KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jump-ball-overtime. Show Jump-ball-overtime's posts

    Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?

    Na,  it is just fun to see you lie and exaggerate to cover for your inadequacies.

    So how old are you really? 10, 11, 12?

    I think the most amazing thing is that you are the first person I have ever run into on line, on this site, or any other, that tries to make crap sound like intelligence.

    Do you really get away with this approach in real life?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jump-ball-overtime. Show Jump-ball-overtime's posts

    Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?

    While Duncan has more championships, he has usually been on much better teams than KG. In the following post, I make the case that if both had been on equal quality teams, their is a strong likely hood that both would be considered on the same level, and that it is possible that KG may have been more highly regarded.

    Both Players are 34 years old. KG has been in the league for 15 years and Duncan for 13 years.

     

    1. In the years that KG competed as his teams primary scoring threat, KG’s numbers are better than Duncan’s numbers (These are the years before he joined the Celtics The article listed in reference "1" was written just after KG joined the Celtics.) (1,2)
    This approach makes sense because when KG joined the Celtics in 2007 his role changed. His team no longer needed him to be the primary scorer. Instead the team needed him to lead by example. By sharing the ball selflessly, and letting the other stars do what they do well, everyone bought into team play. KG also helped create a defensive culture. By focusing on defense and holding everyone accountable, the Celtics became a defensive force. At this stage of his career, statistics are not important to KG, only wins.

     

    2. In head to head competition when KG played directly against Duncan, KG’s numbers are better. (3)

    3. Number of All-star starts KG 11, Duncan 11. (2)

    4. Number of All-star appearances KG 13, Duncan 12. (2)

    5. Their Career field goal percentage is very similar with Duncan  at .508 and KG at .498. (2)

    6. KG has 2 rebounding titles and 5 defensive rebounding titles, Duncan has 1 rebounding title and 1 defensive rebounding title. (2)

    7. Both KG and Duncan have earned defensive first team all-NBA 9 times, but KG is the only one to be named Defensive player of the year. (2)

    8. KG is more versatile than Duncan. While Duncan has played Power forward, Center and small forward, KG has played positions one through five effectively and has guarded positions one through five effectively. (4, 5, 6, 7)  KG's abilty to guard almost anyone allows him to act like a middle line backer on defense, improving the Celtic Defense.

    9. KG has been first team All NBA 4 times, and Duncan has been first team All-NBA 9 times. (2) This accolade is one that is likely decided by a championship when the skills between two players are similar. The amazing thing is that KG won the honor 3 times without a championship and once with a championship. (2)

    10. While it is true that Duncan’s Spurs have won 4 championships, and the Wolves have not won a championship, the only team of any quality that KG was on, had the best record in the NBA that year, and went to the western conference finals. They faltered when both the starting point guard and the back up point guard went down with injuries. (2)

    11. Duncan has two league MVPs and KG has one. (2)

     

    No single player wins a championship. Neither Wilt nor Jordan could do it. Certainly neither could Duncan or KG.

    Basketball is inherently a team sport and players require a very good team to break through. For two of the Duncan’s Spurs Championship teams, he had the services of David Robinson, also a former league MVP and defensive player of the year. Tony Parker - three time all-star and finals MVP, Ginobili - one time all star, and Bruce Bowen - perennial 1stteam defensive all-NBA player were on the final three teams. The final championship Spurs team included, two-time all-star Michael Findley as well. (2)

     

    The playing field has finally been leveled now that both Duncan and KG are on great teams. The current score with both players on great teams is:
     
    The Celtics with KG -1 championship, and the Spurs with Duncan - zero championships.

     

    Lets hope KG recovers soon to help the Celtics challenge for number 18.

     

    (1) http://obeese.wordpress.com/2007/12/22/kevin-garnett-vs-tim-duncan-the-great-debate/       Written in the fall of 2007

     

    (2) www.basketball-reference.com/">www.basketball-reference.com/">www.basketball-reference.com/">http://www.basketball-reference.com/

    (3) http://hubpages.com/hub/Garnett-vs-Duncan

    4) The NY Times: www.nytimes.com/2004/05/30/sports/pro-basketball-timberwolves-get-garnett-s-point-to-survive.html">www.nytimes.com/2004/05/30/sports/pro-basketball-timberwolves-get-garnett-s-point-to-survive.html">www.nytimes.com/2004/05/30/sports/pro-basketball-timberwolves-get-garnett-s-point-to-survive.html">http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/30/sports/pro-basketball-timberwolves-get-garnett-s-point-to-survive.html

    (5) From www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/NBA-All-Star-2003-130622.html">www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/NBA-All-Star-2003-130622.html">www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/NBA-All-Star-2003-130622.html">http://www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/NBA-All-Star-2003-130622.html
     
    (6) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Garnett

    (7) www.jockbio.com/Bios/Garnett/Garnett_bio.html">www.jockbio.com/Bios/Garnett/Garnett_bio.html" />www.jockbio.com/">http://www.jockbio.com
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jump-ball-overtime. Show Jump-ball-overtime's posts

    Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?

    Thanks for the input guys.

    Here are some points to ponder.

    This is a thread about how things might have been different if the two best "power forwards" of their generation had been placed in opposite circumstances. While it is impossible to come to a definitive conclusion, there is evidence for more than one point of view.

    Yes, Duncan was the MVP of all of the Spurs finals except one. Parker was also a finals MVP. Certainly comparing finals MVP's makes little sense in this comparision because this is a "what if" their team situation had been reversed thread.

    KG was never in a finals except after he left the Wolves, and in 2008 the finals MVP could have easily gone to Allen or KG instead of Pierce.Yes, we all know that the Spurs went to the finals and won four times, and Duncan has four rings, and three finals MVP's

    Duncan's offensive game was better than KG's?

    The  evidence shows that that is not necessarily true. KG's numbers were better than Duncan's before he joined the Celtics, and took on a different role. The article referenced as #1 clearly shows this. Furthermore, his better scoring numbers occurred with very similar field goal percentages. Some years, Duncan was better than KG, and some years, KG was better than Duncan. Surprisingly, Duncan's field goal percentage was higher in 2004, KG's MVP year. 

    Also, before KG joined the Celics, more of his scoring came from post play. His style, however, was more like Olajuwon's than Duncan's, but it really does not matter. If KG scored more points, with approximately the same field goal percentage why should it?

    YearTeamKGDuncan
    97-98Wolves.491.549
    98-99Wolves.460.495
    99-00Wolves.497.490
    00-01Wolves.477.499
    01-02Wolves.470.508
    02-03Wolves.502.513
    03-04Wolves.499.501
    04-05Wolves.502.496
    05-06Wolves.526.484
    06-07Wolves.476.546
    07-08Celtics.539.497
    08-09Celtics.531.504
    09-10Celtics.521.518
    10-11Celtics.539.496

    data from basketballreference.com

    Career field Goal percentage is -
    KG         0.498
    Duncan  0.508

    KG rebounding, assists, and defense exceeds Duncan's output.

    Now that both players are on great teams, it is the Celtics 1 and the Spurs zero.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jump-ball-overtime. Show Jump-ball-overtime's posts

    Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?

    Junior High

    I guess these must be pretty strong arguments to support the original theme, if you are unable to provide serious evidence for the other side.

    Shouting it down, popular opinion, and exaggeration don't work.

    Please prove my point by continuing your tactics.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?

    In Response to Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?:
    [QUOTE]Junior High I guess these must be pretty strong arguments to support the original theme, if you are unable to provide serious evidence for the other side. Shouting it down, popular opinion, and exaggeration don't work. Please prove my point by continuing your tactics.
    Posted by Jump-ball-overtime[/QUOTE]

    Actually, Jump, it is you looking like the idiot here. Who cares about all your evidence, at the end of the day KG and Duncan will never switch places or the circumstances will never be different.

    You say I'm 11 or 12 years old but you're the one playing the "what if" game. What might have been and what could have been are fantasies. 

    Don't tell me I'm exaggerating because all I said was Duncan has a slight edge over KG. You're the one who thinks that KG is better because people "sit up" to watch KG destroy Vince Carter in an All-Star game.

    You can't even find an article that has KG as the best PF in the history of the NBA. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?

    "I'm with P34.   Gentlemen, on one side you have actually history and facts (Duncan's MVP's, championships, playoff stats, full career stats - especially early career stats).  On the other hand, you have the "speculation" of what might have happened IF KG were on the Spurs and Duncan was on the Wolves.  Maybe the speculations are right but we'll never really KNOW.  All we KNOW is what the actual facts say which is that over their careers, especially when you look at the impact of the first 4 or so years to their totals, Duncan is the more accomplished and better player."

    Re: CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE KG VS. GASOL

    posted at 12/19/2010 10:21 AM EST
    www.boston.com/community/persona.html?UID=c75020937c023da12a6ae62fa239f05d&plckUserId=c75020937c023da12a6ae62fa239f05d">
    Posts: 411
    First: 3/12/2010
    Last: 1/5/2011
    I'm with P34.   Gentlemen, on one side you have actually history and facts (Duncan's MVP's, championships, playoff stats, full career stats - especially early career stats).  On the other hand, you have the "speculation" of what might have happened IF KG were on the Spurs and Duncan was on the Wolves.  Maybe the speculations are right but we'll never really KNOW.  All we KNOW is what the actual facts say which is that over their careers, especially when you look at the impact of the first 4 or so years to their totals, Duncan is the more accomplished and better player.

    Duncan is in the argument for all time greatest power forward to ever play the game (I think he is and some say Malone or Barkley or McHale).  However, KG is not in that argument.  

    Now, this year - I take KG over Duncan any night.  Period.  KG is MVP material this year.  The man is playing possessed.  

    But, over their careers, you must give the edge to Duncan.  Speculation of who MIGHT have done better with equal supporting casts is only that.....speculation.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?

    In Response to Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?:
    [QUOTE]Jam, I agree that Duncan has had the more successful career so far. I also agree that KG has the edge on defense. As far as offense, It can depend on how you look at it. Duncan has usually been better with his back to the basket than KG. It may have been due to Duncan's  higher weight, and his abilty to back people down in the low post. McHale tried to teach his moves to KG but due to his lower weight, and the fact that McHale was allowed "footwork" (moving his pivot foot) KG would always get called for traveling. KG adopted Olajuwan's moves instead to compensate for his lower body mass.  The real question, is: Does it matter? KG's career offensive numbers were better than Duncan's before he joined the Celtics, while acheiveing very similar field goal percentage numbers. In head to head competition, KG vs. Duncan, KG's offensive numbers are also better than Duncan's (see post #1 for evidence) Now that KG is with the Celtics, his offensive numbers are down, but his field goal percentage has been consistantly higher than Duncan's (see an earlier post). This is an interesting development considering that KG is viewed as mostly a jump shooter now, and Duncan is considered a low post player. In KG's new role with the Celtics, it was important for the other stars to get what they needed and wanted for them to buy into selfless motion offense. It was also important for them to buy into their defensive roles. With KG, statistics no longer matter, only wins.
    Posted by Jump-ball-overtime[/QUOTE]

    This is proof of subtle manipulation at its finest by Grandpa Jump. 

    Pretending to agree with Jam but writes 3 paragraphs to convince Jam that KG is better than Duncan.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?

    In Response to Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?:
    [QUOTE]Gasthorer, Their field goal percentages have been almost identical as shown above. While KG played more low post in his peak years, it is interesting that KG's field goal percentage has been higher than Duncan's since joining the Celtics when KG has spent more time jump shooting.
    Posted by Jump-ball-overtime[/QUOTE]

    Gasthorer said he'll pick Duncan over KG. What did Jump-ball-overtime do? Naturally he tried to explain to Gasthorer that KG's FG% has been higher etc.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?

    In Response to Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?:
    [QUOTE]Mem 17, I agree with your statement about Duncan being more of a center. Since David Robinson retired, he has played more Center than Power Forward. I also agree that he likes to be known as a power forward instead of a Center. As you say, as a power forward most rank him as the best ever, however, as a Center, I guess he is just one of many.
    Posted by Jump-ball-overtime[/QUOTE]

    This one is really lame, Jump. I mean if Duncan has played more Center since Robinson retired and you say Duncan is just one of many, then how come after David Robinson retired Duncan won 2 more championships?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?

    In Response to Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?:
    [QUOTE]Bilalkazme, That is an interesting point. My hope was not to show that KG was better than Duncan, though he clearly has some advantages in some areas, it was to show that if circumstances had been different, then it is likely that KG would be considered on Duncan's level or maybe higher. Clearly both were highly regarded in the western conference as both were voted All Star game starters eleven times.
    Posted by Jump-ball-overtime[/QUOTE]

    See that, Jump? You're trying to convince Bilalkazme that KG is better when he clearly said he preferred Duncan if he were to choose between KG and Duncan.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jump-ball-overtime. Show Jump-ball-overtime's posts

    Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?

    Your right bozo,

    evidence does not count for you. All that natters is flash and emotion.

    Change the arguement, who cares, after so many posts, only you and I are reading this stuff.

    No matter what you say or how you say it it has very little to do with the original premise.  Some will read these statements and know who you are. Others don't care.

    My point has been made.

    Thank you

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?

    In Response to Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?:
    [QUOTE]Your right bozo, evidence does not count for you. All that natters is flash and emotion. Change the arguement, who cares, after so many posts, only you and I are reading this stuff. No matter what you say or how you say it it has very little to do with the original premise.  Some will read these statements and know who you are. Others don't care. My point has been made. Thank you
    Posted by Jump-ball-overtime[/QUOTE]

    Others don't care because your thread is a sham. 

    All the evidence you have will not make KG the best PF in the history of the NBA. You said so yourself, many people believe Duncan is the best PF in the history of the NBA. So far there are 8 people here who think Duncan has the edge over KG. Only one voted for KG and the reason for that is because of KG's "charismatic presence in 2008". The 8 to 1 ratio pretty much speaks for itself.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?

    In Response to Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?:
    [QUOTE]Your right bozo, evidence does not count for you. All that natters is flash and emotion. Change the arguement, who cares, after so many posts, only you and I are reading this stuff. No matter what you say or how you say it it has very little to do with the original premise.  Some will read these statements and know who you are. Others don't care. My point has been made. Thank you
    Posted by Jump-ball-overtime[/QUOTE]

    I'm not changing the argument. From the very start my position regarding this matter is Duncan has a slight edge over KG because Duncan is a better inside the paint player. 

    You're the one who keeps changing the argument. From "if the circumstances had been different" to KG and Duncan switching places, to "the image of each player if they changed places", it's pretty obvious you're the one trying to shift from one excuse to the other.

    A simple breakdown:

    1. "if circumstances had been different" - we'll never know because it's pure FANTASY

    2. KG and Duncan switching places - not happening because again it's PURE FANTASY

    3. "image of each player if they changed places" - even when KG was with the Wolves he was always voted by the fans to be a starter for the All-Star game, KG has no image problems
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Diaw. Show Diaw's posts

    Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?

    I vote for KG
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?

    In Response to Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?:
    [QUOTE]I vote for KG
    Posted by Diaw[/QUOTE]

    HAHAHA!!!

    A new account just to vote for KG?

    HAHAHA!!! AGAIN!


    UPDATE:

    It's not a new account, it's a dormant account suddenly come to life just to vote for KG.

    PATHETIC!

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: KG vs Duncan - How would they compare if both had been on great teams for thier entire careers?

    REALLY?

    Re: Trade Ray right nowwwwwwww

    posted at 1/27/2010 10:35 AM EST
    www.boston.com/community/persona.html?UID=3af33c8288b2c4240b011eb830d11644&plckUserId=3af33c8288b2c4240b011eb830d11644">
    Posts: 2
    First: 1/27/2010
    Last: 1/6/2011
    We need Shane Battier.
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share