Down on the Plantation...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Down on the Plantation...

    I don't post here much and I am sure I am about to make some very unhappy with me  ...

      But with two prominent sports figures, one directly related to the NBA lockout, calling the situation and even the commissioner - and I have no personal attachment to the man or the owners in any way shape or form - plantation owners and a third, who I do admire (Mike Wilbong) understanding the postition being parlayed....

      I am led to wonder

    1)  How many servants on plantations were allowed to work for which ever plantation owner that would have them ...

    2)  How many servants would have been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for doing a job that they had crafted to a fine art per season ... and how many would have been paid multiple millions of dollars per season, those who had crafted their skills to the highest levels ... and since we are talking plantations here, we are still talking seasons.

    3)  I wonder how many servants' quarters would have looked like these servants' quarters:

    (servant Kobe Bryant - )

    (Shaq's house -one of them ? )






    4)  I suppse the NBA stands for National Bigots Association.


    There is enough real stuff going on ...  is it really necessary to somehow bring up this horrid old image in the mind?

    Players can plat here, overseas, wherever their skill sets fit and they are sought out.  I know contracts and such bear limitations, but to equate this with those unsavory times and places ...


    BTW ... servant may not sound harsh enough - and I agree - but I took a little bit of Greek in my day and "doulos" in classic Greek means servant, slave - in that old time, they meant the same thing quite often.

    I won't be supporting plantation life ... 

    But if we are talking about two groups of very powerful, very talented people trying to hash out labor contracts, I will be willing to support the National Basketball Association - and the Celtics.

    Plantation?  Please.

    ::  ::  ::  ::  ::


     
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from 21st. Show 21st's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    This is what you usually see on a plantation.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    Not sure of your point, Yaz, but maybe you are saying that players are not "slaves on a plantation" because they make so much money?   

    No, they are not on a plantation.  But, some of the rules that some folks advocate would make them captive to their team forever.  If that's the case, then they will have no leverage to get paid those millions of dollars that buy the homes you picture.   Now, why should they get these huge contracts anyway, right?   Because they are the reason there's a product.  Its their talents that the fans come to see and to cheer for.   So, the owners can't make mega millions without them so they deserve part of the money.

    Normal workers don't individually create such high value.  If fans, television, advertising, etc all pay huge amounts of money because of the players - then the players deserve part of the profits for what they created.   If they, as workers are not valuable enough to drive ticket sales and tee shirt sales and television contracts (ie. they are easily replaceable) , then they don't deserve the money.   

    Players deserve the right to negotiate with other teams in a reasonably open market after they've fulfilled their requirements of an initial contact.   I don't know if its 4 years or 6 years but after some time, they deserve free agency and without so many restrictions that they have no rights.  

    To do otherwise would make them "captive workers" and they WON'T have the right to share int he megamillions of revenue and profits that they generate for owners.   I want workers everywhere to share in more profits but especially where the workers ARE THE PRODUCT!!! 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from puddinpuddin. Show puddinpuddin's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    In Response to Re: Down on the Plantation...:
    [QUOTE]Not sure of your point, Yaz, but maybe you are saying that players are not "slaves on a plantation" because they make so much money?    No, they are not on a plantation.  But, some of the rules that some folks advocate would make them captive to their team forever.  If that's the case, then they will have no leverage to get paid those millions of dollars that buy the homes you picture.   Now, why should they get these huge contracts anyway, right?   Because they are the reason there's a product.  Its their talents that the fans come to see and to cheer for.   So, the owners can't make mega millions without them so they deserve part of the money. Normal workers don't individually create such high value.  If fans, television, advertising, etc all pay huge amounts of money because of the players - then the players deserve part of the profits for what they created.   If they, as workers are not valuable enough to drive ticket sales and tee shirt sales and television contracts (ie. they are easily replaceable) , then they don't deserve the money.    Players deserve the right to negotiate with other teams in a reasonably open market after they've fulfilled their requirements of an initial contact.   I don't know if its 4 years or 6 years but after some time, they deserve free agency and without so many restrictions that they have no rights.   To do otherwise would make them "captive workers" and they WON'T have the right to share int he megamillions of revenue and profits that they generate for owners.   I want workers everywhere to share in more profits but especially where the workers ARE THE PRODUCT!!! 
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]

    And when there are loses, do you believe that the workers should share in the loses too?

    Pud
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    In Response to Re: Down on the Plantation...:
    [QUOTE]This is what you usually see on a plantation.
    Posted by 21st[/QUOTE]

    How'd you get my family picture?
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    In Response to Re: Down on the Plantation...:
    [QUOTE]Not sure of your point, Yaz, but maybe you are saying that players are not "slaves on a plantation" because they make so much money?    No, they are not on a plantation.  But, some of the rules that some folks advocate would make them captive to their team forever.  If that's the case, then they will have no leverage to get paid those millions of dollars that buy the homes you picture.   Now, why should they get these huge contracts anyway, right?   Because they are the reason there's a product.  Its their talents that the fans come to see and to cheer for.   So, the owners can't make mega millions without them so they deserve part of the money. Normal workers don't individually create such high value.  If fans, television, advertising, etc all pay huge amounts of money because of the players - then the players deserve part of the profits for what they created.   If they, as workers are not valuable enough to drive ticket sales and tee shirt sales and television contracts (ie. they are easily replaceable) , then they don't deserve the money.    Players deserve the right to negotiate with other teams in a reasonably open market after they've fulfilled their requirements of an initial contact.   I don't know if its 4 years or 6 years but after some time, they deserve free agency and without so many restrictions that they have no rights.   To do otherwise would make them "captive workers" and they WON'T have the right to share int he megamillions of revenue and profits that they generate for owners.   I want workers everywhere to share in more profits but especially where the workers ARE THE PRODUCT!!! 
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]

    I agree 100% .... the workers are the product.  I have no problem with free agency - it has hellped both the recent Celtics and Red Sox.  The days that Curt Flood (also baseball, but you probably know) that started to get the strangle hold on players broken has been invaluable to the pro games we enjoy.

    It has also driven the cost of everything up.

    The team owners are JUST as guilty here as anyone, because they have been willing to pay the higher and higher rates for FA stars and super stars.  I don't cry over the pain the owners have casude themselves ... they are cutting their own throats - not fatally, yet.  

    But the agreement between the owners and players in the NBA is roughly over 1% to 2% of the total gross of basketball income.  

    It is silly to lose the fans, cost peripheral businesses and employees their businesses and jobs, over this power play.

    I realize soft salary caps and hard salary caps are involved and surely other things I have no idea what might be ...

    But to go to the point that they are calling the owners slave owners is just trying to cause incindiery feelings, not resolve things.  If they aren't trying to resolve things, then bump them all.  Play in Italy.  Or Latvia ....

    I'm not happy with either side.

    I walked away from baseball for a couple of seasons after the '87 work stoppage ... the wife and I had a blast watching the kids play - Little League ... even, and especially the LL World Series ... Tom's River won and we enjoyed it for the fun of it.

    I've volunteered several years and helped start booster clubs for everything from soccer to robotics ... meaning, there's plenty of other stuff to support, I guess. (No one -or not many - really need(s) to start booster clubs for football and basketball ...)  And for the pleasure of watching kids grow and develop ... 

    But these pros, these "poor little rich men," start to wear on me when they cry foul ... they have had almost 60% of the basketball income for the last several years (57%).  I can understand not wanting to give up that percentage, but you know what, I'm earning nearly 40% less now than 5 years ago.  A lot of us as earning less ... 

    The team owners, btw, pay for the costs so the show goes on.  There should be some compensation for them.

    I'll boil it down to this ...

    Several times before, other leagues have started up.  Some have failed - even most - but some have succeeded.  If there is really a desire to be free of the control of owners, start the players league.  

    The ABA, the AFL, the USFL, even the three on three street leagues (I don't recall the name of it or them), the countless boxing and wrestling associations ... all break offs, mutinies, new chances ... bucking the establishment.

    But the need to say the owners are running a plantation?  I don't think so.  

         I've been a Celtic fan since 1963.  I am glad for the players these days not having to have off season jobs, like in the old days.  I am glad they have a union to stand up for them.  But I'm also glad we had the owners who put up the initial cost and the operating costs so that the game can be played at all.

       The chicken or the egg, which one came first?  That is not really the question.  The question is, can one do without the other?  The answer is, not for long.
     
  7. This post has been removed.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    Of course its not really a plantation.  Its a statement made to draw attention to a point of view.  Both sides are doing it - making broad statements to bolster their own point of view.  Owners tried it from day one by taking players names off the web sites and such nonsense.   Players did it too.  

    This is a negotiation and both sides are guilty of playing too many games to gain every little edge in the process.   I wish they'd all just settle down now and reach an compromise that gets the league back in business.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    In Response to Re: Down on the Plantation...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Down on the Plantation... : And when there are loses, do you believe that the workers should share in the loses too? Pud
    Posted by puddinpuddin[/QUOTE]


    Yes, Pud.  Players have to take some responsibility for the losses.  That's what they are already agreeing to.  Its called a salary reduction and that's what a cut from 57% BRi to 52% or 51% or even 50% really is.....a cut in pay to take a share of the losses.  

    But, they can't take respnosibility for ALL the loss.  Some of that goes to management action like the dumb long term very expensive contracts management signs for mediocre players.   No one forced those dumb deals.  It wasn't required by the CBA.  It was management decision that gave Posey extra years, Allan Houston mad money, Rashard Lewis more money than he ever deserved, Eddie Curry money like he was Lebron or Kobe, etc.

    That's why the owners need to compromise.  The players have shown major movement.  Its time for the owners to do the same and stop alienating the fans with Billionaires fighting over the last few million!

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from puddinpuddin. Show puddinpuddin's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    In Response to Re: Down on the Plantation...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Down on the Plantation... : Yes, Pud.  Players have to take some responsibility for the losses.  That's what they are already agreeing to.  Its called a salary reduction and that's what a cut from 57% BRi to 52% or 51% or even 50% really is.....a cut in pay to take a share of the losses.   But, they can't take respnosibility for ALL the loss.  Some of that goes to management action like the dumb long term very expensive contracts management signs for mediocre players.   No one forced those dumb deals.  It wasn't required by the CBA.  It was management decision that gave Posey extra years, Allan Houston mad money, Rashard Lewis more money than he ever deserved, Eddie Curry money like he was Lebron or Kobe, etc. That's why the owners need to compromise.  The players have shown major movement.  Its time for the owners to do the same and stop alienating the fans with Billionaires fighting over the last few million!
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]

    I was thinking more about loses at the team level since players are employed by teams, not by the league.

    Should players take finaicial hits when their own teams lose money? If the player is the product and the product loses money (i.e., the team stinks), does the player share/participate in the loss?

    Pud 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Karllost. Show Karllost's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    Players taking a cut in BRI is not really sharing in the teams losses. The BRI reduction is in the future, not the past. The losses the owners have suffered to date are owned 100% by the owners. The players are not taking the BRI cut retroactively therefore, not sharing in any losses. IF they want to share in the losses, then the owners have to be accountable to disclose their financials and the BRI should be floating to accomodate the owners P&L.

    Also, when we hear about how the players are the product and thats the reason so much revenue is generated is really off base.  The best players arent the primary reason NBA owners are making (some at least) so much money imo.

    The real facts are the NBA had the best players since the league was initially formed 50 million years ago. THey werent making money or much of it. The reason NBA teams started making big money is because the teams & the NBA  started spending big $$$$$ on MARKETING.

    Marketing and promotion is what elevated the league financially... the best players were always the common denominator yet the money wasnt rolling in until the MARKETING $dollars & strategies went to work. That expenditure came out of the NBA & owners pockets.

    Many complained about the coddling of Lebron since HS.. ESPN & the NBA made him a superstar before he set foot on an NBA court. HE was already worth 10's of millions to the NBA his first season.

    Marketing gets lousy politicians elected and has people buying rotten products off of store shelves.

    Dont tell me one day back in the 80's America all of a sudden decided they couldnt get enough of the NBA.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from michaelf101. Show michaelf101's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    Has the race card started ? Everyone is so sick of these arrogant spoiled babies I hope they never play again
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from puddinpuddin. Show puddinpuddin's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    In Response to Re: Down on the Plantation...:
    [QUOTE]Players taking a cut in BRI is not really sharing in the teams losses. The BRI reduction is in the future, not the past. The losses the owners have suffered to date are owned 100% by the owners. The players are not taking the BRI cut retroactively therefore, not sharing in any losses. IF they want to share in the losses, then the owners have to be accountable to disclose their financials and the BRI should be floating to accomodate the owners P&L. Also, when we hear about how the players are the product and thats the reason so much revenue is generated is really off base.  The best players arent the primary reason NBA owners are making (some at least) so much money imo. The real facts are the NBA had the best players since the league was initially formed 50 million years ago. THey werent making money or much of it. The reason NBA teams started making big money is because the teams & the NBA  started spending big $$$$$ on MARKETING. Marketing and promotion is what elevated the league financially... the best players were always the common denominator yet the money wasnt rolling in until the MARKETING $dollars & strategies went to work. That expenditure came out of the NBA & owners pockets. Many complained about the coddling of Lebron since HS.. ESPN & the NBA made him a superstar before he set foot on an NBA court. HE was already worth 10's of millions to the NBA his first season. Marketing gets lousy politicians elected and has people buying rotten products off of store shelves. Dont tell me one day back in the 80's America all of a sudden decided they couldnt get enough of the NBA.
    Posted by Karllost[/QUOTE]

    My sense is that the player isn't the product. The brand is much more the product.

    Players come and go. The brand (or lack of brand) endures.

    Celticfan4life want the players to participate in the profits (less so the losses) but vaguely at the league level, not where the rubber meets the road (or sneakers meet the hardwood) at the team level.

    The player's loyalty/accountability is to the industry/league, not to the company/team seems to be his sentiment. Yet the company/team pays the player $$$ right off the top.

    And the company is positioned to absorb the loss, not the player who gets his... irregardless.

    Little player accountability here. Little player loyalty shown... despite the big bucks paid by the employer.

    Lack of player motivation all too often? I think I know why.

    They have precious little/no skin in the game.

    Pud
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    Come on guys - its a labor negotiation. During that process, owners and workers fight over every dollar and over all the terms.   But, I cannot agree with you that players have no loyalty to their team.   Even while Lebron was with Cleveland, he was trying to fight for his hometown team.  He signed his first free agent deal with them and stayed there.  To say, for example, that Paul Pierce has no loyalty to the Celtics is not realistic in my opinion.  He could have gotten a better deal by going someone else but wanted to stay with his long term Celtics team.  

    Now - every player (like Lebron) wants to also win a championship and the loyalty to your team only goes so far if you think they aren't out to win as you are.   So, I realize their loyalty is not "blind" and doesn't overtake all other factors.

    Agree - Players do NOT take a personal loss from the team's P&L.  But, players lose reputation and money and endorsements when their team is a loser so I do think they are vested in the success of their team.  But, they are NOT vested like an owner (so they don't make the money an owner makes nor do they have the losses an owner takes......nor do they gain in the long term valuation growth of the Franchise).
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Red-16Russ-11. Show Red-16Russ-11's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    In Response to Re: Down on the Plantation...:
    [QUOTE]Come on guys - its a labor negotiation. During that process, owners and workers fight over every dollar and over all the terms.   But, I cannot agree with you that players have no loyalty to their team.   Even while Lebron was with Cleveland, he was trying to fight for his hometown team.  He signed his first free agent deal with them and stayed there.  To say, for example, that Paul Pierce has no loyalty to the Celtics is not realistic in my opinion.  He could have gotten a better deal by going someone else but wanted to stay with his long term Celtics team.   Now - every player (like Lebron) wants to also win a championship and the loyalty to your team only goes so far if you think they aren't out to win as you are.   So, I realize their loyalty is not "blind" and doesn't overtake all other factors. Agree - Players do NOT take a personal loss from the team's P&L.  But, players lose reputation and money and endorsements when their team is a loser so I do think they are vested in the success of their team.  But, they are NOT vested like an owner (so they don't make the money an owner makes nor do they have the losses an owner takes......nor do they gain in the long term valuation growth of the Franchise).
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]

    EXACTLY - so if they are not  vested, why do they have to split the profits 50-50?  And NOT share the losses?
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    One other clarification - I'm not "advocating" that the players have profit sharing but when asked by at least 2 people on this board, I would respond with "Yes" to profit sharing if that got them to closing a team.   I think the base agreement has to be salary but they could always structure it that if in a certain year the league is profitable, then the players are allowed a raise the following year.

    But, I'm not for them taking team by team profits and losses because the players may start doing dumb things to influence profit and loss when in fact, its the GMs that drive player signings and the owners/stadiums/concessions/etc that drive overall franchise profits - all things the players should have nothing to do with.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Red-16Russ-11. Show Red-16Russ-11's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    In Response to Re: Down on the Plantation...:
    [QUOTE]One other clarification - I'm not "advocating" that the players have profit sharing but when asked by at least 2 people on this board, I would respond with "Yes" to profit sharing if that got them to closing a team.   I think the base agreement has to be salary but they could always structure it that if in a certain year the league is profitable, then the players are allowed a raise the following year. But, I'm not for them taking team by team profits and losses because the players may start doing dumb things to influence profit and loss when in fact, its the GMs that drive player signings and the owners/stadiums/concessions/etc that drive overall franchise profits - all things the players should have nothing to do with.
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]

    And what do you suggest now, when clearly the league is not making a profit?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    Red,

    As I've suggested before loud and clear - the players agreeing to a cut in pay of $250 to $280M when the league lost $300M (that's the number the league comes up with) is enough. The rest of the league's problems can be resolved by the management making better decisions (no more dumb expensive long term contracts to medium calibre players).    The management teams also have to do what all of us businessmen have to do - do a better job of marketing our product, manage our expenses down, and keep our costs from going up.   With a $250M to $280M cut in expenses - they can start making money and with a little smarts and management discipline, they can really improve their profitability.

    Further, I think league contraction is an option to help.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Red-16Russ-11. Show Red-16Russ-11's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    In Response to Re: Down on the Plantation...:
    [QUOTE]Red, As I've suggested before loud and clear - the players agreeing to a cut in pay of $250 to $280M when the league lost $300M (that's the number the league comes up with) is enough. The rest of the league's problems can be resolved by the management making better decisions (no more dumb expensive long term contracts to medium calibre players).    The management teams also have to do what all of us businessmen have to do - do a better job of marketing our product, manage our expenses down, and keep our costs from going up.   With a $250M to $280M cut in expenses - they can start making money and with a little smarts and management discipline, they can really improve their profitability. Further, I think league contraction is an option to help.
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]


    Great - I agree!  Contraction hasn't been discussed, and all the system changes the owners want to make will limit the bad contracts - it's the players who don't want that!!
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from puddinpuddin. Show puddinpuddin's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    In Response to Re: Down on the Plantation...:
    [QUOTE]One other clarification - I'm not "advocating" that the players have profit sharing but when asked by at least 2 people on this board, I would respond with "Yes" to profit sharing if that got them to closing a team.   I think the base agreement has to be salary but they could always structure it that if in a certain year the league is profitable, then the players are allowed a raise the following year. But, I'm not for them taking team by team profits and losses because the players may start doing dumb things to influence profit and loss when in fact, its the GMs that drive player signings and the owners/stadiums/concessions/etc that drive overall franchise profits - all things the players should have nothing to do with.
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]

    Like what for instance?

    What might they do under conditions where salary is tied to P/L that they wouldn't do under current conditions?

    Pud
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    In Response to Re: Down on the Plantation...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Down on the Plantation... : Like what for instance? What might they do under conditions where salary is tied to P/L that they wouldn't do under current conditions? Pud
    Posted by puddinpuddin[/QUOTE]


    Dumb:  Worrying about why the owner isn't doing something with ticket prices or concession sales or another player's contract rather than worrying more about playing basketball.   

    Come on, Pud.   Let's not continue this on and on and on discussion that's getting off the point.  Time to move to another thread for me.  
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from puddinpuddin. Show puddinpuddin's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    In Response to Re: Down on the Plantation...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Down on the Plantation... : Dumb:  Worrying about why the owner isn't doing something with ticket prices or concession sales or another player's contract rather than worrying more about playing basketball.    Come on, Pud.   Let's not continue this on and on and on discussion that's getting off the point.  Time to move to another thread for me.  
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]

    Sounds to me that the very worst thing that could happen is that the players become keenly aware of the profitability of the franchise and earn their money staying in shape and playing hard every night.

    I think we've solved the motivational problem on this team. Can you imagine how good the Cs would be if our PG no longer suffered episodes of chronic boredom because he finally had some skin in the game? 

    Same with our BU 5 who suffers from chronic over-weight problems that take away from his game?

    I could go on and on.....

    We have 3 self-motivated future HOFers who are true professionals and who earn their keep every night playing their best, staying focused  and giving back to the franchise.

    Beyond that, there is a dramatic drop off in loyalty and commitment to winning.

    Pud
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from CaptChris. Show CaptChris's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    If you had a BRI type deal and worked for Budweiser, you would be getting 50% of the profit from the "manure" from the Clydesdales!  That's how sick, the old CBA was.

    The "poor" players got 57% of the profit from the mascot and dancer's public appearances.  Good job guys.

    No company would ever start a new league and sign a CBA like the last one.


    Imagine if all players were signed to a Personnal Service contract, that gave the Owners 57% of all money they got from wearing Joe's Jocks and Sammy's Shoes.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    Pud, good post man.....
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Down on the Plantation...

    In Response to Re: Down on the Plantation...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Down on the Plantation... : Sounds to me that the very worst thing that could happen is that the players become keenly aware of the profitability of the franchise and earn their money staying in shape and playing hard every night. I think we've solved the motivational problem on this team. Can you imagine how good the Cs would be if our PG no longer suffered episodes of chronic boredom because he finally had some skin in the game?  Same with our BU 5 who suffers from chronic over-weight problems that take away from his game? I could go on and on..... We have 3 self-motivated future HOFers who are true professionals and who earn their keep every night playing their best, staying focused  and giving back to the franchise. Beyond that, there is a dramatic drop off in loyalty and commitment to winning. Pud
    Posted by puddinpuddin[/QUOTE]

    I disagree about that and think if you were close enough to the team, you'd see BBD, Green, Rondo, and others all working hard.  Failure or lack of skill is not always due to not working hard.   
     

Share