Finally Doc Speaks Out

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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    They make millions....get over it!!!!  

    How many practices did they have post trade?  I was at the Celtics/Clippers game and saw how well both JG and Krstic played.  So what happened?  Did the Celtics just realize that Perk, Nate, Daniels, Harangody, and Erdan was gone and went into a funk?  They took Denver dayum near to the middle of the 4th quarter before fading due to a lack of players.
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    Wasn't Doc apart of that decision?  The Celtics record right after the trade want bad, so did the trade really affect them?  Did they realize two weeks later and go in a funk?  Krstic played well right out the gate and then something happened.  I'm not going to blame the playoff loss on the Perkins trade.  Plain and simple they were old and not as athletic as the Heat.  The Celtics really hurt themselves this season with losses to sub .500 teams.  They could have had home court.  But would that have really mattered against atheltic teams like the Bulls or Heat?
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    In Response to Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out:
    Wasn't Doc apart of that decision?  The Celtics record right after the trade want bad, so did the trade really affect them?  Did they realize two weeks later and go in a funk?  Krstic played well right out the gate and then something happened.  I'm not going to blame the playoff loss on the Perkins trade.  Plain and simple they were old and not as athletic as the Heat.  The Celtics really hurt themselves this season with losses to sub .500 teams.  They could have had home court.  But would that have really mattered against atheltic teams like the Bulls or Heat?
    Posted by jdm894g

    I agree that they were less athletic. They were also less intense. The alleged physical Celts do not put a body on people. That's how you negate a more physical player. You bump him to throw his timing and windup off. Larry Bird who was reputed to be unathletic almost never had a rebound taken from him, once he got those claws on it. He always made contact with his opponent. and pushed him away from the basket. Switching defense or not, the current Celts are soft rebounders. I sometimes think "I like the other team's style better. I wish my team played like that."
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    Nice post Fiercest.  Just read Doc's comments, I was gonna start a thread that said, "Guess Who Else Didn't Like The Perk Trade: Doc Rivers."  I think Doc's exactly right as far as the continuity and giving up their advantage over Chicago and Miami.  Sounds too like he isn't really into changing things much moving forward.  He said Green might be a starter in the future and has a chance to be a heck of a player.  Not exactly a ringing endorsement.  Sounds like Doc and Ainge don't really agree.  Green is basically Ainge's guy and Ainge seems to want Green in there sooner, like next year.  Doc's talking about "loyalty" and all that so I think we can expect Pierce, KG and Ray to be the starters next year...that might, unfortunately, give a boost to the Bob Ryan argument, that we fans can expect a slow decline...unless they can somehow add an impact player (who? how?).
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    You can still keep the starters, but increase minutes for the back ups..Green or BB dont have to start to contribute...
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    In Response to Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out:
    They make millions....get over it!!!!   How many practices did they have post trade?  I was at the Celtics/Clippers game and saw how well both JG and Krstic played.  So what happened?  Did the Celtics just realize that Perk, Nate, Daniels, Harangody, and Erdan was gone and went into a funk?  They took Denver dayum near to the middle of the 4th quarter before fading due to a lack of players.
    Posted by jdm894g


    No amount of money makes human beings any less human

    When you're in the middle of a season spending 95% of your time with your teammates, a large paycheck is just something that gets deposited into your money market account.  Meanwhile, the players with whom you're good friends are like family.

    Chemistry matters.  One would think that after this Boston sports decade where the Patriots' backerhood and the Red Sox' idiots (and the Celtics' ubuntu) teams won championships, that a Boston fan would have realized this by now

    Players aren't just numbers and stats and sabermetrics - only idiots like Dan Snyder think such things.
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    I think Doc is stating the obvious.  It's hard to lose a teammate first off, and to pretend the Perk trade didn't pall this team's spirit for a short time is wrong.  Then post trade, Doc had to integrate a whole bunch of pieces into the rotation to see what he had.  The whole thing was magnified when...well...Shaq acted his age on the court.  The trade was OK with a healthy Shaq.  Danny gambled and lost.  Bottom line, he made Doc's job that much harder by making a move that was arguably about the future more so than the present.  
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    In Response to Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out:
    I think Doc is stating the obvious.  It's hard to lose a teammate first off, and to pretend the Perk trade didn't pall this team's spirit for a short time is wrong.  Then post trade, Doc had to integrate a whole bunch of pieces into the rotation to see what he had.  The whole thing was magnified when...well...Shaq acted his age on the court.  The trade was OK with a healthy Shaq.  Danny gambled and lost.  Bottom line, he made Doc's job that much harder by making a move that was arguably about the future more so than the present.  
    Posted by CablesWyndBairn


    I agree.  That trade was predicated on a healthy Shaq down the stretch.  Didn't happen.  I don't know that by saying that the trade hurt without a healthy Shaq means that the team was not tired down the stretch.  They certainly looked it to me.  Rondo getting hurt essentially sealed the coffin. 

    Be interesting to see what this team looks like next year.  Very interesting indeed.
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    In Response to Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out:
    They make millions....get over it!!!!   How many practices did they have post trade?  I was at the Celtics/Clippers game and saw how well both JG and Krstic played.  So what happened?  Did the Celtics just realize that Perk, Nate, Daniels, Harangody, and Erdan was gone and went into a funk?  They took Denver dayum near to the middle of the 4th quarter before fading due to a lack of players.
    Posted by jdm894g

    Not quite seeing the relevance of your post citing one game a couple months ago.Maybe Doc knows his team better than you do.
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    In Response to Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out:
    You can still keep the starters, but increase minutes for the back ups..Green or BB dont have to start to contribute...
    Posted by Ortiz123

    They have to play a helluva lot better.
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    There's a lot of blame to go around.  There's also credit that has to go to Miami for stepping up against our C's!!

    In order of importance in my opinion:

    1. Our Big 3 are no longer as good as Miami's big 3 and we had a hard time getting what we wanted on offense and stopping them on defense.  It showed in turnovers, lack of good shots, and lack of rebounds.
    2. We played their game because we were missing the advantage at Center that Shaq would have provided.  We all fell in love with Shaq's performance but to rely on that 350lb, 39 yr old, often injured center was a BIG gamble by Danny and he lost that bet!
    3. In addition to Shaq's injuries, Rondo was injured critically, West was less than 100% (especially when we were fighting for best record late in the season), BBD was hurt/playing poorly/too focused on his offense, and Krstic fell apart after 2 weeks.   Our bench was supposed to be a strength against them and it was a weakness, instead.
    4.  Doc is right - we gave away our advantage.  Its not age and its not our Big 3. It was our TOTAL TEAM!  That means a Center, a bench, and our poise.  We lost them all.  Was Perk the only answer - NO.  Would Perk have helped - YES!  he plays D, rebounds, and fights underneath/is tremendously physical.  

    In the end, Danny made a bunch of moves that gave us a better long range future, but hurt Doc's ability to bring home a championship THIS YEAR.

    The future isn't so bad, though.  KG, Ray, and JON are all off the books at the end of 2012 and we have a coach that players like.  We could get a big name free agent.  Danny the gambler may just trade one of these guys to start the process this year.  Who knows.

    In the end, Danny brought us a lot of good.....and a lot of bad, including hurting Doc's ability to win it this year.  I think he owes Doc, the players, and the FANS!!
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    Interesting! Reports were that Doc turned down a prior trade but agreed to this one. I bet the other deal was Harden instead of Green. So it looks Ainge really gave him no choice that a move was going to be made no matter what or else he wouldn't be disagreeing with the trade now.

    I can't help but think Doc signing a new deal also included some final say in trades. He obviously couldn't veto the Perk Deal or he would've done so.
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    Jeff Green and Krstic are very good! Did you see JG's 3-Pointers? I say he's much better than Perkins. Doc Rivers, that trade was good.
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    Eventually, this trade will help us.  But as for the season that just ended, it hurt us.
    Having Perk would have helped us against Miami in a number of ways.  What with Rondo's injury, how much that would have helped us is anybody's guess.  But teams who've played together a long time do have an advantage over teams that have less experience.
    Glad Doc spoke his mind.
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    In Response to Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out:
    Eventually, this trade will help us.  But as for the season that just ended, it hurt us. Having Perk would have helped us against Miami in a number of ways.  What with Rondo's injury, how much that would have helped us is anybody's guess.  But teams who've played together a long time do have an advantage over teams that have less experience. Glad Doc spoke his mind.
    Posted by breaktime

    Good post. I agree that the Perk trade hurt us for this season, but Ainge did not want to pay Perk the big deal Perk wanted and got from OKC. Therefore Ainge got a good young player in Jeff Green, a solid back up center in Nenad and a future lottery pick from the Clips. It depends on how you look at the deal whether it was a good trade or not. I have mixed feelings either way. Perk would have helped during the Heat series as Shaq never got healthy. However, losing Perk during the summer with nothing in return would hurt. It's a tough call IMO.
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    If we won he would have said it was a great decision just like everyone else
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    That's right.....I'd be the second one next to Doc to say it was a good deal if we won.  But we didn't win so his decision/gamble didn't pay off.   

    As an executive in any company, you take the credit when your bold gamble works and you take the criticism when your gamble hurts the organization.  Life in the big city.
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    As much as Wade and LBJ broke down Celtics defenders Perkins would have fouled out.  Plus he it wasnt defense that cost the Celtics, it was offense!!!!folks speak on Perk as if he has a spot waiting for him in Hall of Fame.  Injuries and offense is what killed the Celtics in the Miami series.  Through in age as well.
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    Nice to hear from you Doc after signing a $35 mil contract. Now he feels compelled to slice DA up...  not a peep though until after that contract was executed.

    That said, theres some validity in what Doc says imo... but the real issue wasnt losing Perk... but having someone else of average ability giving us 20 mins at center... that was DA's big mistake.. counting on Shaq.. not dumping Perk (who in my opinion is subaverage on a good day)

    Also, DOcs best point was the trade occurring so deep into the season.. cant argue with that.. had to make things that much more difficult.

    However, had we kept Perk and gave back Green/Kristic... would have made no difference vs Miami imo... everything else being equal. Although we will never really know


     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    In Response to Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out:
    Eventually, this trade will help us.  But as for the season that just ended, it hurt us. Having Perk would have helped us against Miami in a number of ways.  What with Rondo's injury, how much that would have helped us is anybody's guess.  But teams who've played together a long time do have an advantage over teams that have less experience. Glad Doc spoke his mind.
    Posted by breaktime


    I also believe that having Perk could have helped, but I am not convinced that we would have beat Miami.  Although the team chemistry might have been just enough to help us to win more games against Miami or even advance.  It was obvious that this team starting losing games when team chemistry was disrupted after the trades. 
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    In Response to Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out:
    In Response to Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out : The Celts is like a brotherhood. When Perk got traded Doc and the players felt they lost one of their own. It's a normal reaction. After all, they're human, they also have feelings. I bet if the Lakers traded Andrew Bynum last February Kobe would just say it's a business and all we can do is move forward. That's a typical Kobe response.
    Posted by Fiercest34


    Sybil, that's a poor comparison. The Lakers wouldn't trade a player that they have so much invested in for a player(s) of unequal value. That's why a potential Dwight Howard trade is a much more likely scenario. And Mitch wouldn't be asking for Kobe's approval anyway.
     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    It was such an unprecedentedly big gamble, but I always said that we would not know if it was a good one until after the play-offs. Adding new parts to a custom made machine is always risky. If the Celtics had remained healthy, as projected by management, the Celtics might have won it all. However, the gamble proved to be a bad idea as Doc said.

     
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    Re: Finally Doc Speaks Out

    It was NO GARAUNTEE that they beat Miami w/ Perkins.  Plus when he was traded to OKC he missed a couple of more weeks due to injuries.  Come on, he wasn't going to be a difference maker.  

    So lets look it this way?  If Stoudamire and Billups were healthy would they have won?  The Celtics beat Miami three time during the season and I believe Perkins played in one of those, but wasnt a factor.  

    The Miami series was lost due to injuries, rebounds, turnovers and stagnant offense.  Perkins would only have helped in the non-injured department.

    I'm watching the OKC/Dallas series and Perkins isn't doing anything.  Tyson Chandellor is taking him to school.

    Dont get me wrong I liked Perkins for what he brought to the Celtics, but he was no Robert Parish or bill Russell.  KG and BBD didn't man up in the paint where they had clear advantages and Doc for not playing Krstic and calling plays for our bigs to post up!!!!  Thats why the series went the way it did.
     
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