Love & Griffin All Star debate

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Karllost. Show Karllost's posts

    Love & Griffin All Star debate

    Im getting sick of hearing about it. Last night on NBA tv Kenny, Weber & Ernie discussing whether these 2 belong on the All Star team.

    Come on, youve got to be kidding, especially Love. The guy leads the league in rebounds, scoring over 20 pts and pretty much carrying Minn on his back..

    Griffins numbers not too much different and hes a regular of espn's highlight reel and making fans pay attention to Clipper games.

    Id put them both on the team even if it meant expanding the rosters. Dont know who's in front of them but they should be there. Id have Love rated a bit over Griffin
     
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from existentialparquet. Show existentialparquet's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    Yeah both of those guys should make the roster. (Griffin because he is an absolute monster. He reminds me of MJ if MJ played PF.-- maybe overstated)
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    Karl, I'd vote Griffin over Love because I'm voting for allstar talent.  If the allstar game is about talent, I think Love will be out of place. He's like a super Paul Silas in that he's a great position rebounder and does the basics.  But, he's not going to win any battle or carry his team to victory (look at their record).  

    Blake, on the other hand, is making a difference in that the Clips are now starting to actually win games and Blake can beat the best of them on any given move.  I don't think you can clamp down Blake no matter how good a defender you are.  Same cannot be said for Love.  In any important part of the game, good defenders will keep love off the board and his team loses......happens every night.

    Sorry, but I have Anthony, Durant, Gasol, Butler, Odom, Duncan, Dirk, and Blake all over Love.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    I'm in love with Love! LOL! The guy has shown continuous improvement each year, got his body right, doesn't need the ball to be dominant, high BB IQ and is headed for a great career. I felt the same way about KG in the 1990's. Hopefully someday Love will be a Celtic.

    Griffin is Karl Malone on steroids...if that's possible. It's just a matter of time before he's out of LA. People are really liking Deandre Jordan. Um, Jordan did nothing last year. It's because Griffin is there. You put Griffin with a good C and it's over. If Kaman gets right I would take him in Boston.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate:
    [QUOTE]Karl, I'd vote Griffin over Love because I'm voting for allstar talent.  If the allstar game is about talent, I think Love will be out of place. He's like a super Paul Silas in that he's a great position rebounder and does the basics.  But, he's not going to win any battle or carry his team to victory (look at their record).   Blake, on the other hand, is making a difference in that the Clips are now starting to actually win games and Blake can beat the best of them on any given move.  I don't think you can clamp down Blake no matter how good a defender you are.  Same cannot be said for Love.  In any important part of the game, good defenders will keep love off the board and his team loses......happens every night. Sorry, but I have Anthony, Durant, Gasol, Butler, Odom, Duncan, Dirk, and Blake all over Love.
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]

    Love's got NOBODY to play with...NOBODY. All those guys you listed have a Batman and Robin. Love has the Joker, The Riddler and Batgirl.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    Griffin is truly a monster, isn't he, Bias?   I'm with you that no star in his right mind stays with the Clips too long.  It will be interesting to see if he's the first superstar to do it.  If the Lakers go downhill in the next 3 years and Griffin is the star in La La land, we might be wrong and he stays!
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate : Love's got NOBODY to play with...NOBODY. All those guys you listed have a Batman and Robin. Love has the Joker, The Riddler and Batgirl.
    Posted by BiasLewis[/QUOTE]


    Hilarious!!!

    Love is a super hard worker and I love his dirty work.  But, that does not make an allstar.  It makes him a critical part of a good team one day....not the allstar.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    C'mon C4life, you don't think Love is an AS type player or a player to build around? Anyone that can get double-doubles like he does is an cornerstone. He's in the same position as KG was with the TWolves.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    Sorry, Bias.  No, I don't think so.  You're not really thinking Kevin Love is comparable to a young KG, do you??

    Garnett broke into the league in 1996.  His team won 26 games. The next year they won 40 and then 45 and made the playoffs both years.  

    Love is in his second season.  They'll be lucky to win 20 games.  You do NOT build a team around Kevin Love.  You make Kevin Love a part of a team where someone else leads you.   He's playing with Beasley, Brewer, Flynn, Darko, and Tolliver.  They should not be 1 game above last place in the entire league.  

    Sorry, I "love" Love's game.....but as a role player.  He is NOT a franchise player.  Great hard working guy I'd lOVE to have on our team.  But, I wouldn't make him a player to build around and he's not an all star.  

    Question:  You get to pick 4 of these guys for your franchise: Dirk, Carmelo, Pau Gasol, Durant, Blake, or Love.  What are your top 4 (I'm not even including Duncan or Odom....just the younger guys)?

    Question 2:  Who do you choose of those guys for the allstar team and tell me which one is off the all star team so you can put Love on it.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    C4Life, No I can't pick Love over those guys but those guys aren't young. They've been in the league at least 7 years. He's only played 2 years.

    For the AS game I would go Dirk, Melo, Durant and Blake at F's. Gasol and Love as my C's.

    They had a stat on ESPN about double doubles and KG had 37 straight when he was with the TWolves. Love already has 26 straight and he's not even halfway through the season.

    Here are the leaders

    http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/DoubleD.jsp?league=00&season=22010&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate:
    [QUOTE]C4Life, No I can't pick Love over those guys but those guys aren't young. They've been in the league at least 7 years. He's only played 2 years. For the AS game I would go Dirk, Melo, Durant and Blake at F's. Gasol and Love as my C's. They had a stat on ESPN about double doubles and KG had 37 straight when he was with the TWolves. Love already has 26 straight and he's not even halfway through the season. Here are the leaders http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/DoubleD.jsp?league=00&season=22010&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1
    Posted by BiasLewis[/QUOTE]

    I'm laughing out loud about this discussion.  By my standards, if your team wins 15 games one year and 20 games the next (if they're lucky), and your team is 1 game from last place, you're not an allstar, just like you can't be an MVP.  By definition - you're not good enough to get a reasonable number of wins against other terrible teams, then you are not an all star.

    Its ok, I see why you make the argument.  I hope you can see why I would absolutely NOT vote for Love this year.  I'd no more vote for Love than I would BBD or DuJuan Blair or Lamar Odom or Al Jefferson.  All good hard working valuable players to their teams - but not allstars by any means.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    Wow that's all I can relly say. I thought the AS game was about how an individual was playing not the team. If he's doing his part to get wins and they still lose how is that a negative on him? Does he need to get 40 and 40 to win? Don't the other guys get paid too?

    BBD would never make my AS team. :-) :-)
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    Well, I way what I said because a player can be a stat junky and get rebounds and points that don't matter. If he's not getting rebounds and points that help you win, then who cares?  If he can and is stopped from scoring or rebounding when its time to win, then maybe he's just getting the rebound cause he's on the court.

    An all star plays great basketball against the best players and still shines, often carrying his team to a win.  Love does not fit that definition.

    If his team was winning even 50% or 40% of the time, I'd know his actions matter.  But, nothing Love is doing even matters so I wonder if he's just a hustle player (eg. hustle player does not equal allstar).

    BBD would never make my AS team, either.  Neither would the rest of those guys.  But, that's who I think Love is like.  BTW, I did get the joke and I know why you made the statement (you, in particular, would NEVER select BBD to your AS team...you would trade him for Camby.....:=).
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Karllost. Show Karllost's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    Cant follow that logic. Because a team isnt very good, therefore it cant have an all star player?  Nonsense.  I bet there are dozens of players over the years that fit that category.

    As far as you cant build a team around Love, therefore hes not an allstar?  Tell me, how did KC Jones get to the HOF? Did anyone ever build a team around him? Tony Parker has been an all star but the Spurs didnt build their team around him.. ditto Scotty Pippen, Dennis ROdman, Kevin McHale et al.

    K Love is an all satr in my book. He doesnt need to fly through the air and posterize someone with a tomahawk dunk either.  A 3 foot bank shot counts as much as a soaring slam. 15-20 boards a game + 20 points  in the NBA = ALL STAR...period!

    Basketball is a team sport.  If your team isnt good, that doesnt mean every player is DQ'd from being an all star.  IF you put Lebron or Russell on a HS team, they'd lose 99% of their games in the NBA... therefore they are not all stars??
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Karllost. Show Karllost's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    IF anything Love is even more impressive in that each team the Woves play, they gameplan for Love... cause everyone else is weak.... yet he still gets it done.  The Celtics did the same and Love still  smoked them.

    Pretty much the same for Griffin.. hes targeted cause hes the star on the team, with not much else around him cept for a healthy B Davis.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate:
    [QUOTE]IF anything Love is even more impressive in that each team the Woves play, they gameplan for Love... cause everyone else is weak.... yet he still gets it done.  The Celtics did the same and Love still  smoked them. Pretty much the same for Griffin.. hes targeted cause hes the star on the team, with not much else around him cept for a healthy B Davis.
    Posted by Karllost[/QUOTE]


    OK, Karl.  You answer the question then.  Who is he better than in the West all star balloting list:

    Carmelo Anthony
    Pau Gasol
    Dirk Nowitski
    Kevin Durant
    Tim Duncan
    Caron Butler
    Lamar Odom
    Blake Griffin

    Now, to make the team, only 3 of these guys can be chosen above him.   So, you think he's better than Anthony, Gasol, Nowitski, Duncan, Durant, etc?  

    Asked another way, take say Gasol or Duncan or Nowitski or Carmelo  and place them on the Timberwolves and then place Love on their team.  So you think, for example, that the Spurs would have the best record in the league if Love replaced Duncan.  Or the Lakers would be just as good or better if Love were there instead of Gasol?  Dallas would be challenging for a championship if Love were there instead of Nowitski?

    That's what I mean by an allstar makes his team win.....not all games, but no true allstar has a team that for consecutive years is at last place or next to last place.  Being the best player on a terrible team does not make you an allstar.  

    The guy is not an Allstar.  you're looking at his stats.  Instead, watch him play. You'll see a hard working guy who hustles his but off and gets rebounds.  You'll not see a guy who can take others in critical situations and gets the win for his team.  Repeat - a hustling guy that I love......but NOT an allstar in this league.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate:
    [QUOTE]IF anything Love is even more impressive in that each team the Woves play, they gameplan for Love... cause everyone else is weak.... yet he still gets it done.  The Celtics did the same and Love still  smoked them. Pretty much the same for Griffin.. hes targeted cause hes the star on the team, with not much else around him cept for a healthy B Davis.
    Posted by Karllost[/QUOTE]


    And by the way, everyone else is NOT weak.  Beasley, Darko, Ridnour, Webster, and Brewer. Beasley averages 21 PPG.  Darko is a 7 footer.  Webster averages 17 a game.  They are good enough to win more games but they don't.  If they can defense him enough in every game for them to lose (and often lose big), then those numbers don't matter - he's not able to get his team to win.  He's therefore good, but not great.  

    How can Golden State, Philadelphia, and Charlotte win 50% more games than he can win, but he's an allstar?  I'm not asking him to beat LA or San Antonio or Denver or Dallas.  Just beat the Clippers or Golden State or Portland or Philly or Charlotte.  But he can't!   Not an allstar when compared to the other players in this league.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    In Response to Love & Griffin All Star debate:
    [QUOTE]Im getting sick of hearing about it. Last night on NBA tv Kenny, Weber & Ernie discussing whether these 2 belong on the All Star team. Come on, youve got to be kidding, especially Love. The guy leads the league in rebounds, scoring over 20 pts and pretty much carrying Minn on his back.. Griffins numbers not too much different and hes a regular of espn's highlight reel and making fans pay attention to Clipper games. Id put them both on the team even if it meant expanding the rosters. Dont know who's in front of them but they should be there. Id have Love rated a bit over Griffin  
    Posted by Karllost[/QUOTE]

    Amazing.... how is it even remotely possible on Boston.com that now that Al Jefferson is playing in the western conference that he is not the perennial all-star?

    Are there any posters with the b all s big enough to come back now and say "you were right".... there are Al Jeffersons drafted every year and that he has not improved virtually at all since he entered the league the same year as Dwight Howard and that even now playing on a good team with perhaps the best point guard in the league he is still nowhere near being an all-star?  

    Your defense?  OLE.... just like Big Al's.


     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from RUWorthy. Show RUWorthy's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    Love is not an all star type player yet. But then again, there have been players selected to play in that game who have not really been 'all stars'.

    Love is at least improving as a player, so maybe he'll make the All Star roster in a season or two. But not right now.


     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Karllost. Show Karllost's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    I must be in the minority... 21 pts and 16 rebounds isnt good enough.  Duncan at 14 & 9 is.. or Odom??

    I just see things different. Doing a great job without flash doesnt cut it I guess.

    We're not choosing MVP's here, then your teams record figures in alot more.  What PF is having a better year than Love??
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    Sorry, but no, 21 and 16 in totally irrelevant games doesn't matter.  Stats are not the measure of an allstar.  I'd take Duncan's 14 and 9 in his reduced minutes (where Pop is simply saving him for the playoffs) that are helping produce the league leading record over Love's 21 and 16 in games that don't matter because they are getting beat by lots of points.  They have the second worse margin of loss in the league.  They have the second worst record in the league and he can produce no wins.  Irrelevant points and rebounds because no team has to play them hard.

    Manu Ginobli has been an all star only 1 time.  Carmelo Anthony has been an all star only 3 times.  You're telling me this guy at this time is a better all star forward than Gasol or Melo or Duncan or Dirk or Durant or Griffin, etc.  

    I repeat, one day he may be a star.  Right now, he's a hard working, likeable, terrific rebounder who could really help some good team if he were on one but he's not an all star calibre player who can lead a team to even 50% of its games to victory.  Not an allstar in this league, not yet.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Karllost. Show Karllost's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate:
    [QUOTE]Sorry, but no, 21 and 16 in totally irrelevant games doesn't matter.  Stats are not the measure of an allstar.  I'd take Duncan's 14 and 9 in his reduced minutes (where Pop is simply saving him for the playoffs) that are helping produce the league leading record over Love's 21 and 16 in games that don't matter because they are getting beat by lots of points.  They have the second worse margin of loss in the league.  They have the second worst record in the league and he can produce no wins.  Irrelevant points and rebounds because no team has to play them hard. Manu Ginobli has been an all star only 1 time.  Carmelo Anthony has been an all star only 3 times.  You're telling me this guy at this time is a better all star forward than Gasol or Melo or Duncan or Dirk or Durant or Griffin, etc.   I repeat, one day he may be a star.  Right now, he's a hard working, likeable, terrific rebounder who could really help some good team if he were on one but he's not an all star calibre player who can lead a team to even 50% of its games to victory.  Not an allstar in this league, not yet.
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]

    Where did you find the definition of an "all-star player" that requires him to lead his team to a certain percentage of victories?  I dont think thats the case.

    Then again, maybe nobody knows the true definition. Im thinking who are the best players. 

    Now you say Duncan over Love.  Your rationale is although Duncans stats cant measure up to Loves... its different cause Pop is playing Duncan less minutes, saving him for the playoffs

    Well, shouldnt an All-Star pack the bulk of his teams minutes?? Does he get saved for later in the season??

    So in the Love/Duncan comparison... although Love is contributing more to his team, it doesnt count cause Duncan is being saved... so in other words, it doesnt matter what Love does.. score 50 with 25 boards but hes not an allstar cause his team suxx. lol 

    Is it Loves fault his team isnt good? and if his team has talent but still loses, would that be Loves fault or his coaches??

    I think youre painting the guy into a corner thats a no win for him. 

    Anyway, I respect your opinion but I just dont see it that way.. 
     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate : Where did you find the definition of an "all-star player" that requires him to lead his team to a certain percentage of victories?  I dont think thats the case. Then again, maybe nobody knows the true definition. Im thinking who are the best players.  Now you say Duncan over Love.  Your rationale is although Duncans stats cant measure up to Loves... its different cause Pop is playing Duncan less minutes, saving him for the playoffs Well, shouldnt an All-Star pack the bulk of his teams minutes?? Does he get saved for later in the season?? So in the Love/Duncan comparison... although Love is contributing more to his team, it doesnt count cause Duncan is being saved... so in other words, it doesnt matter what Love does.. score 50 with 25 boards but hes not an allstar cause his team suxx. lol  Is it Loves fault his team isnt good? and if his team has talent but still loses, would that be Loves fault or his coaches?? I think youre painting the guy into a corner thats a no win for him.  Anyway, I respect your opinion but I just dont see it that way..   
    Posted by Karllost[/QUOTE]

    I understand your points.  We all have a vote as fans.  Mine would just never go to a guy in his situation because I just don't see him as successful in tough situations.  I have to vote for people who score/defend/rebound and it results in something that matters (wins).  There's no set definition.  We all have our own logic.  But, I know some will vote for him and I'm fine with that.   

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate:
    [QUOTE]Cant follow that logic. Because a team isnt very good, therefore it cant have an all star player?  Nonsense.  I bet there are dozens of players over the years that fit that category. As far as you cant build a team around Love, therefore hes not an allstar?  Tell me, how did KC Jones get to the HOF? Did anyone ever build a team around him? Tony Parker has been an all star but the Spurs didnt build their team around him.. ditto Scotty Pippen, Dennis ROdman, Kevin McHale et al. K Love is an all satr in my book. He doesnt need to fly through the air and posterize someone with a tomahawk dunk either.  A 3 foot bank shot counts as much as a soaring slam. 15-20 boards a game + 20 points  in the NBA = ALL STAR...period! Basketball is a team sport.  If your team isnt good, that doesnt mean every player is DQ'd from being an all star.  IF you put Lebron or Russell on a HS team, they'd lose 99% of their games in the NBA... therefore they are not all stars??
    Posted by Karllost[/QUOTE]


    Bingo!
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate:
    [QUOTE]I must be in the minority... 21 pts and 16 rebounds isnt good enough.  Duncan at 14 & 9 is.. or Odom?? I just see things different. Doing a great job without flash doesnt cut it I guess. We're not choosing MVP's here, then your teams record figures in alot more.  What PF is having a better year than Love??
    Posted by Karllost[/QUOTE]

    No, we're in the minority. To me Love is playing lights out. Like you said teams key on him and he still gets his. It's not like he's playing with a Big 3 and he's getting the benefits. KG was an All Star for years with the TWolves and they stunk.

    Why is Caron Butler even on Cfans4life list of AS players??
     
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