Give Cleveland ANYTHING and ANYBODY! Just Get Embiid!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from wicksandrowe. Show wicksandrowe's posts

    Give Cleveland ANYTHING and ANYBODY! Just Get Embiid!

    Let me offer this take.


     


    We need a template - model, prototype, paradigm. You know, if you’re in ‘build-from-scratch’ mode, you can more or less design the kind of team you want to get to. Ainge did it when he concocted the idea to have Allen join Pierce and Rondo, then got Garnett to join those three. He and Rivers envisioned that these parts would play in a certain way.


     


    Philosophers say it’s an essence vs existence thing - the IDEA of a thing precedes the REALITY of it. Before you build a ‘chair’ there needs to be an idea of ‘chairness’ first. 


     


     


     


    I don’t know any philosophers who’ve put together an NBA team, but the same applies with a ‘team’ and ‘teamness.’  NBA teams have certain 'essences;' LAC - athletic  MEM - grinder  CHI - defense   OKC - two guys shoot    PHX - transition   GSW - 3-ball   CELTICS -  ????


     


    My own template begins with acquiring Embiid and then loading up with the smartest, best passing, moving, shooting players available and aiming for the San Antonio Spurs model of precision, IQ, and efficiency. Over the past 10 years, who’s been better?


     


    Wouldn't need great athletes (if you throw out Kawhi Leonard, there isn’t a so-called true “athlete” on the entire Spurs team) and 80& of the roster is international. 


     


    After Duncan, the others have been cobbled together by great scouting and fitness for a system of play. Even Parker and Ginobili were low draft picks.


     


    Embiid (if 100% healthy) looks as close to a Duncan-like player as there is on the horizon. Getting him by cleaning house, the idea for the kind of team would begin now and then proceed by putting the smartest, best passing, best shooting system players around him. 


    ***  I admit that this is probably more addition by subtraction for me.  I honestly don't think I can survive another season of watching Jeff Green, Brandon Bass and Avery Bradley kicking, punching, fumbling, stumbling, bobbling basketballs all the while with that near-comatose deer-in-the-headlights look.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Give Cleveland ANYTHING and ANYBODY! Just Get Embiid!

    And if and when Embiid becomes the next Greg Oden... What then?

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from wicksandrowe. Show wicksandrowe's posts

    Re: Give Cleveland ANYTHING and ANYBODY! Just Get Embiid!

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    And if and when Embiid becomes the next Greg Oden... What then?



    Wozzy,

    Agreed, that would be horrific.  But I did qualify by saying a 100% healthy Embiid.

    If it is determined that the fracture is symptomatic of a chronic bone or back condition, then the bet is off.

    The pursuit of a Spurs-like template would still be on, however, and in either case it would still call for a purging of ball-stoppers, bad hands, and low IQ.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Give Cleveland ANYTHING and ANYBODY! Just Get Embiid!

    I happen to agree with Ainge that there is no savior amongst this draft crop, including Joel.  I was almost relieved when we lost the chance to draft that high.  Outside of Parker the top of this draft could be a washout... Danny will find the best player available at 6.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mellymel3. Show mellymel3's posts

    Re: Give Cleveland ANYTHING and ANYBODY! Just Get Embiid!

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    I happen to agree with Ainge that there is no savior amongst this draft crop, including Joel.  I was almost relieved when we lost the chance to draft that high.  Outside of Parker the top of this draft could be a washout... Danny will find the best player available at 6.



    Have to agree with you on this one Woz...DA knows this collection of youngsters and knows there is no franchise guy...he's said that for the last 6 months, some very good ones, potential all-stars and starters, but no franchise transformative players.

    That being a given, DA must be given every chance to rebuild this team the way he sees fit. He has a good track record for the C's and there's no reason it cannot be done again. The MGT. has stated, directly and through DA, that the goal is a team that will be highly competitive for a sustained period, for a large number of years. That means careful building through the draft and veteran player acquisitions together.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrBoogiebone. Show DrBoogiebone's posts

    Re: Give Cleveland ANYTHING and ANYBODY! Just Get Embiid!

    In response to wozzy's comment:


    And if and when Embiid becomes the next Greg Oden... What then?




    I don't wish bad on anyone. But if Cleveland takes a chance on Embiid. Need I say more? Just out of spite for Cleveland. Lucky a** mutha *$#&$%......

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Give Cleveland ANYTHING and ANYBODY! Just Get Embiid!

    "And if and when Embiid becomes the next Greg Oden... What then?"

    It's a valid point. 

    But we have nothing Cleveland would want anyway on our junk roster and our lottery picks and abilities are nothing compared to theirs. 

    "I happen to agree with Ainge that there is no savior amongst this draft crop, including Joel. I was almost relieved when we lost the chance to draft that high. Outside of Parker the top of this draft could be a washout... Danny will find the best player available at 6."

    I think that's possible. My feeling is one of the top three, probably Parker, is a perennial all star. And I also think there is one more all star somewhere in the top ten, but where. 

    And, a couple more solid contributors. This kind of stuff is Ainge's strength so let's see what he does...

     

       
     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from vtfanofcs. Show vtfanofcs's posts

    Re: Give Cleveland ANYTHING and ANYBODY! Just Get Embiid!

    In response to Fiercy's comment:

    One thing's for sure, Ainge will not be able to top what he did in 2007, getting KG and Ray.

    A deal like that rarely happens.

     

    Us Celtic fans will have to learn to accept that it will take more than 2-3 years before the Celts become contenders again.



      Us Celtic fans root for wins.  You are a tanker. And when it comes to us, there's no you in that.

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from vtfanofcs. Show vtfanofcs's posts

    Re: Give Cleveland ANYTHING and ANYBODY! Just Get Embiid!

    In response to Fiercy's comment:


    In response to vtfanofcs' comment:



     


     


     


     


      Us Celtic fans root for wins.  You are a tanker. And when it comes to us, there's no you in that.


     


     




    Really?


     


     


    The Celts could have still made the playoffs with KG and Pierce this season.


     


    So why did Ainge trade KG and Pierce for Wallace's bad contract and multiple picks?


     


     


     


    I'm a tanker?


     


    You really think I was the one who traded KG and Pierce to the Nets?


     


     


     


    Ainge wanted to tank.


     


    I just agreed with the idea.





      Nice try. Tanking is for losers.  And your lied up garbage about KG and Pierce is manure.  You rooted for the Celtics to lose all year long.  Loserism is not the what the Celtics are about.  17 banners say otherwise.

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from vtfanofcs. Show vtfanofcs's posts

    Re: Give Cleveland ANYTHING and ANYBODY! Just Get Embiid!

    In response to Fiercy's comment:


    In response to vtfanofcs' comment:



     


     


    Nice try. Tanking is for losers.


     


     




    Celts tanked in 2007 and the Celts end up winning a championship in 2008.


     


     


    Go figure.





      You keep saying they tanked in 2006-07 and that won a championship. Too bad you're saying so doesn't make it true.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from vtfanofcs. Show vtfanofcs's posts

    Re: Give Cleveland ANYTHING and ANYBODY! Just Get Embiid!

    In response to Fiercy's comment:

    In response to vtfanofcs' comment:

     

     

    Nice try. Tanking is for losers.  And your lied up garbage about KG and Pierce is manure.  You rooted for the Celtics to lose all year long.  Loserism is not the what the Celtics are about.  17 banners say otherwise.

     

     



    The NBA is not the Olympics.

     

     

    In the NBA, sometimes you have to take a step back to move 2 steps forward.

     

     

     

    It's a fact the Celts already tanked twice in the past, in 1997 and 2007.

     

     

     

    You're not being realistic.

     

    There are still 13 teams in the NBA that have not won a championship.

     

    Trying to win every game, even if it leads to mediocrity, is stupid.



    Which teams haven't won championships.

    The Cavaliers.  They've tanked a ton.

    The T'Wolves.  They've tanked a ton.

    Hornets, Pelicans tank.

    Clippers, they've tanked a ton.

    Raptors, plenty of lottery picks

    Orlando Tankers,  how many #1's have they got.

    Nets, they've tanked.

    Utah. They haven't won but they've put in some good years and the refs took some away from them.  They've been better than the others because they've tried.

    If Sacramento is one, they've tanked hard for many years.  They're still in the lottery.

    Denver, they haven't won.

     

    Tanking leads to tanking.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from CeltsFanInNH. Show CeltsFanInNH's posts

    Re: Give Cleveland ANYTHING and ANYBODY! Just Get Embiid!

    In response to vtfanofcs' comment:

    In response to Fiercy's comment:

     

     

    In response to vtfanofcs' comment:

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

      Us Celtic fans root for wins.  You are a tanker. And when it comes to us, there's no you in that.

     

     

     

     

     

     



    Really?

     

     

     

     

     

     

    The Celts could have still made the playoffs with KG and Pierce this season.

     

     

     

    So why did Ainge trade KG and Pierce for Wallace's bad contract and multiple picks?

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    I'm a tanker?

     

     

     

    You really think I was the one who traded KG and Pierce to the Nets?

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Ainge wanted to tank.

     

     

     

    I just agreed with the idea.

     




      Nice try. Tanking is for losers.  And your lied up garbage about KG and Pierce is manure.  You rooted for the Celtics to lose all year long.  Loserism is not the what the Celtics are about.  17 banners say otherwise.



    OK

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Give Cleveland ANYTHING and ANYBODY! Just Get Embiid!

    In response to vtfanofcs' comment:

    You keep saying they tanked in 2006-07 and that won a championship. Too bad you're saying so doesn't make it true.



    They tanked in 2006-07, you'll not find another post on this forum where Fierce agrees with me but they tanked that year and did so again this year.  

    "Tanking" is probably a bad word for it, "rebuilding" is a better term.  The NBA has set it up this way, teams can only comply and do what they need to to.

    Teams can't convince players to tank, all they can control is who plays, teams tank by playing their huge contract guys and their young tradable players in the hopes of inflating their value.  If the Celtics played their best lineup this year they would have won more games but not enough to win a ring, they would have played themselves out of the lottery.  The NBA is a business.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from wicksandrowe. Show wicksandrowe's posts

    Re: Give Cleveland ANYTHING and ANYBODY! Just Get Embiid!

    MEMO TO:     fiercy and vtfanofcs

    Thanks for yet again hi-jacking a post into a puerile exercise in "got-you-last."

    If you truly want to throw sand at one another, why not do it in your own sand box?

    SUGGESTION: Start an ongoing post on tanking and then go there 10-20 times a day and snark it out. 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from vtfanofcs. Show vtfanofcs's posts

    Re: Give Cleveland ANYTHING and ANYBODY! Just Get Embiid!

      I don't disagree with your ideal of the Spurs.  They are fantastic to watch.  Duncan was fun to watch in college-a winner that knows how to play the game.

      While the Spurs have drafted players over the years that fit their team, there is a bit of happenstance to the deal as well.  You want Embiid.  He may embody the qualities you'd like to build around.  What if the C's can't get him.  They better be flexible enough to adapt to the players they can get.

      You mention Memphis and their grinding.  They are outstanding defensively.  Perhaps, I am wrong, but I don't remember Mike Conley or Zach Randolph having a defensive players reputation before joining the Grizz.

      Teams are lauded after they win.  Some teams have an identity and don't win championships.  Nuggets of the 80's.

      Some teams win without much of an identity except the kudos they receive after the fact for the things they do well.  ie. the Heat.  To say that they win because they are a good defensive team would be a stretch.  They have Lebron, DWade and Bosh.  They bludgeon people with skill and officiating.  The other guys fill the space around them.  When it comes to crunch time they are stars.

      Maybe you could tell me about the Lakers identity in the 2000's. They had Shaq, a force of nature.  Kobe Bryant(I don't want to say anything positive about him), and they spent alot of money and the refs put them past the Blazers and the Kings for two fake championships.  The Lakers of the late 2000's had two tall guys and Kobe and a lot of money and a lot of officiating(20 some odd free throws in the fourth quarter.  Phil Jackson and his silly triangle doesn't cut it.  Without Shaq and what not, triangle and rectangle don't amount to championships.

     

      I am not disputing the idea of building a team with a style of play.  Smart and unselfish are good things.  Those things work, they can be instituted by plan, but.........

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from wicksandrowe. Show wicksandrowe's posts

    Re: Give Cleveland ANYTHING and ANYBODY! Just Get Embiid!

    In response to vtfanofcs' comment:


      I don't disagree with your ideal of the Spurs.  They are fantastic to watch.  Duncan was fun to watch in college-a winner that knows how to play the game.


      While the Spurs have drafted players over the years that fit their team, there is a bit of happenstance to the deal as well.  You want Embiid.  He may embody the qualities you'd like to build around.  What if the C's can't get him.  They better be flexible enough to adapt to the players they can get.


      You mention Memphis and their grinding.  They are outstanding defensively.  Perhaps, I am wrong, but I don't remember Mike Conley or Zach Randolph having a defensive players reputation before joining the Grizz.


      Teams are lauded after they win.  Some teams have an identity and don't win championships.  Nuggets of the 80's.


      Some teams win without much of an identity except the kudos they receive after the fact for the things they do well.  ie. the Heat.  To say that they win because they are a good defensive team would be a stretch.  They have Lebron, DWade and Bosh.  They bludgeon people with skill and officiating.  The other guys fill the space around them.  When it comes to crunch time they are stars.


      Maybe you could tell me about the Lakers identity in the 2000's. They had Shaq, a force of nature.  Kobe Bryant(I don't want to say anything positive about him), and they spent alot of money and the refs put them past the Blazers and the Kings for two fake championships.  The Lakers of the late 2000's had two tall guys and Kobe and a lot of money and a lot of officiating(20 some odd free throws in the fourth quarter.  Phil Jackson and his silly triangle doesn't cut it.  Without Shaq and what not, triangle and rectangle don't amount to championships.


     


      I am not disputing the idea of building a team with a style of play.  Smart and unselfish are good things.  Those things work, they can be instituted by plan, but.........




    Thanks for the considered response. You make very valid points. But you wouldn't be building a team's identity on the skill set of one player if, in fact, you can't acquire that player.


    The risk involved is in losing assets in acquiring the player and then he doesn't pan out. I believe that Embiid will become a game-changing player, an anchor-player, and that he is worth throwing the kitchen sink at. 


    But if you can't get him, so be it, and you proceed by acquiring players who will eventually be able to play the style of basketball you envision. It's a lock that Stevens has a pretty defined way he'd like to see his teams to play. Let's just say it won't be like hat the ship-of-fools roster the WIZ put together a few years back - Arenas, Crittenden, Young, McGee, Crawford, Wall, Blatche. Now that team had an identity.


    Sure, procuring force-of-nature players like Shaq, Howard, Kobe, James is a proven way to do it, but how many of those are there, anyway? I lean towards the build through the draft method, securing long-term value if/when Cleveland won't deal for Embiid.


    I would select Gordon as athletic transition player, offensive cutter and ball mover, and perimeter defensive stopper going forward.  I would draft a proven shooter/scorer at SG/SF. If proven veterans become available add them, but with the goal in mind that whoever is acquired can actually play basketball rather than guys who have one or two basketball skills and no idea whatsoever of how to play.  

     
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