his gut it out with the Big Four strategy. Unfortunately, that tends to get too predictable and thus easier to defend or score on. You want those starters as fresh as possible for the final five to ten minutes.

    You can't expect them to play most of the game, to always get a big lead at the beginning, then put in five cold subs and ask them to hold the lead, then end up playing the starters 40 minutes anyway in games that are decided at the buzzer. I'm learning to love Doc as a person. I'm having difficulty liking him that much as a coach except for calling plays, managing egos, and to be honest, I can't think of anything else he does well.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jump-ball-overtime. Show Jump-ball-overtime's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    This cold subs thing is getting old. Hot or cold, they can play defense because it is effort  based and has nothing to do with rhythm or being cold. Even it they don't score much, and stop the other guys for a few minutes that would be acceptable. They do not.

    What do great players that are "cold" do to get warmed up? They either take it to the rim, to get warmed up, or they pass the ball.

    This has nothing to do with being hot or cold. It has to do with taking an aggressive attitude while they do play, on defense, and offense. In the last game, they mostly stood around and took jump shots.

    Allen left Boston to get out from behind Pierce's shadow according to Tony.

    Playing time is earned and Krystic can't defend the rim against most players.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from jtkl. Show jtkl's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    In Response to Re: Blaming the reserves:
    This cold subs thing is getting old. Hot or cold, they can play defense because it is effort  based and has nothing to do with rhythm or being cold. Even it they don't score much, and stop the other guys for a few minutes that would be acceptable. They do not. What do great players that are "cold" do to get warmed up? They either take it to the rim, to get warmed up, or they pass the ball. This has nothing to do with being hot or cold. It has to do with taking an aggressive attitude while they do play, on defense, and offense. In the last game, they mostly stood around and took jump shots. Allen left Boston to get out from behind Pierce's shadow according to Tony. Playing time is earned and Krystic can't defend the rim against most players.
    Posted by Jump-ball-overtime

    Not to mention our subs are usually playing against the other teams equally cold subs. 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jump-ball-overtime. Show Jump-ball-overtime's posts

    Re: Blaming the reserves

    Yup!

    In fact we have "starters" in Krstic and Green who are having trouble against cold subs from the Knick.

    Can you say "cattle prod time".
     
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