CAP room don't mean squat!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from henryfinkel. Show henryfinkel's posts

    CAP room don't mean squat!

    Alot of people are pinning the Cs rebuilding hopes on the cap space that will be available this summer. I got news for you---players have to first want to come and play for your team (or city). I believe it was one of the Bulls front office guys who said how difficult it was to attract talent after MJ & Pippen left town, even with all the money they had to spend. It wasn't until they got Rose that Chicago became a more attractive destination for free agents. Now please, don't start equating our resident head-case Rondo with Rose. It doesn't work. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see Rondo dealt during or soon after this season. Danny has got to rely on trades and the draft to start the rebuilding process. Once a new nucleus has been formed, then free agents may start  knocking on our door. Just one more thing, remember a few years ago when Orlando had built up all that cap space and couldn't find a single taker. They ended up signing some second-tier plays for way too much money. I would hate to see the Cs in the same boat. Trades and the draft are where our best hope lies.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: CAP room don't mean squat!

    I know that it seems grim, but Danny is the one responsible for acquiring Ray Allen and KG and I still trust him.  I would imagine that he has something in mind for next season.  I also don't believe that Doc would have signed a new contract if he didn't believe in the future of this team.  
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from henryfinkel. Show henryfinkel's posts

    Re: CAP room don't mean squat!

    Sorry to burst your bubble fellow posters, but Dwight Howard and Deron Williams are not walking through that door any time in the future. What "supporting" pieces do we have to offer them?  NADA!  That being the case, I am not inclined to throwing max dollars at second tier stars just for the sake of saying we signed someone. Better to rely on trades (taking on a Gasol contract for example) and the draft to rebuild.
     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Accension13. Show Accension13's posts

    Re: CAP room don't mean squat!

    Great Points Fierce and Fink!!! Everyone assumes cause the C's will have cap room it will be so easy to rebuild. You have to keep in mind that 1) This years lists of free agents is not that attractive past Howard and Williams and 2) No big name player list Boston as one of their top destinations.

    The other suggestion of blowing up the team for draft picks is just as flawed.
    1) The draft itself is always a huge gamble. OKC is often mentioned as the blueprint for building through the draft. OKC did it, but not without a lot of luck. The possibility of repeating what they did is extremely low
    2.) To acquire draft picks, the C's have to trade away players and in most cases take back matching salary. Doing that is extremely difficult because how do you find expiring contracts that match Garnetts salary (Ray is a little easier but still a challenge).
    3.) Any picks the C's acquire will likely be from a playoff teams. Rarely, do those late picks turn into star players.

    For the C's to rebuild quickly, Danny is going to have to be very creative in trading his assets. He going to have to take some risks like trading Rondo for an older Gasol or trading Rondo for D. Will with no assurances. No single move is going to make it happen. Its going to take a sequence of moves that build upon each other
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from davidap. Show davidap's posts

    Re: CAP room don't mean squat!

    I don't see why the Nets would trade Deron Williams to the Celtics when they need Williams to lure Howard away from Dirk Nowitzki and 0% state income tax in Dallas. The Nets without Williams are arguably the worst team in the league. Rondo, Bass, and a few mediocre future first round draft picks won't change that reality.

    Use Rondo as a centerpiece for a Gasol trade. Rondo and O'Neal for Gasol will never happen, but as I wrote earlier, expanding the deal so that the Lakers save cap space and enter the Dwight Howard sweepstakes would be very appealing to them. Howard would possibly pick LA if he could team up with Bynum, Bryant, and Rondo. Or at least the Lakers might think so, which is good enough for our purposes.

    People keep acting as though 31 is old. Garnett was the same age when the Celtics traded for him, and that deal resulted in one championship, and should have resulted in one or two more, if not for Garnett's injury in the title defense year and Ainge's inability to build a bench in 2010. The Celtics would have the same 3-4 year window with Gasol that they had with Garnett.

    The Celtics can beat the Heat and the Bulls with a Gasol/Odom combination, or Gasol/Kaman, or Gasol/Ilyasova. The Heat only have one decent big, who is inferior to Gasol. The Bulls have a similarly decent big in the oft-injured Carlos Boozer and a Rajon Rondo-like talented enigma in Joakim Noah. Gasol would be better than any of those guys. Force the Heat to take jumpshots, outrebound them, and the Celtics would win. Same situation with the Bulls, who only have Derrick Rose and occassionally Luol Deng as perimeter threats. (Korver is more of a role player).

    If it's true that Howard and Williams almost certainly won't come to Boston, then there's no point maintaining cap space for the sake of maintaining cap space. Go all-out for Gasol. Consider the Garnett for Marion/Odom swap (thereby making Dallas the lead team for Howard instead of a post-Gasol/Peace cap-friendly LA), and sign a decent, more obtainable free agent or two in the off-season.

    If the Celtics pull off the Garnett to Dallas and expanded Rondo to LA trades, the team could realistically look as follows next year:

    C Chris Kaman (MLE)
    PF Pau Gasol
    SF Shawn Marion
    PG Marquis Teague (should be available where the Celtics will draft)
    SG Paul Pierce

    C Chris Wilcox (LLE)
    PF Lamar Odom
    SF Metta World Peace
    PG Steve Blake
    SG Tony Wroten (should be available where the Celtics will draft)

    C Greg Stiemsma
    PF JaJuan Johnson
    SF E'twaun Moore
    PG Avery Bradley
    SG Andrew Goudelock
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: CAP room don't mean squat!

    Davidap, good luck with that team!   You could be the only team SLOWER than today's Celtics team with Kaman, Gasol, Pierce, and Marion......old and slow. 

    That is not a fix. And the posters are correct who say DH and Williams are NOT coming to Boston.  Get used to it fellow Celtic fans, we are going to be bad for a couple of years until we get a few drafted players playing well and do a trade that brings a super star.   Pierce will be gone by then, by the way.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from edcap99. Show edcap99's posts

    Re: CAP room don't mean squat!

    Celtics are way over the salary cap limit at present. The fact of KG's and RA's expiring contracts doesn't mean that the team will automatically have some $30+ million of available cap space.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Accension13. Show Accension13's posts

    Re: CAP room don't mean squat!

    In Response to Re: CAP room don't mean squat!:
    [QUOTE]Celtics are way over the salary cap limit at present. The fact of KG's and RA's expiring contracts doesn't mean that the team will automatically have some $30+ million of available cap space.
    Posted by edcap99[/QUOTE]

    KG, RAY, JO, SHAQ, and Rasheed's salaries coming off the books does. Plus, they have 1 year deals for a bunch of lesser players like Wilcox and Dooling that expire after this season too
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: CAP room don't mean squat!

    In Response to Re: CAP room don't mean squat!:
    [QUOTE]Great Points Fierce and Fink!!! Everyone assumes cause the C's will have cap room it will be so easy to rebuild. You have to keep in mind that 1) This years lists of free agents is not that attractive past Howard and Williams and 2) No big name player list Boston as one of their top destinations. The other suggestion of blowing up the team for draft picks is just as flawed. 1) The draft itself is always a huge gamble. OKC is often mentioned as the blueprint for building through the draft. OKC did it, but not without a lot of luck. The possibility of repeating what they did is extremely low 2.) To acquire draft picks, the C's have to trade away players and in most cases take back matching salary. Doing that is extremely difficult because how do you find expiring contracts that match Garnetts salary (Ray is a little easier but still a challenge). 3.) Any picks the C's acquire will likely be from a playoff teams. Rarely, do those late picks turn into star players. For the C's to rebuild quickly, Danny is going to have to be very creative in trading his assets. He going to have to take some risks like trading Rondo for an older Gasol or trading Rondo for D. Will with no assurances. No single move is going to make it happen. Its going to take a sequence of moves that build upon each other
    Posted by Accension13[/QUOTE]

    What is clear is that winning requires top draft picks - no matter how you aquire them...... durant, westbrook, howard..... lebron, wade, bosh....  dirk, terry, kidd.... melo, amare, chandler..... kobe, gasol, bynum..... deng, rose, noah.....  however you acquire top 10 picks and all-stars is the only way you are going to challenge..... Danny has nothing to offer to make that happen and to suggest somehow that Rondo enables you to acquire some of them is a joke......

    There are a few legitimate contenders for a title this year and they all include a vast array of top 10 or lottery picks.... Danny has none that are in their prime and has the opportunity to obtain none and the one and only perceived chip he has is vastly overrated, vastly overpaid, and most likely laughed at in trade proposals... when teams were looking for compensation for C Paul the names of Monta Ellis and Steph Curry and Eric Gordon, etc. was what people were looking for... not the worst shooter in the league who is a diva and the worst free throw shooter in the league......

    duh...
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: CAP room don't mean squat!

    In Response to Re: CAP room don't mean squat!:
    [QUOTE]Sorry to burst your bubble fellow posters, but Dwight Howard and Deron Williams are not walking through that door any time in the future. What "supporting" pieces do we have to offer them?  NADA!  That being the case, I am not inclined to throwing max dollars at second tier stars just for the sake of saying we signed someone. Better to rely on trades (taking on a Gasol contract for example) and the draft to rebuild.
    Posted by henryfinkel[/QUOTE]

    Pau Gasol is a second tier star.  So you would rather trade someone and give up value for a second tier star but you don't want to sign one without having to give one up.

    Got it.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from cantstopme. Show cantstopme's posts

    Re: CAP room don't mean squat!

    In Response to Re: CAP room don't mean squat!:
    [QUOTE]I don't see why the Nets would trade Deron Williams to the Celtics when they need Williams to lure Howard away from Dirk Nowitzki and 0% state income tax in Dallas. The Nets without Williams are arguably the worst team in the league. Rondo, Bass, and a few mediocre future first round draft picks won't change that reality. Use Rondo as a centerpiece for a Gasol trade. Rondo and O'Neal for Gasol will never happen, but as I wrote earlier, expanding the deal so that the Lakers save cap space and enter the Dwight Howard sweepstakes would be very appealing to them. Howard would possibly pick LA if he could team up with Bynum, Bryant, and Rondo. Or at least the Lakers might think so, which is good enough for our purposes. People keep acting as though 31 is old. Garnett was the same age when the Celtics traded for him, and that deal resulted in one championship, and should have resulted in one or two more, if not for Garnett's injury in the title defense year and Ainge's inability to build a bench in 2010. The Celtics would have the same 3-4 year window with Gasol that they had with Garnett. The Celtics can beat the Heat and the Bulls with a Gasol/Odom combination, or Gasol/Kaman, or Gasol/Ilyasova. The Heat only have one decent big, who is inferior to Gasol. The Bulls have a similarly decent big in the oft-injured Carlos Boozer and a Rajon Rondo-like talented enigma in Joakim Noah. Gasol would be better than any of those guys. Force the Heat to take jumpshots, outrebound them, and the Celtics would win. Same situation with the Bulls, who only have Derrick Rose and occassionally Luol Deng as perimeter threats. (Korver is more of a role player). If it's true that Howard and Williams almost certainly won't come to Boston, then there's no point maintaining cap space for the sake of maintaining cap space. Go all-out for Gasol. Consider the Garnett for Marion/Odom swap (thereby making Dallas the lead team for Howard instead of a post-Gasol/Peace cap-friendly LA), and sign a decent, more obtainable free agent or two in the off-season. If the Celtics pull off the Garnett to Dallas and expanded Rondo to LA trades, the team could realistically look as follows next year: C Chris Kaman (MLE) PF Pau Gasol SF Shawn Marion PG Marquis Teague (should be available where the Celtics will draft) SG Paul Pierce C Chris Wilcox (LLE) PF Lamar Odom SF Metta World Peace PG Steve Blake SG Tony Wroten (should be available where the Celtics will draft) C Greg Stiemsma PF JaJuan Johnson SF E'twaun Moore PG Avery Bradley SG Andrew Goudelock
    Posted by davidap[/QUOTE]

    Talk about stuck in mediocrity, those 1st and 2nd lineups make me want to hurl all over my key board.
     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from henryfinkel. Show henryfinkel's posts

    Re: CAP room don't mean squat!

    In Response to Re: CAP room don't mean squat!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: CAP room don't mean squat! : Pau Gasol is a second tier star.  So you would rather trade someone and give up value for a second tier star but you don't want to sign one without having to give one up. Got it.
    Posted by snakeoil123[/QUOTE]

    Gasol is better than any big currently on the Cs. He is a solid low-post scorer and defender, excellent passer and under-rated rebounder. So YES, I would gladly take my chances with him.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from painter. Show painter's posts

    Re: CAP room don't mean squat!

    In Response to Re: CAP room don't mean squat!:
    [QUOTE]Sorry to burst your bubble fellow posters, but Dwight Howard and Deron Williams are not walking through that door any time in the future. What "supporting" pieces do we have to offer them?  NADA!  That being the case, I am not inclined to throwing max dollars at second tier stars just for the sake of saying we signed someone. Better to rely on trades (taking on a Gasol contract for example) and the draft to rebuild.
    Posted by henryfinkel[/QUOTE]

    "Second-tier" does not mean "star", and that's one of the problems that led to Perkins'/T. Allen's/Davis' ultimate departures - they were "stars" in their minds but not in anyone else's.  The fact that they were given contracts disproportionate to their contributions only compounds the salary insanity in the league. Owners think they can buy championships by signing role players from other championship teams and thrust them into the limelight only to see the folly of those exorbitant contracts that have effectively changed the salary structure in the entire league. Ego, ego everywhere and not a drop of rational thought to think.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bird-to-DJ. Show Bird-to-DJ's posts

    Re: CAP room don't mean squat!

    In Response to Re: CAP room don't mean squat!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: CAP room don't mean squat! : Gasol is better than any big currently on the Cs. He is a solid low-post scorer and defender, excellent passer and under-rated rebounder. So YES, I would gladly take my chances with him.
    Posted by henryfinkel[/QUOTE]

    Agreed, Gasol is currently better as a low-post scorer/defender than JO or KG. 

    But look at your line-up - you really think you are going ANYWHERE with a starting front court on Chris Kaman (no defense), Pau (legit 2nd Tier Star), and Shawn Marion (who has lost almost all the bounce that once made him above average - and that was playing wiht Nash), while moving PP from the 3 to the 2 where we won't be able to match up real well defensively, and a 19-yr old rookie PG...  WOW!!!  If I was the Heat, I wouldn't be very concerned...
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bird-to-DJ. Show Bird-to-DJ's posts

    Re: CAP room don't mean squat!

    Cap space is all about flexibility and has real value.  Next year's FA crop does look limited outside of DWill and D12.  If you lose out there, you build with some additional youth and 1-yr contracts and maintain flexibility for the next year.  While the CBA raises the floor for what % of the cap a team must have, it doen't mean they can't be one-yr contracts.  I think everyone agrees that the "rebuild" is a multi-year process, so cap space needs to be managed...  Some people comment like simply because we have space we need to overpay people like Detroit did the other year...

    Fierce has commented on Indiana having the cap space to accept RA in a trade without sending anyone back... maybe our cap space doesn't bring the FA but allows DA the flexibility in a trade scenario next year to accomplish the same deal.  Some here think that cap space is the salvation - it may not be that but it most certainly not SQUAT!

    IMO, DA waits for antoher two weeks and decides if wee can get to the #6 seed.. if so, noone is going anywhere and he will become a buyer if he thinks he can find the next PJ Brown.  Get out of the 1st round and see if Big 4 can pull a rabbit out of the hat this year... and then have the flexibility (cap space) to try and rebuild on the fly around RR/PP (for another 2 years)/JGreen (hopefully), development of some of the youjnger guys that have looked promising, and then one or two moves that we haven;t thought of yet. 

    There is the danger of becoming that second-tier playoff team that never is good enough or bad enough... That danger exists... But the alternative (everyone's "blow it up") is to look like the Bulls post-MJ because that is nearly a foregone conclusion of many of the trades recently posted... IMO, DA/Doc/Wyc will absolutley attempt to rebuild on the fly with the threat of being stuck in the #5/#6 seed rut, rather than descend into the depths that make you look like the Wizards, Kings, etc.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from heirplain. Show heirplain's posts

    Re: CAP room don't mean squat!

    In Response to Re: CAP room don't mean squat!:
    [QUOTE]Cap space is all about flexibility and has real value .  Next year's FA crop does look limited outside of DWill and D12.  If you lose out there, you build with some additional youth and 1-yr contracts and maintain flexibility for the next year.  While the CBA raises the floor for what % of the cap a team must have, it doen't mean they can't be one-yr contracts.  I think everyone agrees that the "rebuild" is a multi-year process, so cap space needs to be managed...  Some people comment like simply because we have space we need to overpay people like Detroit did the other year... Fierce has commented on Indiana having the cap space to accept RA in a trade without sending anyone back... maybe our cap space doesn't bring the FA but allows DA the flexibility in a trade scenario next year to accomplish the same deal.  Some here think that cap space is the salvation - it may not be that but it most certainly not SQUAT! IMO, DA waits for antoher two weeks and decides if wee can get to the #6 seed.. if so, noone is going anywhere and he will become a buyer if he thinks he can find the next PJ Brown.  Get out of the 1st round and see if Big 4 can pull a rabbit out of the hat this year... and then have the flexibility (cap space) to try and rebuild on the fly around RR/PP (for another 2 years)/JGreen (hopefully), development of some of the youjnger guys that have looked promising, and then one or two moves that we haven;t thought of yet.  There is the danger of becoming that second-tier playoff team that never is good enough or bad enough... That danger exists... But the alternative (everyone's "blow it up") is to look like the Bulls post-MJ because that is nearly a foregone conclusion of many of the trades recently posted... IMO, DA/Doc/Wyc will absolutley attempt to rebuild on the fly with the threat of being stuck in the #5/#6 seed rut, rather than descend into the depths that make you look like the Wizards, Kings, etc.
    Posted by Bird-to-DJ[/QUOTE]

    Great couple of posts!

    I don't understand everyones fasination with DH and DW, True they are great players but as you suggest there will be other paths to follow.

    I would only add AB to RR/PP/JG + as a place to begin. Allowing RA and KG a chance to come back for less in a back-up role. Everyone else is keepable/negotiable to add one at a time.

    Many of the trade ideas we see here on this site are "more pain..no gain"!! Masive chemistry changes usually never work. A measured plan as we have known for the last few years seems more sound.
     
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