If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

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    If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    why was the first prime time playoff game shown in 1969? (Celtics/Knicks) ).....and why was the Lakers/Sixers series (1980) shown on tape delay...?
     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    I guess there was a post on this subject....not sure what it was....I think I have the trolls on "ignore" ....also think I have figured out the teen (and pre-teen) trolls....also on ignore......there are so few posts to go through.....nice!
     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    In Response to If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...:
    [QUOTE]why was the first prime time playoff game shown in 1969? (Celtics/Knicks) ).....and why was the Lakers/Sixers series (1980) shown on tape delay...?
    Posted by Duke4[/QUOTE]

    Duke
    For me the "modern NBA" is the result of a majority take over by black players in the late 70's.The speed, quickness and pure athletic ability of the black players doomed most American  white players to a secondary role in the league. The show time ability of this new breed of players  increased popularity in the game. Attendance climbed. Enter national T.V.  The black takeover was brought about by the end of segregation in all major  Southern colleges in the early 70's and the introduction of nba Teams to the deep south.
    SeemsToMe
     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    Rating were bad from 77 to the early 80's. They were on tape delay from 79-81. In 82 they went back to showing it live. I remember watching the Celtics beat the Sixers in 81 in game 6 in a Philly bar and most people knew the outcome but some people didn't. It was bizarre but funny. The day games were live. When the Celtics beat the Lakers in 69 that was a Monday night and it was live but it started like 10:30, 11 our time. I was 11 and didn't find out the Celts had won another title until the next morning. Another reason was that May was sweeps month for CBS(who did the NBA then) and they knew the NBA would not do as well. From 75 to 79 the finals ended in June or very close. For 80 and 81 they ended in May. Then back to June in 82.The NCAA tourney in basketball didn't go on a network(NBC) until 1969. Basketball didn't draw, plain and simple.
     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    It's funny how the 'reliance' on the whole 'modern' NBA comment makes our '72 championship null and void. In those peoples eyes Duke.

    NBA, the modern NBA started with the shot clock. The game has evolved from that time. But the fundamentals haven't changed that dramatically at all. The shot clock changed the game and there's hasn't been a change like it since. You could say that it's a different sport.

    There's probably a generation of two year olds out there now who will come to think of the 90's as being the birth of the 'modern' NBA. And writing off anything that happened pre-Jordan.


     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    In Response to Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...:
    [QUOTE]It's funny how the 'reliance' on the whole 'modern' NBA comment makes our '72 championship null and void. In those peoples eyes Duke. NBA, the modern NBA started with the shot clock. The game has evolved from that time. But the fundamentals haven't changed that dramatically at all. The shot clock changed the game and there's hasn't been a change like it since. You could say that it's a different sport. There's probably a generation of two year olds out there now who will come to think of the 90's as being the birth of the 'modern' NBA. And writing off anything that happened pre-Jordan.
    Posted by RUWorthy[/QUOTE]

    It's funny that no one except an old Duke and an Aussie lass think that the shot clock defined the "modern NBA". What's next? the modern NCAA was defined by its shot clock in the 1980s too?

    Check out the many references of the "modern NBA" on the web. Duke, if you don't know how to Google, just ask.


     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    Good posts all.......I will leave this subset of the larger discussion as it is.....we all have our opinions....that won't change.....as far as the black athletes in the late '70's.....that is somewhat true....but the league was loaded with great black players in the '60's and early '70's.....I could put up a huge list of names....but that's been done...I will point out one guy who was a dynamic player, and that was Gus Johnson, who I believe may have been the first guy to tear the basket away from the backboard...I took a small sampling of rosters to look at this a little more in-depth....the league rosters in the 1965/66 season....players listed on each roster followed by the number of black players:

    Lakers 11    (5)
    Celtics 12    (7)
    Hawks 15    (8)
    Royals 14    (6)
    Bullets 16    (6)
    Sixers  13    (7)

    That's right.....48% of the league was black.....and the majority of these black players were stars in the league....

    Modern era...? As our Aussie friend points out....the shot clock era...basketball as we know it today....the first great black player....? ....probably Maurice Stokes back in the early '50's.....if you want to go back to the early '50's you will see a game that had a team win 18-17 (outscored their opponent 3-1 in the 4th quarter) and a game that went 6 overtimes where, incredibly, only one shot was taken by either team in each of those overtimes...I don't think of that era as basketball the way we see it played today....or the way it was played that night in '69 when I watched the Celtics win in the early morning hours....   






     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    In Response to Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...:
    [QUOTE]Good posts all.......I will leave this subset of the larger discussion as it is.....we all have our opinions....that won't change.....as far as the black athletes in the late '70's.....that is somewhat true....but the league was loaded with great black players in the '60's and early '70's.....I could put up a huge list of names....but that's been done...I will point out one guy who was a dynamic player, and that was Gus Johnson, who I believe may have been the first guy to tear the basket away from the backboard...I took a small sampling of rosters to look at this a little more in-depth....the league rosters in the 1965/66 season....players listed on each roster followed by the number of black players: Lakers 11    (5) Celtics 12    (7) Hawks 15    (8) Royals 14    (6) Bullets 16    (6) Sixers  13    (7) That's right.....48% of the league was black.....and the majority of these black players were stars in the league.... Modern era...? As our Aussie friend points out....the shot clock era...basketball as we know it today....the first great black player....? ....probably Maurice Stokes back in the early '50's.....if you want to go back to the early '50's you will see a game that had a team win 18-17 (outscored their opponent 3-1 in the 4th quarter) and a game that went 6 overtimes where, incredibly, only one shot was taken by either team in each of those overtimes...I don't think of that era as basketball the way we see it played today....or the way it was played that night in '69 when I watched the Celtics win in the early morning hours....   
    Posted by Duke4[/QUOTE]

    I am sure neither statistics nor information literacy is your strong suit.

    In 1960, when the Celtics won their 3rd championship, the NBA had less than 10% African Americans.

    http://ilanderyouth.com/news-articles/african-american-heroes-broke-color-barrier

    n 1964, only 15% when the Celtics have won 8 of their championships:

    http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=WVIGQ7WGdp8C&pg=PA223&lpg=PA223&dq=NBA+1960s+%22black+player%22+percentage&source=bl&ots=74BwO9ZnGh&sig=RO1dEmNRPTIVufHqQeps5o97T0Y&hl=zh-TW&ei=PH7YTa-uLo3YuAOE0LWkBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false

     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    .....actually, according to Basketball Reference.com the league was closer to 20% black in 1960.....by 1965....it was around 48%......my point is that one of the posters cited the late '70's as the time period when blacks were entering the league.....as I showed, it was really in the mid '60's.....you know, during the Celtics' incredible run of 11 titles (12 trips) in 13 years?......now looking at your Laker titles of the early '50's before the shot clock era..? ....well they did call it basketball....but it sure did change overnight....Mikan couldn't play the game any longer and there went the Laker dynasty....
     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    why don't we just all agree to forget MLB history....Ruth & Co....Walter Johnson, Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner...none of it has any historic relevance....since the modern age began with Jackie Robinson entering the league....all that other stuff is irrelevant huh....?
     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    In Response to Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...:
    [QUOTE].....actually, according to Basketball Reference.com the league was closer to 20% black in 1960.....by 1965....it was around 48%......my point is that one of the posters cited the late '70's as the time period when blacks were entering the league.....as I showed, it was really in the mid '60's.....you know, during the Celtics' incredible run of 11 titles (12 trips) in 13 years?......now looking at your Laker titles of the early '50's before the shot clock era..? ....well they did call it basketball....but it sure did change overnight....Mikan couldn't play the game any longer and there went the Laker dynasty....
    Posted by Duke4[/QUOTE]
    Duke
    What I actually said was "a MAJORITY takeover by Black players in the  late 70's". And here are some numbers to support my opinion.
     This Black superiority is most evident  in basketball, at those positions that rely to a great extent on speed and quickness.  These  qualities are most likely found in players 6'7" or less. Allowing for 3 players per team I determined the top players in total points scored per year. This resulted in the following numbers.

    Example:
    1956-- 8 teams X 3 players =24 players. Of the top 24 league scorers those that were 6'7" or less broke down on a color basis as follows 
    17 were 6'7" or less, 16 white 1 black     white 94 %
          
    1962--27 players,  6'7" or less 18, White 11, Black 7,   white 61%
    1968--42    "             "         29,   "      15,   "    14,      "   52%
    1973--51     "             "         39,   "      15    "    24      "    38%
    1979--66    "              "         41,    "     4     "    37      "     10%
    1985--69    "              "         37,    "     1     "     36      "    3%
    1995--87    "             "          53,    "     3     "     49      "    6%
    2009--90    "             "          43     "     0     "     40      "    0%
    Note: 1995- 1 international player under 6'8"
            2009- 3       "              "        "      "
     SeemsToMe 
     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    interesting theory "seems"......and I wasn't targetting you.....just wanted to point out that by the mid '60's the game was changing with all of the black talent....and you're correct, it seems that that continued for a very long time....still, some of the greatest black talent was seen in the NBA from the late '50's through the early '70's
    .......look at the talent...

    Bill Russell
    Elgin Baylor
    Oscar Robertson
    Elvin Hayes
    Sam Jones
    Lew Alcindor
    Wes Unseld
    Willis Reed

    ....just a handful of greats that played during the Celtic run....Jerry West led a group of great white talent as well......the NBA was a great league by 1960...
     
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    In Response to Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...:
    [QUOTE]interesting theory "seems"......and I wasn't targetting you.....just wanted to point out that by the mid '60's the game was changing with all of the black talent....andy you're correct, it seems that that continued for a very long time....still, some of the greatest black talent was seen in the NBA from the late '50's through the early '70's .......look at the talent... Bill Russell Elgin Baylor Oscar Robertson Elvin Hayes Sam Jones Lew Alcindor Wes Unseld Willis Reed ....just a handful of greats that played during the Celtic run....Jerry West led a group of great white talent as well......the NBA was a great league by 1960...
    Posted by Duke4[/QUOTE]
    Duke
    I want to make it perfectly clear that I have always been a Celtic fan. The Celtics of the Russell years were the teams that I remember best. So many great memories. Many great Black players like you point out.
       But it has gone from a white dominated league in  Russell's 1st year (1956) to a league that in Russell's final year (1968) was just about split 50-50. By 1979 (Birds) 1st year it was totally dominated by Blacks and has continued to be right to the present with the international players now exceeding the white Americans as the 2nd most talented group.
     Your a great poster Duke. Keep them coming.
    SeemsToMe
     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    seems, I feel the same way.....I enjoy your posts....and I have admitted more than once that I was a Laker fan as a kid....I got into the Celts around age 12....and never looked back...but I rooted for the Lakers as well....right up until they got Wilt....I had to draw the line because of Russ....I didn't really develop the "hatred" until the Bird/Magic era when a few of my Laker buddies harassed me incessantly....but I NEVER lost respect for the great Laker tradition....and I still am impressed just as I am with the Yankee tradition (a team I detest)....it's really too bad that this subject has spawned so many bad feelings....the two best and the greatest rivalry....that sums it up in the long run...right my friend?
     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    In Response to Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...:
    [QUOTE]seems, I feel the same way.....I enjoy your posts....and I have admitted more than once that I was a Laker fan as a kid....I got into the Celts around age 12....and never looked back...but I rooted for the Lakers as well....right up until they got Wilt....I had to draw the line because of Russ....I didn't really develop the "hatred" until the Bird/Magic era when a few of my Laker buddies harassed me incessant....but I NEVER lost respect for the great Laker tradition....and I still am impressed just as I am with the Yankee tradition (a team I detest)....it's really too bad that this subject has spawned so many bad feelings....the two best and the greatest rivalry....that sums it up in the long run...right my friend?
    Posted by Duke4[/QUOTE]
    Duke

      My home is only 25 miles or so from downtown Boston, so during the basketball season I'm on the  same page as all the other Celtic fans, but during the baseball season I must put up with mucho grief. You see Duke- Im a Yankee fan!  Switched to the Yanks in 1947. As you can guess, I lived in sports heaven during the 40's 50's 60's and 70's. Life as a Celtic and Yankee fan was good.

       SeemsToMe
     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    holy cow (as Phil would say).....man, you are even older than me (I thought I might've been the "old timer" since Sam went and started his forum).....then I defer to you my friend!! ....you certainly lived the good life during the golden era.....I take my hat off to you!!!!! ...as you know, I am a huge Celtic fan......also a lifelong Dodger and RedSox fan....along with the Rams....that said, I have huge respect for the Yankees....also the Lakers....and many other teams....sometimes I get my dander up with young fans coming on the boards with all their trash talk...alas, even I get caught up in it from time to time....but it's really all in good fun...sports fans talking sports.....I really love it...I am having a glass of wine as we "talk"....I raise my glass to you buddy....!!!
     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    In Response to Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...:
    [QUOTE]holy cow (as Phil would say).....man, you are even older than me (I thought I might've been the "old timer" since Sam went and started his forum).....then I defer to you my friend!! ....you certainly lived the good life during the golden era.....I take my hat off to you!!!!! ...as you know, I am a huge Celtic fan......also a lifelong Dodger and RedSox fan....along with the Rams....that said, I have huge respect for the Yankees....also the Lakers....and many other teams....sometimes I get my dander up with young fans coming on the boards with all their trash talk...alas, even I get caught up in it from time to time....but it's really all in good fun...sports fans talking sports.....I really love it...I am having a glass of wine as we "talk"....I raise my glass to you buddy....!!!
    Posted by Duke4[/QUOTE]
    Duke
    Many thanks Duke. Hit 79 on 4-15-32.

    I don't post that often- The trash talk turns me off. Its an exercise in futility when one gets involved in a journey to no where.  My hobby is statistical analysis of the differences between basketball generations and its not to often that this subject comes up. I spend quite a bit of time each day researching basketball data. Keeps my mind active (I think).
    SeemsToMe
     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    well, I am truly in awe my friend......as you approach 80, I approach 61....I am just a kid....so who am I to argue right...?   You have earned the right to post your thoughts and more importantly.....we need to respect all that you bring to this forum.....you have my full attention pal....
     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    In Response to Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...:
    [QUOTE]well, I am truly in awe my friend......as you approach 80, I approach 61....I am just a kid....so who am I to argue right...?   You have earned the right to post your thoughts and more importantly.....we need to respect all that you bring to this forum.....you have my full attention pal....
    Posted by Duke4[/QUOTE]
    Duke
    All that age brings to the table is perhaps a different perspective.
      Have a good night.

    SeemsToMe
     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    In Response to Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...:
    [QUOTE]It's funny how the 'reliance' on the whole 'modern' NBA comment makes our '72 championship null and void. In those peoples eyes Duke. NBA, the modern NBA started with the shot clock. The game has evolved from that time. But the fundamentals haven't changed that dramatically at all. The shot clock changed the game and there's hasn't been a change like it since. You could say that it's a different sport. There's probably a generation of two year olds out there now who will come to think of the 90's as being the birth of the 'modern' NBA. And writing off anything that happened pre-Jordan.
    Posted by RUWorthy[/QUOTE]

    All this from someone who stated on this forum that Kareem won 3 titles!!!!

    No cred, you fail!

    RUWorth(less)
     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    In Response to Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...:
    [QUOTE]why don't we just all agree to forget MLB history....Ruth & Co....Walter Johnson, Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner...none of it has any historic relevance....since the modern age began with Jackie Robinson entering the league....all that other stuff is irrelevant huh....?
    Posted by Duke4[/QUOTE]
    And why only MLB? Don't you know the #1 league in the US is  the NFL?

    Quick, without checking the reference, why don't you tell us which team has won the most championships in the NFL?

    I mean, you use MLB, I can always counter with the NFL and tell me how many people care about the ancient history of the NFL, as well as  identify the team with the most NFL championship, AND HOW MANY!!!
     
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    Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...

    In Response to Re: If the "modern NBA" started with the merger...:
    [QUOTE]interesting theory "seems"......and I wasn't targetting you.....just wanted to point out that by the mid '60's the game was changing with all of the black talent....and you're correct, it seems that that continued for a very long time....still, some of the greatest black talent was seen in the NBA from the late '50's through the early '70's .......look at the talent... Bill Russell Elgin Baylor Oscar Robertson Elvin Hayes Sam Jones Lew Alcindor Wes Unseld Willis Reed ....just a handful of greats that played during the Celtic run....Jerry West led a group of great white talent as well......the NBA was a great league by 1960...
    Posted by Duke4[/QUOTE]

    1) You really have nerve to say that. Hayes, Alcindor and Unseld weren't there. Unseld was rookie of the year (and MVP) in 1969; Hayes was also a rookie that year. Alcindor entered the league in November 1969. By 1960? they were still in junior high.

    2) The talent you keep mentioning was Russell, Oscar, Sam Jones and Elgin, as if these 4 players constitute the majority of the NBA jobs. In 1960, only 10% of the players were black (that was about 10 players in a league of 8 teams of ~100 players). It's obvious that it was a time of a very limited talent pool as most of the African American talents were ignored. Imagine the league right now has only 10% blacks (~40 players). Besides the obvious stars, where were the Tyson Chandlers, the Gerald Wallaces, the George Hills, the Jameer Nelsons, the Trevor Arizors? Even the fringe stars won't make it.

    3) International talents. You can keep citing Vujovic, I can keep countering with Dirk, Manu, Scola, the Gasols, etc.

    4) By mid-1960s, the Celtics have already won 7-8 championships. In other words, they built the majority of the dynasty on a very limited league talent pool that gave you only the players hang around your mouth all the time: Russell, Oscar, Wilt, Sam Jones, Elgin, but definitely no Ben Gordon, Jason Terry, Andrew Bynum, Andre Miller, Mo Williams, nor Dirk, Manu, Pau, Marc, Parker, etc. The current league "watered down"?

    There must be a new meaning of "watered down"...




     

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