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If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.

If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/17/2011 3:23 AM EST
just posted this on another discussion and realized how real it was. any other one of our starting 5 we would have a harder than heck chance of getting back and winning it, but without Rondo it plummets to zero. kinda like losing Brady on the Patriots. Cassel (Robinson) can do a servicable job filling in but in the end..theres no chance to be great. 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/17/2011 5:17 AM EST
In Response to If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.:just posted this on another discussion and realized how real it was. any other one of our starting 5 we would have a harder than heck chance of getting back and winning it, but without Rondo it plummets to zero. kinda like losing Brady on the Patriots. Cassel (Robinson) can do a servicable job filling in but in the end..theres no chance to be great.
Posted by JamezHill24Hopefully, Rondo will stay healthy. With him, I think, the Celtics are the best team. I figure Rondo's overall game is in the A to A+ range. Off.= B Def.= A PG= A
Nate is a good overall PG, but he's no Rondo. The C's would still have a slight chance with Nate to win the title in my estimation. But I'm not an expert analyst. 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/17/2011 5:55 AM EST
I really like Rondo. Everybody (especialy Ray) benefits from his play. How about Delonte when he gets back? I would love to see how he runs the point. He may be able to spell Rondo some valuable minutes. 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/17/2011 6:42 AM EST
Did you watch the Lakers game in Boston? The Lakers' stragtegy was to play 17 feet off him.
When the other team's gameplan is to ignore you, you are not an elite player.
No doubt about it, Rondo has helped this team win games. But the idea that this team would be unable to win a title without Rondo is nonsense. There are plenty of times where Rondo disappears because he can't hit a jumper or a free throw.
How did he do in the Finals last year? Nice player but he has some pretty huge holes in his game. Comparing his importance to the Celtics to Brady's with the Pats is quite a stretch. If I were going to make a Patriots analogy I would call him the Celtics' Wes Welker or Kevin Faulk/Woodhead.
Let's not get carried away. I seem to remember the Celtics doing pretty well when he was injured this year. I know, it's not the playoffs. But that should tell you something. 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/17/2011 7:35 AM EST
In Response to Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.:I really like Rondo. Everybody (especialy Ray) benefits from his play. How about Delonte when he gets back? I would love to see how he runs the point. He may be able to spell Rondo some valuable minutes.
Posted by OneNation
Without Rondos play, Ray would probably average about 6 fewer pts per game. It would be harder without Rondo, but not impossible, just as it would be with the Big Three being absent. If we have Delonte you may be surprised how well he would fit into the starting lineup. We could actually see Dudders theory of how anyone could fill his role. 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/17/2011 7:49 AM EST
Without Rondo, Ray, Pierce and KG may average about the same ppg. But they would do it far less efficiently and the team wouldn't be nearly so effective. 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/17/2011 10:20 AM EST
In Response to If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.:just posted this on another discussion and realized how real it was. any other one of our starting 5 we would have a harder than heck chance of getting back and winning it, but without Rondo it plummets to zero. kinda like losing Brady on the Patriots. Cassel (Robinson) can do a servicable job filling in but in the end..theres no chance to be great.
Posted by JamezHill24
Hey thanks for posting the obvious. Twice. 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/17/2011 1:13 PM EST
Without Andrew Bynum the Lakers would have 0% chance of winning the Championship this year. Bynum's a very good player, sometimes dominant when he is healthy, and the Lakers don't have a good backup. I like Rondo a lot; but your argument seems to me more about lack of a decent backup player than about the individual player's absolute value to the team. By the way, with the Celtics we've already seen that they can't bring home the Championship without KG (2009) and even Perk (games 6 and 7 last year). At least at point guard the Celtics have a back up or two (when Delonte gets well), as the team is currently constructed what happens if CPP goes down? Who starts at the 3? 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/17/2011 1:35 PM EST
In Response to If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.:just posted this on another discussion and realized how real it was. any other one of our starting 5 we would have a harder than heck chance of getting back and winning it, but without Rondo it plummets to zero. kinda like losing Brady on the Patriots. Cassel (Robinson) can do a servicable job filling in but in the end..theres no chance to be great.
Posted by JamezHill24

Zero percent? No way. Maybe our chances go down to 50%, but even that is idle speculation. We would still have a good chance at the title.
With players like Ray and Paul, who can both handle the ball, and Delonte coming back and Nate and Wafer off the bench we'd do alright.
Doc and this team can adjust. 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/17/2011 1:43 PM EST
Other John Wooden quotes:
"The main ingredient of stardom is the rest of the team."
"You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one.""Don't measure yourself by what you have accomplished, but by what you should have accomplished with your ability."

Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/17/2011 2:22 PM EST
I'm of the opnion that KG is the only irreaplacable Celtic, although it would hurt if we lose any of the Big 4. 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/17/2011 11:35 PM EST
df2, your assertion that Rondo can't hit a jump shot is flat out WRONG. This season he is hitting his Js at a rate of 45.3%. That's the same as DRose and only a few points behind CPaul and DWilliams. (See 82games.com)
You asked "how did he do in the Finals last year." Well, for starters, he had a triple double (game 2) and missed another (game six) by 2 rebounds. Overall, despite the myth of Kobe' effectiveness, Kobe wasn't even able to slow Rondo down. Rondo's overall producton was identical to his regular season average.
Also, you asserted that "there are plenty of times that Rondo disappears because he can't hit a jump shot or a FT". For your information, Rondo's crunch time production is appreciably better even than his glittering average performance. In "crunch time", on a per minute basis, Rondo shoots more, takes more jump shots, still makes his shots at a 50% rate, has more assists and steals and fewer turnovers. Not exactly a case of "disappearing".
The above responses to your assertions are all FACTS, not some biased observers opinion based on what he "sees".
Keep trying, though. Eventually you might stumble over an actual fact. As the old saying goes "Even a stopped clock is right twice a day." Your record so far, however, seems to invalidate that old saying. 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/18/2011 3:33 PM EST
jerryCole,
hoopdata.com tells us a different and IMO more comprehensive story than 82games.com. go to
http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Derrick%20Rose
and
http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Rajon%20Rondo
and compare the players. you can use the per game, per 40 min, or totals breakdown. i used the latter to determine rose is indeed the more prolific and higher percentage jumpshooter, particularly from 1015 ft and from 3 pt territory.
unlike 82games, the hoopsdata stats are current and include attempts and makes. i can't speak to clutch performance or any of the other players you reference, but based on rondo and rose, there are enough statistical
discrepancies between the two sites that i would not hang my hat on 82games as any sort of final word. 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/19/2011 8:42 PM EST
In Response to Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.:jerryCole, hoopdata.com tells us a different and IMO more comprehensive story than 82games.com. go to http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Derrick%20Rose and http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Rajon%20Rondo and compare the players. you can use the per game, per 40 min, or totals breakdown. i used the latter to determine rose is indeed the more prolific and higher percentage jumpshooter, particularly from 1015 ft and from 3 pt territory. unlike 82games, the hoopsdata stats are current and include attempts and makes. i can't speak to clutch performance or any of the other players you reference, but based on rondo and rose, there are enough statistical discrepancies between the two sites that i would not hang my hat on 82games as any sort of final word.
Posted by BaileyPowerose has made a quantum leap in his 3pt shooting this season. noone's arguing that rondo is better in that area.however, 1015 ft is not a jumpshot in the traditional sense (unless you're posting up, which neither of them do). mostly they'd be runners/floaters/lobs/teardrops etc. rondo excelled in this area last season, and in the <10 ft category, but has not utilised this part of his game this season.looking at the crucial 1623 ft range, the elbow jumpers etc that everybody wants rondo to take and make, rondo shoots 41% to rose 38%, and in spite of the games missed has already made nearly as many as he did all last seasonthe rose 46%/rondo 45% stat from 82 games comes from grouping all the categories of jumpshot, and using effective fg%, which means 3pters are worth 50% morediscrepancies? actually just different ways of analysing the same data 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/19/2011 10:03 PM EST
Without Rondo's defense, triple doubles, and execution on the fly, the Celtics would not be as consistant night in and out. Can they still win the title/ Absolutely, depending on whe they get in the trade for him. We have enough depth to survive it. But I would not want to see it happen.. 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/19/2011 11:23 PM EST
Couldn't disagree more with the original title of this thread. Without Rondo, we'd use someone else to set up the shooters. The top key to this team is KG and the second key is Doc. They make this team play the way it does. Add Paul's all around play and Ray's shooting + overall team D and we have a chance. Substitute West for Rondo and we won't have the same team, but we'd rely on the Big 3 to do more (and we'd just be different because West could shoot).We would not be as favored, but having NO chance (0%) is WAY overstated. 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/20/2011 4:47 AM EST
so ur telling me theres other pg out there (outside steve nash) that have the sight, intelligence, savvy and skills to pass the ball around like rondo does? name a few for me please. 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/20/2011 9:20 AM EST
In Response to Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.:In Response to Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title. : rose has made a quantum leap in his 3pt shooting this season. noone's arguing that rondo is better in that area. however, 1015 ft is not a jumpshot in the traditional sense (unless you're posting up, which neither of them do). mostly they'd be runners/floaters/lobs/teardrops etc. rondo excelled in this area last season, and in the <10 ft category, but has not utilised this part of his game this season. looking at the crucial 1623 ft range, the elbow jumpers etc that everybody wants rondo to take and make, rondo shoots 41% to rose 38%, and in spite of the games missed has already made nearly as many as he did all last season the rose 46%/rondo 45% stat from 82 games comes from grouping all the categories of jumpshot, and using effective fg%, which means 3pters are worth 50% more discrepancies? actually just different ways of analysing the same data
Posted by tehn00b
very encouraging; what is your source? 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/20/2011 11:27 AM EST
In Response to Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.:Did you watch the Lakers game in Boston? The Lakers' stragtegy was to play 17 feet off him. When the other team's gameplan is to ignore you, you are not an elite player. No doubt about it, Rondo has helped this team win games. But the idea that this team would be unable to win a title without Rondo is nonsense. There are plenty of times where Rondo disappears because he can't hit a jumper or a free throw. How did he do in the Finals last year? Nice player but he has some pretty huge holes in his game. Comparing his importance to the Celtics to Brady's with the Pats is quite a stretch. If I were going to make a Patriots analogy I would call him the Celtics' Wes Welker or Kevin Faulk/Woodhead. Let's not get carried away. I seem to remember the Celtics doing pretty well when he was injured this year. I know, it's not the playoffs. But that should tell you something.
Posted by df2
Comparing Rondo to Brady is accurate because they are both the quarterbacks on their team, and both play a very large role in whether they win or lose. If the Celtics lose Rondo there is no one to orchestrate the offense, his play allows Ray, Paul and Garnett to play as one. Who does that if Rondo doesn't? Nate? Come on!
Maybe for a few minutes but not for the whole game. He is Irreplaceable!! 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/20/2011 11:49 AM EST
In Response to Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.:so ur telling me theres other pg out there (outside steve nash) that have the sight, intelligence, savvy and skills to pass the ball around like rondo does? name a few for me please.
Posted by JamezHill24No, I'm telling you that Rondo isn't the only star on this team and the other stars would step up and do more without him. Pierce, Ray, Garnett, BBD, and others are not to be undersold. Rondo DOES NOT make them a star. They were stars before him and can be great players without him. He makes their life easier, but without him, they know how to play and with a lesser point guard like West, they would still be good. Will we be as good without Rondo, no. But, will we pick up other things if he's not there (shooting, free throws, defense on bigger point guards like West can provide)....YES!Rondo is great. For this team, his passing is great. But, without him, life goes on and Garnett, Ray, Paul and others step up more (and Rondo's replacement would provide talents that Rndo doesn't). So, we'd change but we'd still be a great team capable of winning a championship.I say the only player on the Celts who cannot be replaced is Garnett, not Rondo. 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/20/2011 6:17 PM EST
In Response to Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.:In Response to Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title. : very encouraging; what is your source?
Posted by futbalI also used hoopdata: http://hoopdata.com/, but compared it with 82 games: http://www.82games.com/http://www.basketballreference.com/ is also useful 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/20/2011 10:05 PM EST
In Response to Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.:
In Response to Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title. : rose has made a quantum leap in his 3pt shooting this season. noone's arguing that rondo is better in that area. however, 1015 ft is not a jumpshot in the traditional sense (unless you're posting up, which neither of them do). mostly they'd be runners/floaters/lobs/teardrops etc. rondo excelled in this area last season, and in the <10 ft category, but has not utilised this part of his game this season. looking at the crucial 1623 ft range, the elbow jumpers etc that everybody wants rondo to take and make, rondo shoots 41% to rose 38%, and in spite of the games missed has already made nearly as many as he did all last season the rose 46%/rondo 45% stat from 82 games comes from grouping all the categories of jumpshot, and using effective fg%, which means 3pters are worth 50% more discrepancies? actually just different ways of analysing the same data
Posted by tehn00b
you are correct, tehn00b. it is all in the interpretation. plus the presentation.my problem w/ 82games.com in this discussion is the month old (and counting) data they're using, their lack of attempts and makes totals, and their year old clutch statistics.
if we add the 3 point category (w/ it's effective %) to the 1623 feet category to define our jumpshooting category, we see that rose does jumpshoot at 45%. but don't we also see that rondo is jumpshooting at 42%, rather than 45% ? perhaps rondo fell off 3% since jan 19, a month ago. this strikes me as an aforementioned weakness of 82games  dated information. regardless, rondo appears to be jumpshooting at a lesser percentage than rose while taking 66 percent fewer shots. we don't see this w/ 82games, as they choose not to include makes and attempts totals.
also, if we're going to spotlight rondo's1623 feet increase this season, we need to additionally mention the large decreases this season compared to last season in attempts AND efficiency when rondo shoots <10 feet as well as 1015 feet. the drastic decrease in attempts in these categories serves to magnify the large decreases in FG percentage in these categories. this information is pertinent in a discussion of improvement in rondo's shooting, and is lost on us  yet again  at 82games because of stated omission.
82games last updated their clutch statistics 4/16/2010. they should not portray year old data as current data.
finally, i realize this is a tedious discussion. rondo has been my favorite nba player since 2008. i marvel at the numerous excellent aspects of his game. but while rondo has made some nice strides in his jumpshooting, his overall shooting continues to be a weakness. and criticism of rondo's shooting by his detractors continues to be valid. IMO.

Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/21/2011 12:50 AM EST
In Response to Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.:In Response to Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title. : you are correct, tehn00b. it is all in the interpretation. plus the presentation. my problem w/ 82games.com is this discussion is the month old (and counting) data they're using, their lack of attempts and makes totals, and their year old clutch statistics. if we add the 3 point category (w/ it's effective %) to the 1623 feet category to define our jumpshooting category, we see that rose does jumpshoot at 45%. but don't we also see that rondo is jumpshooting at 42%, rather than 45% ? perhaps rondo fell off 3% since jan 19, a month ago. this strikes me as an aforementioned weakness of 82games  dated information. regardless, rondo appears to be jumpshooting at a lesser percentage than rose while taking 66 percent fewer shots. we don't see this w/ 82games, as they choose not to include makes and attempts totals. also, if we're going to spotlight rondo's1623 feet increase this season, we need to additionally mention the large decreases this season compared to last season in attempts AND efficiency when rondo shoots <10 feet as well as 1015 feet. the drastic decrease in attempts in these categories serves to magnify the large decreases in FG percentage in these categories. this information is pertinent in a discussion of improvement in rondo's shooting, and is lost on us  yet again  at 82games because of stated omission. 82games last updated their clutch statistics 4/16/2010. jerryCole should not portray year old data as current data. finally, i realize this is a tedious discussion. rondo has been my favorite nba player since 2008. i marvel at the numerous excellent aspects of his game. but while rondo has made some nice strides in his jumpshooting, his overall shooting continues to be a weakness. and criticism of rondo's shooting by his detractors continues to be valid. IMO.
Posted by BaileyPoweI agree that 82 games has some annoying flaws, but the data is valuable and I'm happy to wait a month for it.as for the 3pt shooting, doc has repeatedly said on record that he'd much rather rondo improve his mid range shot. I'm sure it comes as no surprise that rose shoots a lot more than rondoI can actually see a silver lining in rondo's drop off in the 15 feet and under shots (excluding shots at the rim). If you practice a variety of shots from that range, you'll find that they're very elusive shots to master, and you have to shoot a lot, especially in game situations, to be effective. hoopdata backs this up: across his career, the more rondo shoots from this range, the more effective he is. this is a very encouraging sign looking forward.the 4/16/2010 date for the clutch statistics must be a typo on their part, as it's clearly showing stats from this season (it has a separate page for last season). I presume they update it at the same time as their other statistics, so about a month old againI actually don't mind these sorts of discussions (I'm a bit of a math geek). rondo's jumpshot is very much still a work in progress, but he's improving, and long may he continue to do so 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/21/2011 4:06 PM EST
In Response to Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.:Did you watch the Lakers game in Boston? The Lakers' stragtegy was to play 17 feet off him. When the other team's gameplan is to ignore you, you are not an elite player. No doubt about it, Rondo has helped this team win games. But the idea that this team would be unable to win a title without Rondo is nonsense. There are plenty of times where Rondo disappears because he can't hit a jumper or a free throw. How did he do in the Finals last year? Nice player but he has some pretty huge holes in his game. Comparing his importance to the Celtics to Brady's with the Pats is quite a stretch. If I were going to make a Patriots analogy I would call him the Celtics' Wes Welker or Kevin Faulk/Woodhead. Let's not get carried away. I seem to remember the Celtics doing pretty well when he was injured this year. I know, it's not the playoffs. But that should tell you something.
Posted by df2
Agree completely  if Delonte West is healthy the Cs lose nothing with him at the point. Imagine if the Lakers used the same strategy on West. He would be standing there making 3s, making jumpers, making midrange jumpers, getting to the rim and getting to the line and making 85% of them  not the record breaking 26% Rondo hoisted last year in the finals.
As Cedric Maxwell said "no offense to Rondo but the ball movement is better without Rondo"
As Marc Jackson said in the recent Cs Lakers game after Rondo picked up two quick fouls and Nate came into the game "this will provide a much more difficult task for the Lakers defense because they will actually have to guard Robinson"
Coach K  "we cannot afford to have players on the floor who cannot shoot"
Doc Rivers  "Rondo's inability to shoot really hurt us in the playoffs".....
There is always the debate on this site about whether Rondo is the best point guard in the league, etc. There were 5 point guards in the allstar game last night and Rondo was the 5th best. So let's end all the debate nonsense. 
Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.
posted at 2/21/2011 4:09 PM EST
In Response to Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title.:In Response to Re: If we lose Rondo we have 0% chance of winning a title. : Without Rondos play, Ray would probably average about 6 fewer pts per game. It would be harder without Rondo, but not impossible, just as it would be with the Big Three being absent. If we have Delonte you may be surprised how well he would fit into the starting lineup. We could actually see Dudders theory of how anyone could fill his role.
Posted by OneOnOne
I have never said ANYONE could fill his role. I think we will see Delonte West running the team in the 4th quarter of any tight game.
There were 5 point guards in the allstar game last night, Rondo was the 5th best.