Ever think where we would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Ever think where we would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?

    People must have forgot that somber feeling after losing game 7.  Seeing our prideful players in tears after their oustanding effort running on fumes.  I know I thought to myself  "why bring these guys bacK"  "how can they climb that mountain again"

    Many times this year when we struggled, I revisited these questions and asked myself..."Is it realistic to think this team can get back to the Finals"  The beginning of the year proved that the decision was a good one.  Only thing is that this team cant function without Rondo playing lights out...because although haters wont admit it...Rondo is the key to success, not Shaq or anyone else...cuz if he dont play well, we dont even get past the 1st round where Shaq is needed.  I guess I'm just happy to have a horse in the race, a proven, albiet older horse, but proven!

    We could all be sitting here watching and rooting for the Bulls had Danny chosen to blow this team up....So we gave it another run for year 4.  No garuantees, and no looking back.  We are here up 2-0, and it didnt look good, but we are far from being in the worse shape....the way injuries have hit teams in the playoffs anything could still happen, but atleast we are rooting for the C's in the playoffs.  If Ray isnt resigned and Paul and K.G. are playing for Doug Collins..or L.Frank, how far do we go?  It was either try and get back up that big mountain with the same cast, or fast forward to mediocrity.  Sooo, lets enjoy this postseason...god knows the future is uncertain...but im still happy we gave it another shot...May not be an NBA next year.  Rondo is the Key.  K.G. cant dominate a game anymore....Ray is nothing without someone getting him the ball and Paul is suddenly needed to be Shane Battier and M.J. on the same night...It aint happening.  I wish people would realize we are struggling because our main core players are 34 y/o...and we have the weakest bench (right now) in the league.  Doc better find someone on the bench who can play or the Big 3 will wither away and we will have to hear about how it was Rondo's fault or Danny's fault for not keeping Perk.  If we lose, its noones fault. Its called "this wasnt are year"  Did perk have access to a fountain of youth that he distributed to the Big 3?  If not...I dont know why we think he is the reason we are struggling.  We have an old core of players in year 4 of a 3 year window with no capable backups to rest them.  Anything we get from these guys this postseason should be applauded.

    sorry for the long winded post...hope u stuck w/ me...lol
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Ever think where would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?

    I needed to bump this...i guess you guys didnt notice it...lol

    I gotcha back
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Ever think where would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?

    Good perspective, Jay.  Thanks and yes - i agree with you about being thankful for what we have.  
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from CeltsSox. Show CeltsSox's posts

    Re: Ever think where would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?

    Jay, I really enjoy and appreciate your positive attitude, however the reality is that Doc did stay, however he acts like a guy more than ready to get out of town (Boston), and Ray and Paul did re-sign with the Celtics. In addition, many of us continue to invest our entertainment dollars and emotions in our guys. Therefore, the team, including Danny and Doc owe us their "best efforts" to win #18. Wyc once stated, I received it personally, that he and the investors were dedicated to win #18 even if it "killed him". That's going a bit too far, however the reality is that Rondo played an incredible game yesterday and the C's were fortunate to win. They got killed on the boards which is not something that Rondo has control. Doc chose to keep JON, Kris, Troy, and Jeff Green on the bench. He was reacting to the Knicks need to go small instead of taking advantage of the fact that the Knicks had to go small. What not go big and take over the glass in order to support Rondo instead of negate his efforts.

    Clearly Doc and Danny are not on the same page. Danny believed that he traded up, and Doc believes the upgrades are not qualified to play in the playoffs. The net result is the C's appear to be the same team before the trade minus Perk and Shaq. All of us should be proud and grateful for where the Celtics find themselves. Now its time for Doc to throw ego in the trash can and use the tools that Danny brought in. If they are useless, so be it. However, what's the point of burning up the Big 4 simply to make to Round #2!! It's not too late to win it all Doc!!!!  Give the new guys a chance to make a difference.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Ever think where would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?

    If I am gonna die, i wanna use all my guns!  he better sit down with Danny, but I would think that convo already happened.

    It was in February, and Danny came into Docs office..

    Danny: Hey, just got off the phone with OKC, they are willing to give us Kristic and Green for Perk and Nate

    Doc: Really.....(long pause)....so Marquis is really not gonna give it a go?

    Danny: No Doc, the guy isnt even cleared to run yet.

    Doc: Ok, you really sure you want to dump Perk, Shaq is still out.

    Danny: yeah, got no choice...Kristic can play..I know Def. JON is back,and maybe Shaq, we have to do this...

    Doc:  Ok, ok, well go for it..

    Danny: Are you gonna play Kristic, he may take a while to adjust but he can score right away....

    Doc: Of course I will play him...(wink, wink)

    Danny: Ok, Im gonna call them back now

    Fast forward to last night

    Danny:  Doc, what up with the lineups,,,I thought you said you would play Kristic?

    Doc: (sigh)  I did say that and I did play him, jeesh the guy started 15 games....I didnt think you meant in the playoffs, you know our starting five from last year cannot be beat...I mean our starting 4 with JON.  I cant play Kristic, he just dont get it...Baby will take his minutes.  Baby just needs to relax and play his game and we will be fine.  by the way, did you talk to Shaq tonight?
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Ever think where would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?

    CeltsSox,

    I am surprised you don't think that Doc and the boys want to win number 18 MORE, MUCH MORE than you and I do.  They are the ones with a reputation on the line and will be praised or criticized.....not you and me.  THEY have to take the heat. They get the hardware or get sent home.  You and I only have emotions.  They have emotions, pride, legacy, money, and everything else on the line.

    You Seem to think that because Doc won't play Krstic and Green during crunch time or because Doc plays a different lineup than YOU would play, that means he doesn't want to win and is making a bad decision.  I disagree, respectfully.   I think Doc has coached a championship, won coach of the year, played in the NBA, Coached all stars, coached division winners, and is MORE qualified than me (and you) to decide who to play and at what time.   So, its perfectly ok to disagree with him.  Its overboard, however, to say that he doesn't want to win or that he and the starters owe you something that they aren't delivering.  They just won two playoff games against a very game Knick team with two of the best offensive threats in the league!   Why do you think the entire NBA and sports world was so caught up in whether Carmelo would move and to where?   Its because he is DARNED GOOD!  The guy can flat out fill it up.  He is  diffference maker.  Give him credit.   But, like Lebron for 2 years and like Dwight Howard last year and like Kobe/Gasol in '08 - they lost to our team concept these first two games.  I'm proud of that and I say - yes, Doc COULD HAVE done this or he COULD have done that.....but what he did was win.    That's what I love.  

    As for Doc not believing they are qualified to play in the playoffs:

    JON got significant minutes and has delivered.  BBD got the minutes at the end for a specific reason (ability to double team).

    Green got as many minutes as he could play but got in foul trouble.

    Krstic got in the first game and flopped.  he doesn't deserve to play based on how he's performed.  He plays absolutely ZERO defense and he could not have made the offensive nor the defensive plays that KG made.  This is also why he started but sat at crunch time in OKC - he was behind Serge and behind Nick Collison.......and was their 3rd choice at center.   Danny didn't get any star here - please be aware of that. The guy has never won anything - no awards, no all stars, no championships, NOTHING.  He deserves very little because he plays scared.

    Sasha, Murphy, and Arroyo are castoffs.  They don't deserve to play and were only brought on to fill out the roster in cases of emergency and injury.

    I'm not saying Danny is all right or all wrong.  I'm not saying Doc is all right nor all wrong.  I'm just saying that the moves each of them made were made as THEY believed it was the best way to win.  Danny did his thing with the personnel.  Now Doc has to do his thing.  Right or wrong - if I'm Doc (and I've been an AAU coach and I've been a business exec and in each environment, I listened to my advisors but I made the final decision myself), I'm winning or losing doing it my way......because I have to live with the consequences.  I'm not doing it someone else's way because if I loose, I'll only question myself.

    Let's see how they do in the playoffs before trying to fry them.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Ever think where would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?

    In Response to Re: Ever think where would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?:
    CeltsSox, I am surprised you don't think that Doc and the boys want to win number 18 MORE, MUCH MORE than you and I do.  They are the ones with a reputation on the line and will be praised or criticized.....not you and me.  THEY have to take the heat. They get the hardware or get sent home.  You and I only have emotions.  They have emotions, pride, legacy, money, and everything else on the line. You Seem to think that because Doc won't play Krstic and Green during crunch time or because Doc plays a different lineup than YOU would play, that means he doesn't want to win and is making a bad decision.  I disagree, respectfully.   I think Doc has coached a championship, won coach of the year, played in the NBA, Coached all stars, coached division winners, and is MORE qualified than me (and you) to decide who to play and at what time.   So, its perfectly ok to disagree with him.  Its overboard, however, to say that he doesn't want to win or that he and the starters owe you something that they aren't delivering.  They just won two playoff games against a very game Knick team with two of the best offensive threats in the league!   Why do you think the entire NBA and sports world was so caught up in whether Carmelo would move and to where?   Its because he is DARNED GOOD!  The guy can flat out fill it up.  He is  diffference maker.  Give him credit.   But, like Lebron for 2 years and like Dwight Howard last year and like Kobe/Gasol in '08 - they lost to our team concept these first two games.  I'm proud of that and I say - yes, Doc COULD HAVE done this or he COULD have done that.....but what he did was win.    That's what I love.   As for Doc not believing they are qualified to play in the playoffs: JON got significant minutes and has delivered.  BBD got the minutes at the end for a specific reason (ability to double team). Green got as many minutes as he could play but got in foul trouble. Krstic got in the first game and flopped.  he doesn't deserve to play based on how he's performed.  He plays absolutely ZERO defense and he could not have made the offensive nor the defensive plays that KG made.  This is also why he started but sat at crunch time in OKC - he was behind Serge and behind Nick Collison.......and was their 3rd choice at center.   Danny didn't get any star here - please be aware of that. The guy has never won anything - no awards, no all stars, no championships, NOTHING.  He deserves very little because he plays scared. Sasha, Murphy, and Arroyo are castoffs.  They don't deserve to play and were only brought on to fill out the roster in cases of emergency and injury. I'm not saying Danny is all right or all wrong.  I'm not saying Doc is all right nor all wrong.  I'm just saying that the moves each of them made were made as THEY believed it was the best way to win.  Danny did his thing with the personnel.  Now Doc has to do his thing.  Right or wrong - if I'm Doc (and I've been an AAU coach and I've been a business exec and in each environment, I listened to my advisors but I made the final decision myself), I'm winning or losing doing it my way......because I have to live with the consequences.  I'm not doing it someone else's way because if I loose, I'll only question myself. Let's see how they do in the playoffs before trying to fry them.
    Posted by Celtsfan4life


    good post.  Lets see how they fair first.  You would think we are 0-2, but I understand peoples frustration.  Also if we dont go all the way....i wonder how people will bash Danny the same guy who made it possible for us to be relevant the last 4 years.  "Same thing make you laugh, make you cry....same thing" - Rodney Harrison
     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Ever think where we would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?

    I didn't think there was any question that they wouldn't be back after game 7.

    We lost the finals in game 2 when Artest kneed Ray bad in his leg, robbing him of shooting ability for the rest of the series, and when the refs didn't allow us to overcome during our 4th quarter run.

    Forget the joke that was game 7... we shoulda celebrtaed 18 at home in game 5.

    But there was never really any doubt we'd make 1 more run...
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from CeltsSox. Show CeltsSox's posts

    Re: Ever think where we would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?

    Celtsfan4life, obviously I wasn't clear in my post. I'm not saying Doc and the players "do not want to win", nor am I saying that Danny doesn't want to win. I'm also not saying that Doc should play who I believe he should play. However, I do believe that it makes no sense for the team to trade a big in Perk for two quality players in Kris and Jeff Green and then not give either one an opportunity to contribute. The same goes for siging Troy Murphy over Leon Powe if Troy is not going to be allowed to play. As far as JON, the C's were killed on the boards yesterday and were saved by KG and Paul at the end. The Knicks did not go small because they wanted to. They had no choice. JON was fabulous in Game #1 and then became a bench player in the second half of Game #2.

    I believe the trade and signings allowed the Celtics to become more balanced and talented. However, if a coach doesn't find a way to blend the talent that does not translate into the fact that he does not want to win. However, it can be argued that the coach and President of Operations are not united. In a case where Shaq cannot play and Doc is not going to use Kris at center and Jeff with reasonable minutes as a back up to Paul, then the Doc and Danny in my opinion did not use their "best efforts" as an executive team. Under these conditions the new trade and the one last year trading Eddie and Billy Walker for Nate, who pretty much sat on the bench, does not make much sense. Last year the Celtics could have used Eddie shooting and Billy Walker's toughness in Game #7.

    That's the great thing about sports fans, we can both love a team like the Celtics and disagree in how they can achieve our mutual goals. Hope to be proved wrong about Doc's "strategies" with some great playing and coaching in the next month or so.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Ever think where we would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?

    The real question was about DA not blowing it up in February.

    To the best of my knowledge we were in on Kevin Martin. In that deal it was Ray's exp contract vs. TMac's (Ray prob would have been bought out) and Baby vs. Carl Landry and maybe our pick. I dunno if our offer was better than Houston's, let's assume it wasn't.

    The deal I REALLY wanted to have happen was Andre Iguadala. It could have been Ray, Sheed, Scal and 1st rd picks in '10 and '12 for Iguodala and Dalembert. The deal saves Philly tons of cash and gets them two decent picks. We could have thrown in the rights to Semih as well.

    Ray gets bought and and re-joins us with tons of rest. Iggy is a guy who can guard LeBron, Wade and Kobe pretty well and run with Rondo. He isn't a great outside shooter but would always be on the court with Ray or Paul.

    Our playoff rotation is:

    C - Perk 24 mins, Dalembert 16m, KG 8 mins
    PF - KG 28 mins, Baby 20m
    SF - Pierce 36 mins, Iggy 12m
    SG - Ray 28 mins, Iggy 12m, TA 8m
    PG - Rondo 40 mins, Eddie 8m

    This offseason we'd have a healthy Perk, we'd have to use the MLE to keep Ray and we'd get DWest for the vet min. Maybe Shaq goes to OKC for the full MLE.
     
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    Re: Ever think where would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?

    In Response to Re: Ever think where would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?:
    If I am gonna die, i wanna use all my guns!  he better sit down with Danny, but I would think that convo already happened. It was in February, and Danny came into Docs office.. Danny : Hey, just got off the phone with OKC, they are willing to give us Kristic and Green for Perk and Nate Doc : Really.....(long pause)....so Marquis is really not gonna give it a go? Danny : No Doc, the guy isnt even cleared to run yet. Doc : Ok, you really sure you want to dump Perk, Shaq is still out. Danny : yeah, got no choice...Kristic can play..I know Def. JON is back,and maybe Shaq, we have to do this... Doc :  Ok, ok, well go for it.. Danny : Are you gonna play Kristic, he may take a while to adjust but he can score right away.... Doc : Of course I will play him...(wink, wink) Danny : Ok, Im gonna call them back now Fast forward to last night Danny :  Doc, what up with the lineups,,,I thought you said you would play Kristic? Doc : (sigh)  I did say that and I did play him, jeesh the guy started 15 games....I didnt think you meant in the playoffs, you know our starting five from last year cannot be beat...I mean our starting 4 with JON.  I cant play Kristic, he just dont get it...Baby will take his minutes.  Baby just needs to relax and play his game and we will be fine.  by the way, did you talk to Shaq tonight?
    Posted by JayShizzle45



    LOL! That is a great exchange and probably pretty close to how it went. I'm not sure how far we can go without Shaq.

    We just have to enjoy whatever we're getting right now. Ainge offered Perk a deal but Perk didn't give him a hometown discount so how much did Perk really want to be in Boston?? Ainge didn't just ship him off. I still wish it would've been BBD that he unloaded and not Perk. I'm sure he was playing eenie, meeny, miney, mo with Perk and BBD once he knew Quis wasn't coming back.

    Let's ride this thing out as best we can. Ainge saw a team be #1 in the East without Perk and tried to get 2 starters for him, he didn't expect it to tear up the chemistry. I can't blame him.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Ever think where we would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?

    In Response to Re: Ever think where we would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?:
    Celtsfan4life, obviously I wasn't clear in my post. I'm not saying Doc and the players "do not want to win", nor am I saying that Danny doesn't want to win. I'm also not saying that Doc should play who I believe he should play. However, I do believe that it makes no sense for the team to trade a big in Perk for two quality players in Kris and Jeff Green and then not give either one an opportunity to contribute. The same goes for siging Troy Murphy over Leon Powe if Troy is not going to be allowed to play. As far as JON, the C's were killed on the boards yesterday and were saved by KG and Paul at the end. The Knicks did not go small because they wanted to. They had no choice. JON was fabulous in Game #1 and then became a bench player in the second half of Game #2. I believe the trade and signings allowed the Celtics to become more balanced and talented. However, if a coach doesn't find a way to blend the talent that does not translate into the fact that he does not want to win. However, it can be argued that the coach and President of Operations are not united. In a case where Shaq cannot play and Doc is not going to use Kris at center and Jeff with reasonable minutes as a back up to Paul, then the Doc and Danny in my opinion did not use their "best efforts" as an executive team. Under these conditions the new trade and the one last year trading Eddie and Billy Walker for Nate, who pretty much sat on the bench, does not make much sense. Last year the Celtics could have used Eddie shooting and Billy Walker's toughness in Game #7. That's the great thing about sports fans, we can both love a team like the Celtics and disagree in how they can achieve our mutual goals. Hope to be proved wrong about Doc's "strategies" with some great playing and coaching in the next month or so.
    Posted by CeltsSox



    Ok.  Thanks for clarifying. I see your points.  I don't agree that Doc's not playing Green as I just see Green getting in foul trouble and that's what's limiting his minutes (5 fouls in 11 minutes is not good D and just gets you a seat on the bench).   I wish we had kept Eddie rather than Nate, too.  Ray would have a backup that Doc trusts and that we all know can shoot!  So, we agree there.  

    Maybe you're right.  Maybe Danny and Doc are not in sync.  I doubt it.  I suspect they talked over the risk and Doc said "I'll try to work them in, but if Krstic doesn't get the defense, I'm playing JON and BBD" and Danny knew that all along.  They communicate pretty well and i bet Doc told him up front that Krstic has to learn to play D on my team or he sits.

    I just don't see playing a player who's not productive, no matter what you traded him for.  And Krstic is simply not productive.  I bet he'll get another chance, but if he doesn't deliver, Doc will sit him.  Doc is a tough and brutally honest coach, no games played - they all say that about him.  


     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Ever think where we would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?

    And fyi, I don't think Murphy was ever brought in to play lots of minutes.  He's a back up to fill the roster in case someone was injured.  He ha a chance to show that his issue in NJ was just minutes.  He failed.  Couldn't hit a shot and looked as slow as i thought he would.   His fate was then sealed.  The experiment was over.  Playoff time and no time for experimenting any more.  No one plays the guys who are numbers 12 and 13 on the bench come playoff time.  Murphy is no different.  He didn't earn any minutes (and that's why I was NEVER excited about that guy).

    I know, CeltsSox, C's are frustrating.  But, have faith - they are the team we though they'd be other than Shaq.  We knew they'd be old and have to use experience, not athleticism......and that's what's happening.   I'm with you that Green can help in this area, but he has to learn to play D without fouling.  I hope he gets it soon.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from CeltsSox. Show CeltsSox's posts

    Re: Ever think where we would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?

    In Response to Re: Ever think where we would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?:
    In Response to Re: Ever think where we would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up? : Ok.  Thanks for clarifying. I see your points.  I don't agree that Doc's not playing Green as I just see Green getting in foul trouble and that's what's limiting his minutes (5 fouls in 11 minutes is not good D and just gets you a seat on the bench).   I wish we had kept Eddie rather than Nate, too.  Ray would have a backup that Doc trusts and that we all know can shoot!  So, we agree there.   Maybe you're right.  Maybe Danny and Doc are not in sync.  I doubt it.  I suspect they talked over the risk and Doc said "I'll try to work them in, but if Krstic doesn't get the defense, I'm playing JON and BBD" and Danny knew that all along.  They communicate pretty well and i bet Doc told him up front that Krstic has to learn to play D on my team or he sits. I just don't see playing a player who's not productive, no matter what you traded him for.  And Krstic is simply not productive.  I bet he'll get another chance, but if he doesn't deliver, Doc will sit him.  Doc is a tough and brutally honest coach, no games played - they all say that about him.  
    Posted by Celtsfan4life


    cfan4life, we're back on track now. In following the guys, probably too much for my own good, it sure seems to me that Danny did not consider Doc's thoughts and really his feelings with the trade. Danny allowed Phil Jackson to take a shot at Doc's statement that no one has beaten his starting five in a playoff series. It sure seems to me that Danny owed it to Doc to keep the starting group together and not allow Jackson to mouth off. With that said, I think Doc is probably mentally and emotioned burned out. The trade probably guaranteed that he will take some time away from the game. On the other hand, we're all in this together out here. Therefore, I'm hoping that Doc digs down deep and finds a way to use the available talent. Clearly this team, with or without Shaq, with some Celtics Pride and unity, has the talent to go all the way.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from CeltsSox. Show CeltsSox's posts

    Re: Ever think where we would be if Doc didnt return and the Big 3 were broken up?

    cfan4life, final comment. My point with Troy Murphy was that Danny could have mitigated the morale damage by moving Perk if he decided to bring Leon Powe back to the locker room. Danny could have brought back a fan favorite, a great human being, and a clear friend of Big 4. No offense to Troy, but it appears the signing was nothing more than an attempt to keep from going to the Heat. Since the Heat signed Bibby, who is contributing, they probably had no real interest in Troy. Oh well, as you say, we need to keep the faith!!!

     
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