Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    "In another post, i said i had mistakenly left the chief off, so i put him in front of Antoine and Pierce.

     If you want Ainge above Walker on your list thats fine with me, but not on my list.
     
     Sir Charles Barkley said PP was not a top 10 Celtic, so i figure i have him about right. Nothing wrong with being a top 15 Celtic great."

    Re: Respect

    posted at 3/9/2010 9:50 AM EST
    www.boston.com/community/persona.html?UID=3567a792c5f5109ca211f62f3c1b2406&plckUserId=3567a792c5f5109ca211f62f3c1b2406">
    Posts: 1304
    First: 2/12/2006
    Last: 1/23/2011
    In Response to Re: Respect:
    Its insulting to see Antoine Walkers name and not see Robert Parrish above him. Even Danny Ainge goes above Walekr and if I felt like thinking a bit more, Im sure I can come up with many more names.
    Posted by Karllost


     In another post, i said i had mistakenly left the chief off, so i put him in front of Antoine and Pierce.

     If you want Ainge above Walker on your list thats fine with me, but not on my list.
     
     Sir Charles Barkley said PP was not a top 10 Celtic, so i figure i have him about right. Nothing wrong with being a top 15 Celtic great.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from mondomara. Show mondomara's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    I'll give Walker this: when they made the playoffs, and beat many teams with stifling team defense in the 4th quarter, you could see Walker in the huddle exhorting his teammates.  The guy actually showed me that he cared.  Does that make him a Celtic great?  Not in my book.  Caring and putting out is what you're getting paid for (although try telling that to many of the players of the last 10 yeras).  He wouldn't be on the list of greatest Clippers, let alone a team with the history of this team.  He was a product of the NBA of the time.  Every team needs a poster boy and Walker was our for a time.  Means nothing.  The greats play with grace, passion and show some class.  That wiggle was anything but. 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from jdm894g. Show jdm894g's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    Toine is not even in the discussion when it comes to great Celtics.  No ring, no consideration.  Plain and simple.  Let the banners do the talking.  You dont get your number retired for being a good player on a bad team.  Pierce is on his way to getting his number in the rafters.  One more ring will move him up the list of Celtics great. 

    AGAIN...NO RING....THE CONVO ENDS!!!!!!!!!!
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    Toine is in the news again because he's trying to make an NBA come back by playing in the D-League.  Toine had his best year as a Celtic in 2001-02 when the Celtics almost made it to the Finals.  My question is, did helping the Celtics make it to the Eastern Conference Finals in 2002 enough to merit Toine as being one of the great players in Celtic history?
    Posted by P34


    Antoine was a very good player who could've been great, but he's not one of the all time greats.  Just imagine how much better Walker would've been if he eschewed some of those ill-advised 3-pointers in favor of getting his hands dirty under the glass.  He was one of the better offensive rebounders around and he insisted on being a mediocre outside threat.  Anyone who ranks him ahead of Pierce needs to have his/her head examined, or just cannot grasp how consistent of a player Pierce has been for more than a decade while Antoine, despite all of his accomplishments, was a frustrating player to watch.  
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    In Response to Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? : Antoine was a very good player who could've been great, but he's not one of the all time greats.  Just imagine how much better Walker would've been if he eschewed some of those ill-advised 3-pointers in favor of getting his hands dirty under the glass.  He was one of the better offensive rebounders around and he insisted on being a mediocre outside threat.  Anyone who ranks him ahead of Pierce needs to have his/her head examined, or just cannot grasp how consistent of a player Pierce has been for more than a decade while Antoine, despite all of his accomplishments, was a frustrating player to watch.  
    Posted by CablesWyndBairn


    Totally agree!
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    Toine is in the news again because he's trying to make an NBA come back by playing in the D-League.  Toine had his best year as a Celtic in 2001-02 when the Celtics almost made it to the Finals.  My question is, did helping the Celtics make it to the Eastern Conference Finals in 2002 enough to merit Toine as being one of the great players in Celtic history?
    Posted by P34


    Which of the Celtics averaged 19 points and 9 rebounds during their career and had almost nobody that anyone could name (other than Pierce) help him go to the conference finals?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    In Response to Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? : Which of the Celtics averaged 19 points and 9 rebounds during their career and had almost nobody that anyone could name (other than Pierce) help him go to the conference finals?
    Posted by TheDUDDER


    That's why I'm asking if you guys think that making it to the 2002 East Finals is enough to merit Toine a spot among the great Celtic players of all-time.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? : That's why I'm asking if you guys think that making it to the 2002 East Finals is enough to merit Toine a spot among the great Celtic players of all-time.
    Posted by P34


    It really depends on how you define great..... I think the term is way overused and many of the players that some would call great players or even great Celtics in my mind would not even warrant the title good let alone great.

    There are probably players that were great way back when that could not even make it in the league today.  There are probably great players back then who were Celtics with no salary cap and otherwise would not have been Celtics.

    What I am getting at is GREAT is a term that applies to only a handful of players but the way it is used we end up debating if Scott Wedman was a great Celtic.

    Antoine Walker was a very good player whose talents were taken for granted and he obviously was more concerned about what his talents could buy him than continuing to improve his talents.

    Right now there are no fewer than 4 starting Celtics that are better players than Antoine Walker over the course of their careers - so how many players do we include as great?  Of course 3 of those 4 starting Celtics played most of their careers on other teams but are currently Celtics.

    My opinion is that if you are not one of the top two or three at your position while you are playing there is no discussion about greatness, further if you are not one of the best of your era greatness is not in the discussion.


     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? : It really depends on how you define great..... I think the term is way overused and many of the players that some would call great players or even great Celtics in my mind would not even warrant the title good let alone great. There are probably players that were great way back when that could not even make it in the league today.  There are probably great players back then who were Celtics with no salary cap and otherwise would not have been Celtics. What I am getting at is GREAT is a term that applies to only a handful of players but the way it is used we end up debating if Scott Wedman was a great Celtic. Antoine Walker was a very good player whose talents were taken for granted and he obviously was more concerned about what his talents could buy him than continuing to improve his talents. Right now there are no fewer than 4 starting Celtics that are better players than Antoine Walker over the course of their careers - so how many players do we include as great?  Of course 3 of those 4 starting Celtics played most of their careers on other teams but are currently Celtics. My opinion is that if you are not one of the top two or three at your position while you are playing there is no discussion about greatness, further if you are not one of the best of your era greatness is not in the discussion.
    Posted by TheDUDDER


    One poster here said that Toine should be ranked higher than Pierce among Celtic Greats. What can you say about that?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? : One poster here said that Toine should be ranked higher than Pierce among Celtic Greats. What can you say about that?
    Posted by P34


    What I say is Walker had great ballhandling skills for someone his size.  He had tremendous hands and incredible footwork for his size.  He was a tweener between a 3 and a 4 and was quicker than most 4s but not nearly the shooter of most threes.

    He never seemed to hunker down and become a great defender and everything else in his game he took for granted and in my opinion did not continue to work to improve his game over his career.

    You will recall the consensus on Pierce was that he was immature and selfish.  That seemed to last until ownership got serious about winning and then Pierce had to grow up and conform.

    When all is said and done Pierce will go down as the better Celtic because ultimately he won while Walker suffers financial ruin and embarrassment.

    But in terms of pure skills, I am not sure Walker wanted for anything in that area.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from jdm894g. Show jdm894g's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? : That's why I'm asking if you guys think that making it to the 2002 East Finals is enough to merit Toine a spot among the great Celtic players of all-time.
    Posted by P34


    No!!!!!!!!!!  NO RINGS!!!!!
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? : What I say is Walker had great ballhandling skills for someone his size.  He had tremendous hands and incredible footwork for his size.  He was a tweener between a 3 and a 4 and was quicker than most 4s but not nearly the shooter of most threes. He never seemed to hunker down and become a great defender and everything else in his game he took for granted and in my opinion did not continue to work to improve his game over his career. You will recall the consensus on Pierce was that he was immature and selfish.  That seemed to last until ownership got serious about winning and then Pierce had to grow up and conform. When all is said and done Pierce will go down as the better Celtic because ultimately he won while Walker suffers financial ruin and embarrassment. But in terms of pure skills, I am not sure Walker wanted for anything in that area.
    Posted by TheDUDDER
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from CaptChris. Show CaptChris's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    Walker was an example of when the inmates start running the asylum!  When the players made their own rules and played as they liked.  He was the resident Clown.

    Antoine Walker was a POOR shooter.  He took 19.4 shots a game with Celtics.  It took him 10,254 Shots to score 10,997 Pts. as a Celtic.  He took terrible shots.  Any shot was a good one to Antoine.  He ended up being a blind man shooting anything in his later years.  He couldn't even hit a foul shot.

    Someone mentioned Dino Radja.  Great comparison.

    Dino is laughed at by most Celtic fans.  He ate and smoked his was out of the league.  He didn't show up in the NBA until he was 26 years old.

    Strange thing:  Dino had a  +18.62 Efficiency Rating for his career.

    Antoine Walker had a  +16.72 Effiency Rating for his career.

    OOPS!


     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Red-Doc-Redemption. Show Red-Doc-Redemption's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    Why is this always a discussion?......Its REALLY annoying. Here is 'Toine in a nutshell. He was all we had for a long time. If Antoine had put some time & energy into his game, he might have been an all-time celtic great, but he did not. He had no discipline. That is why he is playing in the D-League...'Toine kept us afloat for a few dark years, but also left us scratching our heads with his style of play. I'd put him in my top 20 celtics. Not ahead of Ainge, Lewis, Maxwell but ahead of Walton, Archibald, Carr, Ford, Nelson.....Walker could have been a really good, unique player if his head had not swelled so big. He had Derrick Coleman like tools, not as large but quicker. He was fantastic around the basket with the ball in his hands. Like Tommy said the other night, as his career went on he was allowed to shoot the 3 at will & it hurt his game, bc he had a knack for offensive rebounding......Not only did Antoine miss the chance to be great, but the Celtics missed the chance to harness his unique abilities..
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Stupideeediot. Show Stupideeediot's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    Strange thing:  Dino had a  +18.62 Efficiency Rating for his career. Antoine Walker had a  +16.72 Effiency Rating for his career. OOPS!
    Posted by CaptChris


    That was kinda my point. Let's not reward a guy for playing out of position and not doing his job.  He wasn't a great rebounder and he missed so many shots that half his rebounds only balanced his misses.Radja did more to help the team as a PF in his short stint than Walker did in his years.

    This is what bothers me so much about Glenn Davis too.  We praise him for his 15 footers and taking charges, but ignore his lack of rebounding,blocking , or jumping ability.

    Realistically this team does not need Davis taking 15 footers, it needs him rebounding and playing D inside. There's plenty of other guys on the team who can shoot the ball or finish.  I don't feel like watching Rondo and West outrebound and outblock a 290lb guy though so how bout we get a PF that actually plays PF ? Or do we continue to delude ourselves that Antoine was great and just tell Davis to start jacking up 3's instead ?
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? : That was kinda my point. Let's not reward a guy for playing out of position and not doing his job.  He wasn't a great rebounder and he missed so many shots that half his rebounds only balanced his misses.Radja did more to help the team as a PF in his short stint than Walker did in his years. This is what bothers me so much about Glenn Davis too.  We praise him for his 15 footers and taking charges, but ignore his lack of rebounding,blocking , or jumping ability. Realistically this team does not need Davis taking 15 footers, it needs him rebounding and playing D inside. There's plenty of other guys on the team who can shoot the ball or finish.  I don't feel like watching Rondo and West outrebound and outblock a 290lb guy though so how bout we get a PF that actually plays PF ? Or do we continue to delude ourselves that Antoine was great and just tell Davis to start jacking up 3's instead ?
    Posted by Stupideeediot

    I'm sorry, but you're not making any sense.  You're comparing not just apples and oranges but apples and hamburger.   Seriously, BBD and Antoine?  Two massively different players.  First, give Antoine his due, he outrebouded every big man he played with (look it up).  He averaged 9 boards most seasons.  He did the dirty work.  he also shot a lot of stupid 3 pointers and that hurt his field goal percentage.  But, it wasn't like his coach discouraged them.  It wasn't as if he didn't also pass the ball (how many Antoine to Paul dunks and back doors did we see).   you can hate him for his stupid 3 pointers, but give him credit for playing hard underneath for rebounds and hustling on d.  BBD is not the athlete that Antoine was and is incapable of the ball handling and passing that AW had.  They are different players.  Admiring Toine's heart is not a way of encouraging BBD to take 3 pointers - don't say irrelevant and irrational things to make your point.   Your opinion of 'Toine is reasonable - you don't have to like him. But, make a rational argument.

    Honestly, you just sound like a hater.  You don't like BBD because he can't do everything.  He rebounds well when the game is on the line.  He plays good D and against bigger guys.  But you can only criticize because he can't do something else you want done.  Well guess what - Ray can't distribute the ball, Paul has too many turnovers, KG is a power guy, Rondo doesn't shoot well, etc, etc.   Stop hating because BBD (or Antoine) didn't do everything you want.  He did well and he was a good Celtic.  He gave you (a fan) his all and fought for the team and accomplished some things......not everything we wanted so he's not a top 10 or 15, but he gave us a lot of excitement.  Just give credit where credit is due and criticize fairly 9and saying he didn't go underneath to rebound is stupid because HE LED THE TEAM IN REBOUNDS OVER EVERY CENTER HE PLAYED WITH FOR 5 YEARS).

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from kyceltic. Show kyceltic's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?


     Name a player other than Larry Bird, who averaged more Points, rebounds, and assist's then Antoine Walker, in their first 4 years with the Celtics!!
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    As much as I liked Antoine as a player, I think a lot of his production was based on the fact that he was the Boston Celtics' only option for a number of years.  Let's face it, he played on some terrible teams with substandard talent.  He was the best player on many bad teams.  Not his fault.  He had the green light do do whatever he wanted on offense for a very long time before Ainge came and changed things up. 

    Antoine was good at filling up a stat sheet.  He was a versatile player who at times didn't play to his strengths but instead tried to make himself into something he wasn't, which was a jump-shooting assassin.  It's a shame he couldn't be part of a winning tradition here.  He will be remembered (by some) as a guy that cared about winning but who couldn't do the things necessary to carry his less talented teammates.  More was expected of him and he didn't deliver.  Maybe that's not fair to him, but it's reality and one of the reasons why he isn't a Celtic great in my eyes.     
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from hedleylamarr. Show hedleylamarr's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    These 5 players ( off the top of my head) were all the best players on their (bad) teams, and couldn't deliever:

    McAdoo
    English
    Gervin
    Pistol
    Max before Bird

    Is Antoine better than ANY of them?

    So, NO, he is not a Celtics great.  Red always said it starts with number of championships, and that's why he always said he'd take Russell over Bird any day of the week.............Pierce is much, much better as well.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    This is one crazy thread. Walker was never a great Celtic.  Maybe if he had been a Sacramento King or Raptor but a Celtic great?  Look at the history, it is saying that during the low point of the greatest team in sports history Antoine Walker with his selfish and unteam like play was one of the Greats.  A Celtic great who made you almost forget about the dynasty that preceded this jerk.  And make no mistake the guy was jerk.  It wasn't that long ago don't you all remember?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from kyceltic. Show kyceltic's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    These 5 players ( off the top of my head) were all the best players on their (bad) teams, and couldn't deliever: McAdoo English Gervin Pistol Max before Bird Is Antoine better than ANY of them? So, NO, he is not a Celtics great.  Red always said it starts with number of championships, and that's why he always said he'd take Russell over Bird any day of the week.............Pierce is much, much better as well.
    Posted by hedleylamarr


     You do know that 4 of these players are in the hall of fame, and 2 Gervin and Maravich, are in the top 50 of all time don't you!!  If Danny had not traded for Ray and KG, you could say the same thing about Pierce, as you're saying about Antoine!!  P.S. Antoine wasn't better than Wilt, Michael, or Larry either!!
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from hedleylamarr. Show hedleylamarr's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? :  You do know that 4 of these players are in the hall of fame, and 2 Gervin and Maravich, are in the top 50 of all time don't you!!  If Danny had not traded for Ray and KG, you could say the same thing about Pierce, as you're saying about Antoine!!  P.S. Antoine wasn't better than Wilt, Michael, or Larry either!!
    Posted by kyceltic


    Of course I do.  Getting into the HOF and winning championships show NO correlation whatsoever.  These are players that could NOT lead their team to the promised land.  The thread is about AW being a Celtics great.  If these guys are in the HOF, and could not win the whole thing even once, how can AW even be in the discussion of one of the greats when his franchise ONLY goes by championships??

    He is not an All-Time great or a Celtics great.

    And, by the way, if you ADD the number of titles won by Wilt, Michael and Larry, you still TIE (amended) Russ!!
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? :  You do know that 4 of these players are in the hall of fame, and 2 Gervin and Maravich, are in the top 50 of all time don't you!!  If Danny had not traded for Ray and KG, you could say the same thing about Pierce, as you're saying about Antoine!!  P.S. Antoine wasn't better than Wilt, Michael, or Larry either!!
    Posted by kyceltic



    Maybe the issue is how you define "great".   AW is not great in the sense that he delivered championships.  He cannot be compared with Bird, Russell, Jo Jo, Havlicek, MCHale, Parish, etc.  By that definition, he is NOT a great Celtic.  if the measure is a person who played his career in Boston and helped make his team al that he could and was a leader of his team, getting as much out of them as possible - perhaps even overachieving?  By that measure, he is a great Celtic.  He led his team by delivering more rebounds than all of his teammates, the most important assists, shot the big shots or handled the ball to get the ball to Pierce who shot the big shots, etc.  Took stupid 3's, yes.   So, he's a "favorite" Celtic because he was the heart and soul of his team.  Paul has more scoring talent.  AW had more all around talent and was more of a leader.  Had they gotten a Ray Allen and KG to play with them, we would have seen a different AW - but we'll never know now.

    So, I call him an all time Celtic "Favorite" even if he's not "great" because his team never won a championship.

    Key point already made - the difference in Pierce and AW in results is SOLELY who they played with.   Paul had a pretty BAD reputation until he got to play with Ray and KG.  Then people started recognizing what he brought to the table.  Before that - he was often labeled talented but selfish and immature, etc.   Remember the headband thing in the playoffs and George Karl's accusations about him in international ball?   I never believed it but that was Paul's rep until he got to play with other bad players.  All of a sudden, he was "a good defensive player, a good teammate who only cares about winning, etc".  Guess who else would be the same if he got to play with these guys?  Guess who was a valuable member of a championship team (Miami Heat) because he played with better players?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    Oops...."got to play with other "good" players".  Typo.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from kyceltic. Show kyceltic's posts

    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? : Of course I do.  Getting into the HOF and winning championships show NO correlation whatsoever.  These are players that could NOT lead their team to the promised land.  The thread is about AW being a Celtics great.  If these guys are in the HOF, and could not win the whole thing even once, how can AW even be in the discussion of one of the greats when his franchise ONLY goes by championships?? He is not an All-Time great or a Celtics great. And, by the way, if you ADD the number of titles won by Wilt, Michael and Larry, you still are one shy of Russ!!
    Posted by hedleylamarr


     Are you sure Russ won one more title than Wilt, Michael, and Larry?
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share