Doc Had to Go

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    Doc Had to Go

         Those of you who know me recognize that I rarely post on the C's forum...spending the great majority of my time on the Pats' forum. But, after reading this silly article on the Celts, entitled, "This could not have been Pan A for the Celtics", I felt inclined to comment.

         Below s the full text of the article, with my commentary in Celtic green:

     

    There's a certain clarity present only in the moments while waiting for a press conference that may never come. In a few hours or a few days (I have one eye on my car keys just in case), a group of Celtics reporters will speed off to Waltham to hear the team explain why Doc Rivers leaving to coach the Clippers is best for everyone involved. It will be explained to us that it was a mutual decision, that the Celtics even went to Rivers and suggested it, and that the coach, affable as always, said something along the lines of, "Whatever I can do to help."

    RESPONSE: Really, did Danny Ainge have a choice in this matter? Doc didn't want to reside over a team that must be rebuilt from the ground up. Can any of you really blame him for feeling this way? He's become an established coach...perhaps the best in the game. But, as Phil Jackson realized, no matter how great a coach you are, you need talent to win championships. It is the chance to win a championship that keeps the juices flowing in a coach, as much as in a player. Winning multiple championships is what establishes a coaches' legacy. Yes...the Celts could have enforced Doc's contract...and forced an unmotivated Doc to coach a bad team, or retire. How would that have helped the Celtics rebuild?

    Everyone, of course, will be of his or her own mind to determine how much of the narrative to absorb, but there's also something fun about being in this pre-spin limbo. And when I get right down to it, I keep going back to something Jeff Clark of Celtics Blog tweeted last week:

    "This couldn't have been Plan A."

    RESPONSE: Ridiculous! What else could the Celtics do? In truth, they were lucky to have gotten the Clippers' unprotected, #1 draft choice in 2015 for agreeing to let Doc go. Danny Ainge had no leverage...and he had that Celtic hating commissioner, David Stern, breathing down his neck.   

    Whether you're on Team Doc or Team Danny or tired of the whole thing, it's nearly impossible to believe that the way this thing played out over the last week was Danny Ainge's primary plan heading into the offseason. Ainge spent most of the last week haggling over the departure of his coach while the futures of Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce were put on hold. With Rajon Rondo coming off knee surgery, the Celtics still don't have a point guard. The NBA draft is Thursday, there's a situation with Terrence Williams, and we haven't even mentioned poor Chris Wilcox yet (he's the team's only free agent).

    RESPONSE: Again...what else could Danny have done? Kevin Garnett is still a viable commodity. Rondo, if healthy, will draw some interest. Paul Pierce less so. Perhaps Ainge would have been better off cap-wise and otherwise, selling off his "Big Three" at the end of last season...after Doc had signed his long term deal. But, perhaps Doc was induced into signing on by assurances that the Celts would keep their vets, and try to make another run. 

         In any event, better late than never. Danny and the rest of us exerienced first hand what happens when a team holds on too long to it's veteran stars when, in the late 80s, the team chose to ride the then "Big Three" of Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, and Robert Parish into the ground. The result was almost 20 years of irrelevance and misery...which allowed the hated Lakers to wrest the mantle of the leagues' most storied franchise, away.   

    Immediately following a 4-1 series loss to the Heat two years ago, Rivers sat down at the podium in Miami and announced, unprompted, that he was coming back. I was on deadline, tasked with wrapping up the season, and the consensus among the people covering the team had been that Doc would take his time making a decision. The announcement made our No. 1 story of the offseason a moot point in a matter of minutes. "I'm a Celtic," he said that night, and he sounded like a man who meant it.

    RESPONSE: I'm sure that Doc meant what he said. But, there are realities to be faced. Do the Celtics want to pay a coach $7mil. per year to wet-nurse a team in transition? Instead, aren't the Celtics wise to let Doc walk in order to expedite the rebuilding process...by getting compensation?  Does Danny intend to sell off his prime veteran pieces away to the highest bidder, in exchange for draft choices, and/or younger talent? This appears to be his plan...and the only plan that makes any sense.   

    It's not a reporter's place to call out Rivers for his change of heart, though fans have every right to do so. Ray Allen got plenty of grief for going to Miami. You can judge Rivers or give him a free pass, but what's clear about all this is that he wanted to stay then and he doesn't want to now.

    RESPONSE: Silly. Yes...that is not a "reporters' place". But, it certainly is the place of a sports columnist to render his/her opinion.  

    Ainge worked feverishly to get Rivers to Los Angeles. He did well to get compensation. That doesn't mean all is now well and good.

    RESPONSE: Ainge did do well, under the circumstances. Sure, the Celts may not inially be as well of without Doc. But, isn't this true of any transaction in which a team trades a known commodity for a future draft choice?

    Rivers wanting to leave is bad for everyone who stays behind. It's bad for Jeff Green, who was just starting to get his confidence under his head coach. It's bad for Avery Bradley, who clearly lost his down the last stretch of the season. It's especially bad for Rondo, who looks like someone Rivers, unfairly or not, wanted to get away from.

    RESPONSE: How is his bad for Rondo, if he and Rivers didn't get along? Whose to say that these players will all suffer without Doc? Whose to say that a guy like Brian Shaw won't be a good replacement for Doc? 

    Ainge is trying to rebuild the team, and acquiring assets is what it's all about. A first-round draft pick in exchange for a coach is a good place to start, and there's likely more compensation coming for the services of Pierce and Garnett. Rondo may be Ainge's biggest chip, if he truly wants to start from scratch.

    RESPONSE: Amen! At last we agree! 

    Rivers's desire to leave doesn't make him a bad guy. He was great with the media. We liked him, which in turn is a part of the reason fans liked him, which is part of the reason he's getting a relative free pass for the events of the last two weeks. Rivers was easy to get along with. (I'll especially miss his "you know, 'Doc' is just a nickname" stance on injuries.)

    RESPONSE: You media guys are so full of yourself! You think that you can make or break a coach by whether you like him, and give him favorable reviews? You probably also believe that fans will swallow anything that you guys write. I've got news for you...it doesn't matter whether you media folks like a coach, or not.What fans care about are his results...not how well he gets along with the press!! For example, you media clowns hate Bill Belichick. But, we fans love him, because he puts you guys in your place, and he produces!!

    Being a nice guy and putting the franchise in a bad spot are not mutually exclusive. By agreeing to go along for a ride while Ainge held out for a draft pick, Rivers helped the process. But something happened between that night in Miami two years ago, the signing of a five-year contract a few weeks later, and this offseason that made Rivers want to leave.

    RESPONSE: How do you know? Could it be that the Celtics saw a chance to get an unprotected  #1 draft choice in exchange for Doc...and that Doc saw an opportunity to go coach a talented team? Why must animosity be in the mix? 

    The Celtics have spent the bulk of their offseason trying to facilitate his departure, and they now face the daunting task of overhauling the franchise without their coach of the last nine seasons. Whatever happens from here, this could not have been the plan all along.

    RESPONSE: Ridiculous. Everybody knows that the Celtics need to rebuild. Danny Ainge appears to be taking steps to expedite the process. http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/extras/celtics_blog/2013/06/this_could_not_have_been_plan_a_for_the_celtics.html

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from chris33. Show chris33's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    Doc wasn't a very good coach.

    We can do better.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    I 100% disagree with the article. If KG, PP and Ray got old, injured or became irrelevant, plan A was ALWAYS for DOC to leave, and if he wanted to coach elsewhere, the C's would be compensated.

    Plan A was, if at all possible, KG, PP and Ray could follow DOC where ever he went.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from puddinpuddin. Show puddinpuddin's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    DA got what he deserved for signing doc to a ridiculously lucrative contract w/o due diligence... and then having it blow up in his face.

    Management  looks like there are few if any no grown ups in charge.

    Time for the owners to make some changes too... in a vote of no confidence.

    Pud

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Karllost. Show Karllost's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    I suppose if you want to force feed this fantasy of Doc into your head, who's to stop you. But Ill give you one observation of what I take away from your position


    My interpretation of your analysis is all players and coaches should freely pursue moving to a team with the best players to chase a championship.... and who can blame them??  Is that pretty much it?

    Why suffer through the rebuild, right?

    Are you a person that will watch masons, carpenters, laborers, electricians etc dig a foundation and build a house from scratch right up to the point where you can walk by, glue the street number on the mailbox.... then stand on the front porch, arms welcomingly wide open with a big smile on your face for Home & Garden magazine and proudly proclaim...Look what I did?

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Eldunker. Show Eldunker's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    Doc is not the right guy to coach a young rebuilding effort.  Coupled with his lack of interest in doing so is why he HAD to go.

    I would like to think that Doc's contract was a brilliant premeditated move by Danny (perhaps Doc was complicit) when they originally signed the contract.  Instead of a short term contract where Doc could just walk away after two years, and knowing that Doc would have value to another team, a long term contract and conditional release to another team netted the Celtics a valuable first round pick.    

    Brilliant Plan A.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from scubber. Show scubber's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    rkarp, you did not agree with the article, you agree with the response by OP to the article.  And probably because it goes along with your conspiracy theory that Doc and Ainge planned for this several years ago.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from gman101019. Show gman101019's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    In response to Eldunker's comment:

    Doc is not the right guy to coach a young rebuilding effort.  Coupled with his lack of interest in doing so is why he HAD to go.

    I would like to think that Doc's contract was a brilliant premeditated move by Danny (perhaps Doc was complicit) when they originally signed the contract.  Instead of a short term contract where Doc could just walk away after two years, and knowing that Doc would have value to another team, a long term contract and conditional release to another team netted the Celtics a valuable first round pick.    

    Brilliant Plan A.




    Great post.

     

    .“If Doc had said he wanted to stay,” said one source, “this isn’t even a conversation. He’s the Celtics coach, period.” - See more at: http://bostonherald.com/sports/celtics_nba/boston_celtics/2013

     

    Doc wanted to go and the celtics obliged. DA tried to get as much as possible and did well to get an unprotected 1'st in 15. It makes you wonder if we  really could have had both jordan and bledsoe for kg at the deadline we blew that one. Especially when the celtics fate was ALREADY sealed when rondo ,sully,barbosa all went down within a few weeks of each other, all BEFORE the deadline.  

    Those were 3 ouf our top 9 rotational players at the time.  Rondo was putting up his 13-11-5 normal line and was just about to pair up with AB.  Sully was pulling out double doubles on the regular. Barbosa was a great spark off the bench, especially at vet min deal.

    That was the time to blow it up and get max value. Playoff time is Rondo time. We all may disagree on his greatness, but not in the playoffs. Hes been our key the last few years playing 40mpg avgd  16-10-6-2. 

     

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    In response to gman101019's comment:

    In response to Eldunker's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    Doc is not the right guy to coach a young rebuilding effort.  Coupled with his lack of interest in doing so is why he HAD to go.

    I would like to think that Doc's contract was a brilliant premeditated move by Danny (perhaps Doc was complicit) when they originally signed the contract.  Instead of a short term contract where Doc could just walk away after two years, and knowing that Doc would have value to another team, a long term contract and conditional release to another team netted the Celtics a valuable first round pick.    

    Brilliant Plan A.

     




     

    Great post.

     

    .“If Doc had said he wanted to stay,” said one source, “this isn’t even a conversation. He’s the Celtics coach, period.” - See more at: http://bostonherald.com/sports/celtics_nba/boston_celtics/2013

     

    Doc wanted to go and the celtics obliged.

    RESPONSE: No. Danny wanted that #1 pick, too.

    DA tried to get as much as possible and did well to get an unprotected 1'st in 15. It makes you wonder if we  really could have had both jordan and bledsoe for kg at the deadline we blew that one.

    RESPONSE: If that deal was on the table, then yes...the Celts blew that one.   

    That was the time to blow it up and get max value. Playoff time is Rondo time. We all may disagree on his greatness, but not in the playoffs. Hes been our key the last few years playing 40mpg avgd  16-10-6-2. 

    RESPONSE: Again, if such a deal were available, ownership was very shortsighted in choosing to take playoff proceeds, rather than improve the club. I don't believe that Rondo was healthy enough to play.  

     

    [/QUOTE]


     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from gman101019. Show gman101019's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go


    RESPONSE: Again, if such a deal were available, ownership was very shortsighted in choosing to take playoff proceeds, rather than improve the club. I don't believe that Rondo was healthy enough to play

     

     

    Its not a question of believing. It was a fact. Rondo  HAD A TORN ACL. Rondo, Sully and barbosa, were all injured BEFORE  the trade deadline.

    So the cs knew that 3 of their top 9 rotation players and 2 starters (sully had just taken bbass starting job) werer going to be out for the season and they knew this before the deadline. That was their chance to blow it up and no one could have blamed them, instead we picked up jordan crawford and got knocked out of the first round for the first time in the kg era.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    In response to scubber's comment:

    rkarp, you did not agree with the article, you agree with the response by OP to the article.  And probably because it goes along with your conspiracy theory that Doc and Ainge planned for this several years ago.




    isnt me saying "I 100% disagree with the article" the same as me not agreeing with the article?

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    In response to gman101019's comment:


    RESPONSE: Again, if such a deal were available, ownership was very shortsighted in choosing to take playoff proceeds, rather than improve the club. I don't believe that Rondo was healthy enough to play

     

     

    Its not a question of believing. It was a fact. Rondo  HAD A TORN ACL. Rondo, Sully and barbosa, were all injured BEFORE  the trade deadline.

    So the cs knew that 3 of their top 9 rotation players and 2 starters (sully had just taken bbass starting job) werer going to be out for the season and they knew this before the deadline. That was their chance to blow it up and no one could have blamed them, instead we picked up jordan crawford and got knocked out of the first round for the first time in the kg era.



         This is what you said:

    "That was the time to blow it up and get max value. Playoff time is Rondo time. We all may disagree on his greatness, but not in the playoffs. Hes been our key the last few years playing 40mpg avgd  16-10-6-2."

         This gave me the impression that you were talking about trading Rondo at the trade deadline. Of course, no one is going to trade for a guy who can't play.  
        

        

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from gman101019. Show gman101019's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go


      This gave me the impression that you were talking about trading Rondo at the trade deadline. Of course, no one is going to trade for a guy who can't play.  
        

    No not trade rondo. Trade kg and pp. I was trying to make the point of how vital rondo is to our chances in the playoffs. Once we lost rondo for the season we had no chance in the playoffs. And on top of that we lost BOTH sully and barbosa for the year too.ALL BEFORE THE TRADE DEADLINE. So we knew we were done. So DA  had a perfect excuse to blow it up right there.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

    In response to gman101019's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     


    RESPONSE: Again, if such a deal were available, ownership was very shortsighted in choosing to take playoff proceeds, rather than improve the club. I don't believe that Rondo was healthy enough to play

     

     

    Its not a question of believing. It was a fact. Rondo  HAD A TORN ACL. Rondo, Sully and barbosa, were all injured BEFORE  the trade deadline.

    So the cs knew that 3 of their top 9 rotation players and 2 starters (sully had just taken bbass starting job) werer going to be out for the season and they knew this before the deadline. That was their chance to blow it up and no one could have blamed them, instead we picked up jordan crawford and got knocked out of the first round for the first time in the kg era.

     



         This is what you said:

     

    "That was the time to blow it up and get max value. Playoff time is Rondo time. We all may disagree on his greatness, but not in the playoffs. Hes been our key the last few years playing 40mpg avgd  16-10-6-2."

         This gave me the impression that you were talking about trading Rondo at the trade deadline. Of course, no one is going to trade for a guy who can't play.  
        

        

    [/QUOTE]


    Your analysis makes sense,  the thing that bothers me is we could stink indefinitely.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from scubber. Show scubber's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    In response to scubber's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    rkarp, you did not agree with the article, you agree with the response by OP to the article.  And probably because it goes along with your conspiracy theory that Doc and Ainge planned for this several years ago.

     




     

    isnt me saying "I 100% disagree with the article" the same as me not agreeing with the article?

    [/QUOTE]

    My apology for misreading.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from celtaddict. Show celtaddict's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    Common everyone...Doc was forced out by Ainge and ownership. Ainge wants uptempo style and Doc wants to operate that stagnant 85 point offense. Celts would lose 88 t0 84 and Doc blaming the D...wow. Give up 88 in the NBA and you should win most games. Doc is a vet players coach...translation they can do what they want to and Doc will take it out on youngsters and Rondo would not stand for it. Our rebounding both defensive and offensive was horrible and hard to watch. Doc teaches to box out facing your man,like a football lineman, okay never heard of that til I see us doing it. How about seeing the ball, only the first fundamental that is taught..lol. Oh, I know Docs D is great. Well I would rather lose 110 to 105 than 88 to 84, at least it is fun to watch.  Doc had 3 HOFers in their prime and barely won one title. Seven million should get us more.  Doc is a good coach and better PR man. We can do better from coaching standpoint and for less money. Also, this garbage from these media people saying we are going to get a temporary coach because we are rebuilding is ridiculous. When you have young and or inexperienced players you need a great coach so they develop good basketball and work habits. So,wewill have a great coach next year.

     

     

     

     

     

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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    In response to gman101019's comment:


      This gave me the impression that you were talking about trading Rondo at the trade deadline. Of course, no one is going to trade for a guy who can't play.  
        

    No not trade rondo. Trade kg and pp. I was trying to make the point of how vital rondo is to our chances in the playoffs. Once we lost rondo for the season we had no chance in the playoffs. And on top of that we lost BOTH sully and barbosa for the year too.ALL BEFORE THE TRADE DEADLINE. So we knew we were done. So DA  had a perfect excuse to blow it up right there.



         I'm not sure that this was Danny's decision to make. Ownership may have pushed to keep the Big Three together, for one last playoff run. But...what's done is done. KG and Pierce must go. With Rondo is coming off a knee injury, his trade value would be lowered. So...the Celts are probably better off keeping him, at least until he proves that he's 100%. 

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    In response to concord27's comment:

     

    "That was the time to blow it up and get max value. Playoff time is Rondo time. We all may disagree on his greatness, but not in the playoffs. Hes been our key the last few years playing 40mpg avgd  16-10-6-2."

         This gave me the impression that you were talking about trading Rondo at the trade deadline. Of course, no one is going to trade for a guy who can't play.  
     




    Your analysis makes sense,  the thing that bothers me is we could stink indefinitely.

    RESPONSE: It's the only way. Keep these guys until they run down, and you're left with nothing. Again, look what happened when the Celtics decided to keep Bird, Parish, and McHale together for "one last run". The Celtics became an NBA wasteland for 20 years.

     

    [/QUOTE]


     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Gasthoerer. Show Gasthoerer's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    In response to celtaddict's comment:

    Doc had 3 HOFers in their prime and barely won one title.




    Sorry, Doc never had 3 HOFs in their prime. The only time this team was a favorite for the title, it won the title, but KG and Ray were clearly not in their prime anymore. This run was cut short by KGs injury. To sum it up: When we were supposed to win, we won and in all the other years we overachieved with an aging team.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from dbeach48. Show dbeach48's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    glad doc is gone

    get something for KG and PP  and get readyu for not making the playoffs   afew yrs

     

    DA Gave out  large contracts to terry lee  green  

    and of course  doc

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    In response to Gasthoerer's comment:

    In response to celtaddict's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    Doc had 3 HOFers in their prime and barely won one title.

     



    Sorry, Doc never had 3 HOFs in their prime. The only time this team was a favorite for the title, it won the title, but KG and Ray were clearly not in their prime anymore. This run was cut short by KGs injury. To sum it up: When we were supposed to win, we won and in all the other years we overachieved with an aging team.

    [/QUOTE]

         It will be interesting to see whether Doc can lead the Clippers to a title next season. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from bingobilly. Show bingobilly's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    It really doesn't matter whether or not Rivers was a "good" or "bad" or whatever coach.  What matters is the Celtics are a business and just like in any business when profits are not at the desired level judged by ownership then heads must roll.  When heads roll it does not matter who's head it is as long as "new blood" is infused into the organization.  Therefore, as I have inferred, this is simply a business decision and in my opinion a very good one!

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Doc Had to Go

    In response to bingobilly's comment:

    It really doesn't matter whether or not Rivers was a "good" or "bad" or whatever coach.  What matters is the Celtics are a business and just like in any business when profits are not at the desired level judged by ownership then heads must roll.  When heads roll it does not matter who's head it is as long as "new blood" is infused into the organization.  Therefore, as I have inferred, this is simply a business decision and in my opinion a very good one!



         Agreed. Neither Danny Ainge or Doc is to blame or the split. Doc was candid with Danny. He didn't want to nurse-maid a rebuilding team. Yet, by keeping a low profile, Doc allowed Danny to negotiate a deal...which netted the Celts an unprotected, 2015 first round pick. In basketball or in business, you need employees who want to be there and work for you. 

         A good deal for Doc, Danny, and the Clippers. 

     

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