CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL

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    Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL

    In Response to Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL:
    The Duncan VS KG debate is retarded Who F**king cares man ... KG vs Duncan in the Finals would be awesome to watch , it would not be LESS THAN a rematch with the Fakers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN6jPFq9vK4 Also, a Finals against the Dallas Mavericks would be just as ultra mega as a rematch with the Fakers.... Who cares about Tim Duncan at this point ? He ain't walking thru that door !
    Posted by PHX85014


    Apparently you care. You posted something about Tim Duncan at 1 o'clock in the morning. 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jump-ball-overtime. Show Jump-ball-overtime's posts

    Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL

    “The two great power forwards of this era have been KG and Duncan. However, Duncan is really a Center that wants to be known as a power forward, just like KG likes to be known as 6' 11' instead of his real 7'1". Even against Duncan, a true center, KG has usually gotten the best of the match-up. While Duncan has more championships, I think that most Celtic and Wolves fans would view this as more of an accident of the NBA draft, than superior play by Duncan”.  

    Since the original comparison between KG and Duncan stating that if their situations had been reversed with KG going to the Spurs and Duncan going to MN, that we would likely see KG reputation at the same level or possibly higher than Duncan, there have been several attempts to discredit the idea and disparage KGs abilities. Since the attempt were long and drawn out, I thought that a review of proof of his abilities should be made. Accolades tend to come to champions more than to non-champions as should be expected. Both Players are 34 years old. KG has been in the league for 15 years and Duncan for 13 years.

     
    1. In the years that KG competed as his teams primary scoring threat, KG’s numbers are better than Duncan’s numbers (These are the years before he joined the Celtics.) (1,2)
    2. In head to head competition when KG played directly against Duncan, KG’s numbers are better. (3)
    3. Number of All-star starts KG 11, Duncan 11. (2)
    4. Number of All-star appearances KG 13, Duncan 12. (2)
    5. Their Career field goal percentage is very similar with Duncan  at .508 and KG at .498. (2)
    6. KG has 2 rebounding titles and 5 defensive rebounding titles, Duncan has 1 rebounding title and 1 defensive rebounding title. (2)
    7. Both KG and Duncan have earned defensive first team all-NBA 9 times, but KG is the only one to be named Defensive player of the year. (2)
    8. KG is more versatile than Duncan. While Duncan has played Power forward, Center and small forward, KG has played positions one through five effectively and has guarded positions one through five effectively. (4, 5, 6, 7)
    9. KG has been first team All NBA 4 times, and Duncan has been first team All-NBA 9 times. (2) This accolade is one that is likely decided by a championship when the skills between two players are similar. The amazing thing is that KG won the honor 3 times without a championship and once with a championship. (2)
    10. While it is true that Duncan’s Spurs have won 4 championships, and the Wolves have not won a championship, the only team of any quality that KG was on, had the best record in the NBA that year, and went to the western conference finals. They faltered when both the starting point guard and the back up point guard went down with injuries. (2)
    11. Duncan has two league MVPs and KG has one. (2)
     

    No single player wins a championship. Neither Wilt nor Jordan could do it. Basketball is inherently a team sport and players require a very good team to break through. For two of the Duncan’s Spurs Championship teams, he had the services of David Robinson, also a former league MVP and defensive player of the year. Tony Parker - three time all-star and finals MVP, Ginobili - one time all star, and Bruce Bowen - perennial 1st team defensive all-NBA player were on the final three teams. The final championship Spurs team included, two-time all-star Michael Findley as well. (2)

     

    The playing field has finally been leveled now that both Duncan and KG are on great teams. The current score with both players on great teams is the Celtics with KG -1 championship, and the Spurs with Duncan - zero championships.

     

    Lets see how 2010-2011 goes.

     

    (1) http://obeese.wordpress.com/2007/12/22/kevin-garnett-vs-tim-duncan-the-great-debate/ 

     

    (2) www.basketball-reference.com/">http://www.basketball-reference.com/

     (3) http://hubpages.com/hub/Garnett-vs-Duncan(4) The NY Times: www.nytimes.com/2004/05/30/sports/pro-basketball-timberwolves-get-garnett-s-point-to-survive.html">http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/30/sports/pro-basketball-timberwolves-get-garnett-s-point-to-survive.html(5) From www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/NBA-All-Star-2003-130622.html">http://www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/NBA-All-Star-2003-130622.html (6) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Garnett

    (7) www.jockbio.com/Bios/Garnett/Garnett_bio.html">http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Garnett/Garnett_bio.html 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jump-ball-overtime. Show Jump-ball-overtime's posts

    Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL

    “The two great power forwards of this era have been KG and Duncan. However, Duncan is really a Center that wants to be known as a power forward, just like KG likes to be known as 6' 11' instead of his real 7'1". Even against Duncan, a true center, KG has usually gotten the best of the match-up. While Duncan has more championships, I think that most Celtic and Wolves fans would view this as more of an accident of the NBA draft, than superior play by Duncan” 

    Since the original comparison between KG and Duncan stating that if their situations had been reversed with KG going to the Spurs and Duncan going to MN, that we would likely see KG reputation at the same level or possibly higher than Duncan, there have been several attempts to discredit the idea and disparage KGs abilities. Since the attempt were long and drawn out, I thought that a review of proof of his abilities should be made. Accolades tend to come to champions more than to non-champions as should be expected. Both Players are 34 years old. KG has been in the league for 15 years and Duncan for 13 years.

     
    1. In the years that KG competed as his teams primary scoring threat, KG’s numbers are better than Duncan’s numbers (These are the years before he joined the Celtics.) (1,2)
    2. In head to head competition when KG played directly against Duncan, KG’s numbers are better. (3)
    3. Number of All-star starts KG 11, Duncan 11. (2)
    4. Number of All-star appearances KG 13, Duncan 12. (2)
    5. Their Career field goal percentage is very similar with Duncan  at .508 and KG at .498. (2)
    6. KG has 2 rebounding titles and 5 defensive rebounding titles, Duncan has 1 rebounding title and 1 defensive rebounding title. (2)
    7. Both KG and Duncan have earned defensive first team all-NBA 9 times, but KG is the only one to be named Defensive player of the year. (2)
    8. KG is more versatile than Duncan. While Duncan has played Power forward, Center and small forward, KG has played positions one through five effectively and has guarded positions one through five effectively. (4, 5, 6, 7)
    9. KG has been first team All NBA 4 times, and Duncan has been first team All-NBA 9 times. (2) This accolade is one that is likely decided by a championship when the skills between two players are similar. The amazing thing is that KG won the honor 3 times without a championship and once with a championship. (2)
    10. While it is true that Duncan’s Spurs have won 4 championships, and the Wolves have not won a championship, the only team of any quality that KG was on, had the best record in the NBA that year, and went to the western conference finals. They faltered when both the starting point guard and the back up point guard went down with injuries. (2)
    11. Duncan has two league MVPs and KG has one. (2)
     

    No single player wins a championship. Neither Wilt nor Jordan could do it. Basketball is inherently a team sport and players require a very good team to break through. For two of the Duncan’s Spurs Championship teams, he had the services of David Robinson, also a former league MVP and defensive player of the year. Tony Parker - three time all-star and finals MVP, Ginobili - one time all star, and Bruce Bowen - perennial 1st team defensive all-NBA player were on the final three teams. The final championship Spurs team included, two-time all-star Michael Findley as well. (2)

     

    The playing field has finally been leveled now that both Duncan and KG are on great teams. The current score with both players on great teams is the Celtics with KG -1 championship, and the Spurs with Duncan - zero championships.

     

    Lets see how 2010-2011 goes.

     

    (1) http://obeese.wordpress.com/2007/12/22/kevin-garnett-vs-tim-duncan-the-great-debate/ 

     

    (2) www.basketball-reference.com/">http://www.basketball-reference.com/

    (3) http://hubpages.com/hub/Garnett-vs-Duncan

    4) The NY Times:
    www.nytimes.com/2004/05/30/sports/pro-basketball-timberwolves-get-garnett-s-point-to-survive.html">http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/30/sports/pro-basketball-timberwolves-get-garnett-s-point-to-survive.html

    (5) From www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/NBA-All-Star-2003-130622.html">http://www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/NBA-All-Star-2003-130622.html
     
    (6) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Garnett

    (7) www.jockbio.com/Bios/Garnett/Garnett_bio.html" />http://www.jockbio.com
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL

    You really are crazy, Jump. 


    Conclusion
    After carefully examining both players head to head, if I were looking to build a title contender for the upcoming 2009-2010 NBA season, I would unequivocally select Kevin Garnett to be my starting power forward. This is not to say that Garnett is the better player of the two when comparing their careers (Duncan has played twice as many playoff games as Garnett), but rather that at this juncture in their careers I would rather have The Big Ticket patrolling the paint for me and psyching out the opposition.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL

    Too bad the 2009-10 season ended with Pau Gasol as being the best PF in the NBA.

    The article below is 3 years old. That article predicted a KG vs. Duncan Finals in 2008. Didn't come true, right? 


    Again, Duncan is slightly better than KG because Duncan is better inside the paint.  
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL

    Tim Duncan won with David Robinson, Sean Elliott, and Avery Johnson. When those players retired Duncan won 2 more championships. Tell me, how many championships did KG win without Pierce and Ray?

    There is no way that Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili are on the same level with Paul Pierce and Ray Allen, no way!

    Take away Tim Duncan and David Robinson would have no rings. Do you honestly believe that Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili would have won 2 championships without Tim Duncan?
     
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    Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL

    10. While it is true that Duncan’s Spurs have won 4 championships, and the Wolves have not won a championship, the only team of any quality that KG was on, had the best record in the NBA that year, and went to the western conference finals. They faltered when both the starting point guard and the back up point guard went down with injuries. 

    Paul Pierce didn't make any excuses when he injured his knee in Game 1 of the 2008 NBA Finals.

    Saying that the starting PG and the backup PG went down is just an excuse. The Lakers were leading that series 2-1 before Sam Cassell went down.

    Excuses do not win championships.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jump-ball-overtime. Show Jump-ball-overtime's posts

    Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL

    ...trying to change the arguement again?

    That is why I used it, as I said before. It compares KG before he joined the Celts, to Duncan before he joined the Celts. KG's roll is different with the Celtics, as I have said before. He has to be the example for selfless team play, and allow other great players a chance to do what they do well. Winning is more important to KG than statistics.  

    Championships since KG came to the Celtics:

    Celtics 1  Spurs 0 

    Gasol's was dealt with in a very early post on this thread I see no reason to repeat my self.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL

    9. KG has been first team All NBA 4 times, and Duncan has been first team All-NBA 9 times. (2) This accolade is one that is likely decided by a championship when the skills between two players are similar. The amazing thing is that KG won the honor 3 times without a championship and once with a championship.

    Once again you're manipulating the facts. Even as a rookie Tim Duncan made the 1st Team All-NBA. How many players have done that?

    KG never made 1st team All-NBA until Barkley retired. That's a fact.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL

    In Response to Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL:
    ...trying to change the arguement again? That is why I used it, as I said before. It compares KG before he joined the Celts, to Duncan before he joined the Celts. KG's roll is different with the Celtics, as I have said before. He has to be the example for selfless team play, and allow other great players a chance to do what they do well. Winning is more important to KG than statistics.   Championships since KG came to the Celtics: Celtics 1  Spurs 0  Gasol's was dealt with in a very early post on this thread I see no reason to repeat my self.
    Posted by Jump-ball-overtime


    That's where you are a sham. You don't judge a player by what he did the last 4 years. You base your judgement on what a player did his entire career.

    I will agree that since 2008 KG has been better than Duncan. But it doesn't mean that KG is now the best PF in the history of the NBA.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL

    In Response to Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL:
    ...trying to change the arguement again? That is why I used it, as I said before. It compares KG before he joined the Celts, to Duncan before he joined the Celts. KG's roll is different with the Celtics, as I have said before. He has to be the example for selfless team play, and allow other great players a chance to do what they do well. Winning is more important to KG than statistics.   Championships since KG came to the Celtics: Celtics 1  Spurs 0  Gasol's was dealt with in a very early post on this thread I see no reason to repeat my self.
    Posted by Jump-ball-overtime


    Still doesn't change the fact that KG's main weapon is his outside shot. If you watched tonight's game against the Pacers you would have seen KG miss 3 or 4 straight shots. And when he missed it was one and done.

    Again, overall Tim Duncan is slightly better than KG because Duncan is dominant in the paint. I don't think that's a lie.

    When Ray and KG first came to the Celtics nobody knew what would happen. To cut the long story short, the Celtics discovered that among the Big 3 Paul Pierce was the best option because he could score in a number of ways. That's not a lie either. Ray and KG never led the Celtics in scoring for a season. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL

    In Response to Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL:
    ...trying to change the arguement again? That is why I used it, as I said before. It compares KG before he joined the Celts, to Duncan before he joined the Celts. KG's roll is different with the Celtics, as I have said before. He has to be the example for selfless team play, and allow other great players a chance to do what they do well. Winning is more important to KG than statistics.   Championships since KG came to the Celtics: Celtics 1  Spurs 0  Gasol's was dealt with in a very early post on this thread I see no reason to repeat my self.
    Posted by Jump-ball-overtime


    You forgot to mention a very important stat. DUNCAN HAS NEVER LOST IN AN NBA FINALS!

    Tim Duncan didn't make excuses like the PGs went down or the knee is not yet 100%.

    In Game 6 of the 1998 NBA Finals Michael Jordan made the game winning shot even if he was very sick that day. 

    Excuses are for losers.
     
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    Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL

    Jump-ball-overtime/TeamUbuntu,

    Show me an article that has KG as the greatest PF in the history of the NBA, I dare you!
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jump-ball-overtime. Show Jump-ball-overtime's posts

    Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL

    All of the facts listed have references. I have made a strong case but certainly opinions can vary.

    You continue to overstate my position. I only state that if KG had been on a very good team like the Spurs, KG and Duncan would likely be considered equals or KG could be considered better than Duncan. I never said that KG was better than Duncan.   

    Your statements about my position, and on excuses are ridiculous

    I also refuse to respond to your continuous attempts to change the argument. The approach is childish.


     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL

    In Response to Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL:
    All of the facts listed have references. I have made a strong case but certainly opinions can vary. You continue to overstate my position. I only state that if KG had been on a very good team like the Spurs, KG and Duncan would likely be considered equals or KG could be considered better than Duncan. I never said that KG was better than Duncan.    Your statements about my position, and on excuses are  ridiculous .  I also refuse to respond to your continuous attempts to change the argument. The approach is childish.
    Posted by Jump-ball-overtime


    What's childish is you keep saying WHAT IF KG HAD BEEN ON A VERY GOOD TEAM LIKE THE SPURS. It's childish because WE WILL NEVER KNOW THE ANSWER.

    Since you said you never said KG was better than Duncan then I guess it's safe to say that over the course of their careers Tim Duncan is better or has the edge over KG. Do you agree?
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL

    In Response to Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL:
    All of the facts listed have references. I have made a strong case but certainly opinions can vary. You continue to overstate my position. I only state that if KG had been on a very good team like the Spurs, KG and Duncan would likely be considered equals or KG could be considered better than Duncan. I never said that KG was better than Duncan.    Your statements about my position, and on excuses are  ridiculous .  I also refuse to respond to your continuous attempts to change the argument. The approach is childish.
    Posted by Jump-ball-overtime


    Time to man up, Jump. Based on what you saw their entire careers, no what ifs, who's the better PF Timmy or KG?

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Tachometrix. Show Tachometrix's posts

    Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL

    In Response to Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL:
    In Response to Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL : Gee, somebody told you off uh, posting irrelevant subject. Who am I kidding, you don't SHT, you copy and paste, work of lazy bas tard. Probably a bas tard child too. Grow a pair you f-a-g, post something relevant and then we can talk. That's your name, Lazy F-a-g
    Posted by celticsboy11


    Hey Cockroach, I thought you already gave up on the Celtics last season. The last time I saw you was back in February chanting "Fire Doc!" and "Fire Ainge!"

    You're the F-a-g, you're the one who loves scking, Dick!
     
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