Love & Griffin All Star debate

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate:
    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate : No, we're in the minority. To me Love is playing lights out. Like you said teams key on him and he still gets his. It's not like he's playing with a Big 3 and he's getting the benefits. KG was an All Star for years with the TWolves and they stunk. Why is Caron Butler even on Cfans4life list of AS players??
    Posted by BiasLewis

    A. Butler was on the list because he was getting votes before he got hurt (he was on the ballot) and
    B. KG's Twolves never stunk it up anywhere near where these guys are.  KG won 25 games in his rookie season, 40 in his second season and made the playoffs, and 45 in his third year and made the playoffs winning 2 of the 5 games (I looked it up).  KG's stats resulted in wins and his team's results showed it (and everyone knew he was leading them....without him they could not make the playoffs or win games against tough teams).

    So, factually, Love does not have half the team accomplishments of KG when KG was young (and KG was 19 at that time and still doing more than Love for his team).  

    Look, I'll never convince you that Love is a stat man.....stats that don't mean anything if you can be stopped at critical times such that your team loses ALL THE TIME.  KG was never in last place and Love is 1 game from last place.  I'm ok with your opinion.  I understand and recognize your logic.  There's no set formula for what an all star is.  You see it as stats.  I don't.  I see it as effective play against other stars at critical times in games.  I fear Carmelo at the end of a game.  Same for Pau, for Duncan, for Blake, and Odom, and Dirk.   I do not fear Love at any critical point.  He's a team's workhorse. He's the rebounder and workaholic you want on your team.  I've love to have him as a Celtic.  But, my standards for "all star" mean Lebron, Pierce, Dirk, Pau, Melo, KG, Duncan, Amare, etc.  Those guys carry their teams and are fierce talents.  Love is not in that category in MY opinion.  

    I respect your opinion and understand you think a great set of stats on a last place team means you're an all star.  I accept your logic.  Just see my position as different and its ok to disagree.

    I won't post on this anymore as I realize how strongly you disagree.  See you on other more relevant threads.  Have a great weekend, gents.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from existentialparquet. Show existentialparquet's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    Love has no flash to his game. Griffin is way more fun to watch. Love is just incredibly consistent. He is playing incredibly well. There is no way he should be left off this year.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from MichBelgium. Show MichBelgium's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    What about Z-BO. This guy is playing lights out !
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate:
    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate : Where did you find the definition of an "all-star player" that requires him to lead his team to a certain percentage of victories?  I dont think thats the case. Then again, maybe nobody knows the true definition. Im thinking who are the best players.  Now you say Duncan over Love.  Your rationale is although Duncans stats cant measure up to Loves... its different cause Pop is playing Duncan less minutes, saving him for the playoffs Well, shouldnt an All-Star pack the bulk of his teams minutes?? Does he get saved for later in the season?? So in the Love/Duncan comparison... although Love is contributing more to his team, it doesnt count cause Duncan is being saved... so in other words, it doesnt matter what Love does.. score 50 with 25 boards but hes not an allstar cause his team suxx. lol  Is it Loves fault his team isnt good? and if his team has talent but still loses, would that be Loves fault or his coaches?? I think youre painting the guy into a corner thats a no win for him.  Anyway, I respect your opinion but I just dont see it that way..   
    Posted by Karllost


    The reality is the overwhelming majority of players that make all-star teams are top 10 picks (unless they are of course the foreign born players on which GMs don't risk high draft picks)....... 

    What happens to these high draft picks is they usually come from crappy teams that eventually become very good teams unless of course they are drafted by teams that are not really that bad - for example, David Robinson feigns an unjury which nets Duncan, etc.

    Love could become an all-star through lots of winning if his ownership did not make trades that minimize his payroll and have bad injuries.

    Griffin's team would have a lot more wins if his starting center had not missed most of the season and if his starting point guard was not an ego maniac whose life's goal was to p iss away his earnings and attempt to find his name in lights as some sort of talented person - which he is not.

    So both Griffin and Love are two of the best forwards in the western conference but likely will not be added to the roster as a result of their teams' wins and losses.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneOnOne. Show OneOnOne's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate:
    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate : The reality is the overwhelming majority of players that make all-star teams are top 10 picks (unless they are of course the foreign born players on which GMs don't risk high draft picks).......  What happens to these high draft picks is they usually come from crappy teams that eventually become very good teams unless of course they are drafted by teams that are not really that bad - for example, David Robinson feigns an unjury which nets Duncan, etc. Love could become an all-star through lots of winning if his ownership did not make trades that minimize his payroll and have bad injuries. Griffin's team would have a lot more wins if his starting center had not missed most of the season and if his starting point guard was not an ego maniac whose life's goal was to p iss away his earnings and attempt to find his name in lights as some sort of talented person - which he is not. So both Griffin and Love are two of the best forwards in the western conference but likely will not be added to the roster as a result of their teams' wins and losses.
    Posted by TheDUDDER


    I am impressed, not one cheap shot at a Celtic player.  Nice job.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneOnOne. Show OneOnOne's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    Griffith ejected in Faker game when Odumb pulls his jersey because Griffith is still trying late in the game.  How in the world did the refs figure Griffith gets ejected?   Of course whiny Phil says he doesn't understan why Artest got ejected. 
     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate:
    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate : how you can put Odom and Butler over Love.......neither one of them should be AS's
    Posted by damfuno


    OK, that's my opinion and I stand by it because Odom and Butler are having great years and they share the ball with another star forward.  I didn't say they'd make the team, I said I have them rated higher than Love.   But, Odom and Butler won't make it and neither will Love.   I simply ask everyone to choose between the top vote getters on the ballot.  Go back and do the test.......Gasol, Durant, Zach Randolph, Butler, Nowitski, Carmelo, Odom, Blake Griffin, Love, etc.  Do the vote and tell me where Love fits on your list and tell me your logic for him being one of the top 4 all star centers you'd choose in the West (hint:  you have to rate him above either Gasol, Nowitski, Carmelo, or Durant).

    Go for it. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    oops, and I forgot - you have to rate him above Griffin as well as those guys above, as well because that's the start of this thread.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneOnOne. Show OneOnOne's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate:
    Karl, I'd vote Griffin over Love because I'm voting for allstar talent.  If the allstar game is about talent, I think Love will be out of place. He's like a super Paul Silas in that he's a great position rebounder and does the basics.  But, he's not going to win any battle or carry his team to victory (look at their record).   Blake, on the other hand, is making a difference in that the Clips are now starting to actually win games and Blake can beat the best of them on any given move.  I don't think you can clamp down Blake no matter how good a defender you are.  Same cannot be said for Love.  In any important part of the game, good defenders will keep love off the board and his team loses......happens every night. Sorry, but I have Anthony, Durant, Gasol, Butler, Odom, Duncan, Dirk, and Blake all over Love.
    Posted by Celtsfan4life


    I am not saying who I think deserves it more but I don't agree with this analysis.

    #1Position rebounder with fundamentals?  Thats all?  If that was all it took there would be a lot of players averaging 15 boards a game.  HE HAS TALENT.
    #2 Funny you say a good player would keep him off the boards.  He plays against good players every night and averages a whopping 15 BOARDS A GAME. That statement is not even close to being correct. Who is the last good player that kept him off the boards?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate:
    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate : I am not saying who I think deserves it more but I don't agree with this analysis. #1Position rebounder with fundamentals?  Thats all?  If that was all it took there would be a lot of players averaging 15 boards a game.  HE HAS TALENT. #2 Funny you say a good player would keep him off the boards.  He plays against good players every night and averages a whopping 15 BOARDS A GAME. That statement is not even close to being correct. Who is the last good player that kept him off the boards?
    Posted by OneOnOne

    Minnesota lost to Orlando the other night.  I watched the game.  At the half, Love had 11 rebounds and The Wolves led 55 to 48.  The power forward for the Wolves is Brandon Bass.   In the second half, the Magic (small as they are) stepped up the rebounding.  Love ended up with 15 total rebounds (4 in the critical second half).  The Wolves lost at home by 10.  Love scored 11 points.  That's why the Wolves lose all the time and are next to last.  Love is a hustling player who is not fast enough nor strong enough to be able to dominate anyone when the game gets tough.  His stats showed up as 15 rebounds, but the real story of the game is that they shut him down when they wanted to.

    This is what I'm trying to say happens to him a LOT.  Watch the Timberwolves game.  I have the NBA season pass and am an avid NBA fan.  I watch other games because the NBA is more enjoyable to me than normal TV shows.  I see this kid play.  In my opinion (and my opinion is only one and its admittedly just my view, not the gospel), Love is just not as talented as his stats show.  I love his hustle but in critical moments, he's just not able to dominate and help his team win.  He's a good, very good player. He's just not all star calibre.  We all want to root for him and we all love to see a player do what he does.  But, he's not up to the calibre of the all star players, just like BBD isn't and Odom isn't and Richard Jefferson isn't and Al Horford isn't and many other very good players that I love to see.   

    So far, I have yet to see ONE of you say that you'd take him in the ALLstar game over Melo, Gasol, Durant, or Dirk (and Griffin).  That's what it takes to make him an allstar.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    Sorry, I meant the power forward for the Magic is brandon Bass and that's who was guarding Love.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneOnOne. Show OneOnOne's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    I guess I hit a nerve.  

    I stand corrected on rebounds, he nearly averages 16 boards per game. He also averages over 20 pts per game.  Doesn't sound to me like he gets shut down a lot. You point out a game where he didn't do this as much as he did in the first half.  I could show you a hundred games of SUPERSTAR players that played good in the first half and not so dominating in the second.  Your going to have to do better than that.
     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from PierceIsTheTruth. Show PierceIsTheTruth's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    all star games are just popularity contests. Best example is Yao Ming. Everyone from china votes for him and he wins a #1 spot for center. did he even play any good minutes this year? who cares about making the "all star" team.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate:
    I guess I hit a nerve.   I stand corrected on rebounds, he nearly averages 16 boards per game. He also averages over 20 pts per game.  Doesn't sound to me like he gets shut down a lot. You point out a game where he didn't do this as much as he did in the first half.  I could show you a hundred games of SUPERSTAR players that played good in the first half and not so dominating in the second.  Your going to have to do better than that.
    Posted by OneOnOne


    I'm ok with your disagreement.   I am the lone opinion on this (on this Board) but the original poster said he didn't understand why the debate continues on other places like TNT.  I'm highlighting why folks like me just see if differently than you do.   I can provide more examples but you won't agree with me no matter how many I provide.  I think if you thought about it, you'd end up agreeing that on MOST nights, All stars step up.  Not always - sometimes they just don't have it.  But, on most nights, they play well at critical points in the game and they help their team win.  I think if you do the research, you'll find that Love doesn't dominate at critical points in the game.  

    That's ok, though.   Stats are important so I see why you think his stats justify all star status.  And yes, he probably deserves it more than Odom or Butler.  

    No matter.  Its a "who cares" type of ongoing discussion.  In the end, it doesn't matter what we think. The Coaches will make the selection because he's not going to get voted in.

    Go Celts.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from hedleylamarr. Show hedleylamarr's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    Blake scored 47 today vs the Pacers.  Guess he belongs!
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from KGLove. Show KGLove's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    Griffin makes me watch Clippers games .... Love meh.. good numbers not so entertaining... Vote GRIFFIN!
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    Love - 22 & 17 last night

    Griffin - 47 points

    I think the solution may be that Tim Duncan or Dirk don't make the AS team. I'm sorry Love and Griffin both need to make it.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Karllost. Show Karllost's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate:
    Love - 22 & 17 last night Griffin - 47 points I think the solution may be that Tim Duncan or Dirk don't make the AS team. I'm sorry Love and Griffin both need to make it.
    Posted by BiasLewis


    Couldnt see Dirk not making it but Duncan I could easily place behind both Love & Griffin.  Duncan still an outstanding player but hes not even DA MAN on his team anymore. His production down and both Love & Griffin put up the numbers. Duncan makes the team on his rep... and remember, its the fans voting here.. which dilutes the All Star lineups dramatically... I mean, Yao Ming is the starting center for the West?? I rest my case...

    and all the home teams using gimmicks to get them to vote for their own players... not a real measure 

    Also, if team wins & losses are important, why dont we just eliminate players on sub 500 teams? I still dont understand the logic of winning games being such an important criteria unless we're discussing MVP.

     
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    I'll have to look at the voting. Grffin may be climbing the charts quickly. If Duncan doesn't get voted on by the fans, I don't think he makes it.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from PACelt. Show PACelt's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    If I were David Stern, I'd make sure both of these players make the team.  Dirk shouldn't play to rest his injuries.  Duncan should probably make the team as a C not a PF.  Not too many C's in the west.

    Back to my original premise, Love and Griffin may both just be the best player on bad teams, which tends to escalate numbers.  I don't think so, but even if they are so what.  I slike the idea of more teams being represented.  I'm sure Sterns would agree.  You can debate one versus another, but realistically it should be both.

    PA
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from cole-ely. Show cole-ely's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    If every team's gm had a chance to take blake or love, I bet EVERY one of them would take griffin.  Love is at his peak now.  Watch: blake is just getting started.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneOnOne. Show OneOnOne's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    In Response to Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate:
    If every team's gm had a chance to take blake or love, I bet EVERY one of them would take griffin.  Love is at his peak now.  Watch: blake is just getting started.
    Posted by cole-ely


    I am not sure about that
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Re: Love & Griffin All Star debate

    Does Blake have a jumper? Post moves? Love has the better all around game.

    Blake to me is alot like Josh Smith. Great leaper but needs to develop some go to moves.
     
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