How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from texasCELTICfan. Show texasCELTICfan's posts

    How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.

    Yes, I know, Lawrence Frank comes to Boston as a respected defensive mind, but that doesn't mean the loss of TT won't be felt in the upcoming campaign.

    TT's intensity was only rivaled by his defensive acumen.  Because this is true, I just don't believe a seemless defensive transition from TT to Frank can be realistic expectation.  I want to be wrong here, but history says coaching changes often are coupled with a learning curve.

    Is the continued presence of KG, Rondo, etc. enough to overcome any learning curve the C's might undergo with Frank?  I certainly hope so...but I'm seeking some reassurance from the excellent posters on this board!  
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Waynestarr. Show Waynestarr's posts

    Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.

    Great post.


    I just can't call it.


    I say we may struggle out the gate defensively, as the guys try to learn a new defensive philosophy, but we'll just never know.


    It could be a total disaster, but let's hope for the best. I miss Thib's team defensive concept. That's what made the Celtics the past 3 years one of the best teams in the league, with a defense that is highly respected NBA wide.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rams4ever. Show Rams4ever's posts

    Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.

    In Response to How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.:
    [QUOTE] I certainly hope so...but I'm seeking some reassurance from the excellent posters on this board!  
    Posted by texasCELTICfan[/QUOTE]

    Great post, TCELTIC or TCELT.

    Great point about the learning curve with all new coaches, too. As we examine the Celtics advancement to the 2010 NBA Finals, we see that there was a learning curve even under Thibodeau! And the players knew him. As the key celtics players began to get more healthy over the course of the 2009-2010 season, they clicked the defensive switch down the stretch...and their collective defensive intensity began to escalate and the range of their defensive coverage expanded. The celtics players ability to react defensively became remarkable...their collective defensive reaction almost became impulsive on the opponent's half court.
     
    That kind of defensive achievement may look like magic...but it is scary to think what had to happen on the practice court to make that defensive cohesion a game court reality.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from texasCELTICfan. Show texasCELTICfan's posts

    Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.

    Thank you for the kudos, Wanyestarr.

    Just a cursory review of Frank's tenure in NJ should encourage C's fans.  On two different occasions his teams finished in the top 6 in overall defense--and his teams, of course, had nary the defensive talent the C's currently possess.

    I am more encouraged that Frank's teams actually played defense, for we know no greater challenge exists for an NBA head coach than getting one's squad to d-up on the hardwood.  If this fact validates Frank as a quality defensive mind maybe the C's transition from TT to Frank will be seemless, indeed.   If not, as you suggest, the 2010-2011 season could turn into a "total disaster."

    I'm willing to give Frank, because of his NJ history, the benefit of the doubt--but that doesn't mean this Texas C's fan isn't worried. 

    Do you find Frank's history in NJ "encouraging" as well, Waynestarr?
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from jdm894g. Show jdm894g's posts

    Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.

    They will be okay.  Rondo and Kg will not forget how to defend just because Tibs is gone.  Eveb as good as Tibs was, the CELTICS went through a lot of lapses last season with poor rotations, over/under helping on pick and rolls, gambling, and just plain being out of position.  No need to worry.  If they want to win another banner it will come from DEFENSE!!!
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from texasCELTICfan. Show texasCELTICfan's posts

    Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.

    In Response to Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011. As the key celtics players began to get more healthy over the course of the 2009-2010 season, they clicked the defensive switch down the stretch...and their collective defensive intensity began to escalate and the range of their defensive coverage expanded. The celtics players ability to react defensively became remarkable...their collective defensive reaction almost became impulsive on the opponent's half court.   That kind of defensive achievement may look like magic...but it is scary to think what had to happen on the practice court to make that defensive cohesion a game court reality.
    Posted by Rams4ever[/QUOTE]

    The only thing that intrigues me more than your handle  (Are you a Midwest C's fan?) is your intimate knowledge of the intricacies of the C's defensive prowess.

    You are spot on, Rams4ever, when you suggest that the impetus for the C's defensive excellence originated on the "practice court."  Only C's insiders know, and I am obviously not in that number, how much TT contributed to the "defensive cohesion"  the C's displayed in the postseason.  TT was undeniably a significant contributor, but how does one balance out TT's contributions with the C's overall willingness to play defense as part of their on-the-court identity?

    The C's, for three years running, have hung their collective hats on playing ferocious defense, and I don't see their modus operandi changing here because their defensive core remains intact.  

    Do you think, Rams4ever, that KG and Rondo's presence alone is enough for the C's to continue their stellar defensive play?  Or do you fear, much like Waynestarr, that TT's departure could precipatate a "disastrous" 2010-2011 campaign for the C's? 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from SuperNtrain. Show SuperNtrain's posts

    Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.

    In Response to How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.:
    [QUOTE]Yes, I know, Lawrence Frank comes to Boston as a respected defensive mind, but that doesn't mean the loss of TT won't be felt in the upcoming campaign. TT's intensity was only rivaled by his defensive acumen.  Because this is true, I just don't believe a seemless defensive transition from TT to Frank can be realistic expectation.  I want to be wrong here, but history says coaching changes often are coupled with a learning curve. Is the continued presence of KG, Rondo, etc. enough to overcome any learning curve the C's might undergo with Frank?  I certainly hope so...but I'm seeking some reassurance from the excellent posters on this board!  
    Posted by texasCELTICfan[/QUOTE]
    TT was a good defensive coach, but he does not have a great personality when it comes to interacting with the players. One reason why the C's never offered him the job to take over in the event Doc retired, and I agree with the decision. Lawrence Frank is from the same mould in terms of X's and O's, but he interacts well with the players. If Doc quits after this upcoming season, Frank would be a very good replacement since he has good rapport with his players. He is a good combination of blackboard and player interaction.

        IMO Frank is a bench upgrade over TT and would be a good successor to Doc. He was a great coach in NJ, he was literally in a "dead end job" at the time............
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rams4ever. Show Rams4ever's posts

    Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.

    In Response to Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.:
    [QUOTE]IMO Frank is a bench upgrade over TT and would be a good successor to Doc. He was a great coach in NJ, he was literally in a "dead end job" at the time............
    Posted by SuperNtrain[/QUOTE]

    Wow...what an opinion.

    TT does NOT interact well with players?

    So, by extension, are you predicting a less than successful stint for TT in Chitown???
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rams4ever. Show Rams4ever's posts

    Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.

    In Response to Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011. : The only thing that intrigues me more than your handle  (Are you a Midwest C's fan?) is your intimate knowledge of the intricacies of the C's defensive prowess. [/QUOTE]

    I am a Lakers and Rams fan living in Saint Louis, but I am not from southern California.

    As a child when I saw Magic as a rookie sub at center for Kareem and score 42 points on television to defeat Dr.J's Sixers, on the heals of defeating Bird for the national title, I decided that the Lakers were the best, deepest and most versatile basketball team ever in existence - and I was correct. It is shocking how wise children can be at times - HA!

    But as the Celts defense got better and better in 2010 as far as rotations? I started to notice on television that the Celtics players were consulting TT more than Rivers on the sidelines, during breaks etc. What the Celtics did in the ECF of 2010 to Howard from inside and Lewis and Peitrus on the outside? I'll keep it real and say I did not even think it possible...
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from SuperNtrain. Show SuperNtrain's posts

    Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.

    In Response to Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011. : Wow...what an opinion. TT does NOT interact well with players? So, by extension, are you predicting a less than successful stint for TT in Chitown???
    Posted by Rams4ever[/QUOTE] Not really an opinion, pretty much a fact. Considering I sit 14 rows behind the C's bench during home games, you can hear alot from the bench and get a good intimate feeling on how the coaches and players interact with each other. I can tell you for a fact that the players in general were tuning out TT's barking during many\most of the games during the regular season. Even in the playoffs you could see him rubbing the wrong way with some of the players(mostly Perkins,TA,Pierce, Rondo on occasion as well).

      As to how well Tibs does in Chicago is anyone's guess, being a younger team, they may respond well actually(Tibs has a mentality that is better suited towards HS and College players IMO)to begin with, but if things go awry and he gets canned within the next year or 2, it wouldnt surprise me. Probably why it has taken him so long to get a head coaching job. IMO he is or should be a career assistant coach.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from RajonRondowski. Show RajonRondowski's posts

    Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.

    Likewise, great thread and great question.

    I hope Frank subscribes to the notion that if it ain't broke don't fix it.

    I think Thibs left a template for success both in the players minds and with the coaching staff.  It's all there on film too, and he just has to get the guys too implement it in games.  For the entire season!  Remember that awful 2nd half stretch of no D?
     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.

    I was very concerned about the loss of TT, but Doc's returning gives me confidence he has a handle on what needs to be done.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BCSP. Show BCSP's posts

    Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.

    In complete agreement with R. Rondowski "if it aint broke, don't fix it"

    With the above stated, three things are required to mold a great defensive team: good coaching, including schemes and game adjustments, adequate preparation, and hungry and capable defenders.

    The C's lost their scheme maker, but still have his schemes. They also lost a very good defender, but may have replaced him in the draft (AB).

    What the C's haven't lost is KG and his endless hunger to excel at the defensive end. A hunger that is contagious to each an every one of his team mates. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from jerrycole. Show jerrycole's posts

    Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.

    Having an assistant coach who is good at coaching defense is only part of the coaching equation.  You also need a head coach who totally buys into the "defense first" philosophy, as Doc does.  It's the head coach who decides who plays, who starts, who gets the minutes - not the assistant coach.  If the head coach makes his selections on the basis of offensive skills, there is only so much that the assistant for defense can do.

    Doc puts defense first.  That's not going to change.  That's why the Celtics will continue to be an excellent defensive team.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from binbones. Show binbones's posts

    Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.

    C'S will be ok w/o TT...players listen to DOC.....even PP said TT needed to lighten up on the "coaching".....

    TT seems to be much like the dude at orlando , who is  always wound up...i hope TT puts that damn clip board down...i do  wish him well , , the dude certainly paid his dues...yet i am concerned as to why it took so long for him to get a head coaching position....

    hey my focus is on DOC playing the bench significant minutes this year so as to rest the first unit for the play-offs & to help the bench get quality experience...no more bull-spittt excuses about rookie this & rookie that...if they're getting paid , play dey-aaazzzizzz.......BEAT L. A. ....BEAT L. A. ....BEAT L. A. .......
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rams4ever. Show Rams4ever's posts

    Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.

    I hear the majority of Celtics fans here saying that the loss of TT will not be an issue for the defense. I am a little surprised at the minimizing of TT's past effect. The majority here may be right in the end, but I dont think I would be so confident.

    Take for example the Barry/Winter/Jackson golden Triangle that MJ(among others) made so globally famous. If Tex Winter had been taken out of the Bulls equation, for whatever reason after just 3 seasons, would Phil Jackson have been able to keep the evolution and the nuances of the triangle offense flowing? The answer has been yes over the long haul, with the success of Gasol & Kobe, esp in 2009 - and the slow integration of Artest into the offense on the 2010 world championship team. 

    However, if Phil Jackson had not all of those years with Tex Winter as his right hand man? I dont know that the golden triangle offense would have necessarily become Jackson's trademark as well as Tex Winter's trademark, who learned the offense under Barry as a player in the 1940s.

    So the question is august 2007 to june 2010 long enough for the players to have internalized TT's teachings? Or will TT's departure and Larry Frank's arrival actually improve the Celtic's overall team defense? Only time will tell - but I just dont see how you can count on that potential improvement by the subtraction of TT. No doubt there will be an adjustment period at the very least. TT did not interact with Celtics players all that well? How did that 2010 Celtics defense get so darn good then?

    Losing Tony Allen, when it comes down to matching up one-on-one with a Kobe Bryant in the NBA Finals or even the reg season for 48 minutes, has got to hurt.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.

    In Response to Re: How does Thibodeau's departure impact the C's in 2010-2011.:
    [QUOTE]I was very concerned about the loss of TT, but Doc's returning gives me confidence he has a handle on what needs to be done.
    Posted by concord27[/QUOTE]

    I agree and it would have been difficult for the Celtics to have two new coaches if Doc had not decided to return. 
     
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