Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from BirdLewsBias. Show BirdLewsBias's posts

    Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    When you see the way the Pacers manhandle the HEAT at times it makes me upset that Ainge/Doc decided to fall for the small ball theory instead of staying big.

    When Ainge made the trade of Perk for Green the decision was made that it was better to play small to compete with Miami. Really what should've happened was they stay big with Perk, Shaq, JON and pound the HEAT.

    It hasn't worked for us...yes Green is nice but we had the same type of frontline as the Pacers have now but we went away from it.

    Bird saw something that Ainge never saw. Bird stayed with a conventional old school lineup and now it's paying off. Ainge panicked!

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    The debate on whether that trade was wise AT THE TIME, can go on forever, but clearly by this season it was so lopsided it is comical. If we had Perk the last 2 seasons instead of 2 months of a lackadasical/nervous Jeff Green, we'd have definitely had a better shot at a title. Still think Mavs beat us in '11. Then the Thunder would have had the cap space last year w/o Perk to sign Chandler and win the '12 title over us as well.

    But being in 4 out of five finals and seeing the Heat in zero would have been fun.

    My only regret with that trade was that Ainge couldn't get his initial target James Harden, which was even more exasperating when Green had the heart condition.

    The next crippling issue was LA's STUPID decision to give away Odom, when they were title contenders, to a rival. Had that not happened Jermaine O'Neal would have been swapped for David West and Reggie Evans would have signed for the MLE instead of Wilcox. Krstic should have been retained as well and Ray traded for Mayo.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from GregCelts. Show GregCelts's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    With Danny Grainger, Indiana used to have the option to go small with him at the 4 spot.  They don`t have that luxury anymore, otherwise they would switch things up like everybody else in the league.

    The Celtics are not a good rebounding team and going small makes things worse.  I hate when the Celts go small for long period of times, but it has its benefits when it`s free-throw time.  You don`t want Shaq or Perk at the line.

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from kaktug. Show kaktug's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    clearly, we would have had much more scoring the past two years with perk in the middle. ;)

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    C - KG, Krstic

    PF - West, Bass (Battier)

    SF - Pierce, Battier (Harden)

    SG - Harden, Bradley (Mayo)

    PG - Rondo, Mayo

    That is the lineup that could have beaten the Heat the last two years.

    A. Have gotten Harden instead of Green and the Fab melo draft pick

    B. Kept Kristic instead of letting him go to Russia for nothing

    C. Gotten David West for Jermaine O'Neal and Jujuan Johnson

    D. Won over Battier to sign with us for the MLE over backing up PP (he'd get more playing time)

    E. Traded Ray for Mayo before last season or at the deadline, meaning Ray signs an extension with the Grizz for 7-8 mil a year over 3m to join Heat. Both Battier and Ray are kept off Miami.

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Number6Fan. Show Number6Fan's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    We wouldn't have had Perk for the last two years -- he was a FA and he was asking for more money to resign than we would have been willing to pay.  Green in trade (esp. when we had no sub for PP) was muchy better than losing him for zip.  Can we get off this topic now?

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiggerThanMyBrady. Show BiggerThanMyBrady's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    Hold on, are we really wishing the Celtics didn't have Jeff Green right now? I don't know what you guys are seeing but Jeff Green is turning into quite the well-rounded basketball player and Kendrick Perkins can't get any PT (Collison has really taken his spot in every big playoff game). It's great to talk about all the hypotheticals of what COULD have happened if they had Perk, but they don't. They have Green, who in the right mindset dropped 43 against the Heat and can man-up LeBron about as good as anyone could do it. I thought at the time it was a weird trade, but c'mon guys. You can't be serious about the results now.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaCeltics. Show DaCeltics's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    You can argue that we were better with Perk and Nate, than Green and Fat Jelo.

    There are other wing defenders available that can knock down threes that didn't cost as much as Jeff. Pietrus, Matt Barnes, Danny Green.

    Whatever happened to that SF leaper Toronto had? Forgot his name. Went to Cleveland maybe? 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaCeltics. Show DaCeltics's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    Jamario Moon! Where is he now?

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiggerThanMyBrady. Show BiggerThanMyBrady's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    Nate is the ringleader of the irrational confidence guys (JR Smith is second in command). He also doesn't play defense. I think you're forgetting that Perk can't score. He doesn't have anything close to the offensive game that Hibbert has. That's why Indiana has a chance. It's not just the rebounding and the defense. They can kick it into the low post to either West or Hibbert and have a good chance of scoring.

    In terms of wing players, yeah Danny Green would be nice. But San Antonio knows what they have with him and he seems to enjoy it there. Pietrus doesn't have any knees left and Matt Barnes is streaky.

    I'd rather ride with Jeff Green (who had an outstanding finish from about February on) than any of those guys. He's making 9 mil right now and has shown the ability to get it done. He can attack the basket, shoot from all over the floor, and plays good defense. My only knocks on him are he isn't aggressive enough and he doesn't rebound all too well for a guy that size. That's where Sully comes in, who's an above average rebounder for a guy his size.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from SFBostonFan. Show SFBostonFan's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    I agree with BiggerThanMyBrady's post above !

     

    I believe we would have won vs Lakers in 2010 had Perk not gone down in game 6. And maybe too we'd won in 2011 with Perk.  But, he really is a muscle man who could defend biggies, Bynum, Gasol, Howard etc. and as Cs had a younger KG and Sheed, he wasn't needed to score. With OKC and Durant, Westbook and they had Harden too, he wasn't obtained for scoring. But, if available now, I'd pass as he's single digit scoring, rebounding & still can't make foul shots. KG is older so we really need a Hibbert type who can give us 20 pts/10 rebs and, yup, Perk would be fine in addition to a prolific center but not at the salary he would want.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    Perk is and was always awful.  Could he have kept Rondo inspired in 2011 is anybody's guess.  All the moves Danny was kept from were his fault.  He came up with very little in what could have kept the title chances alive.  Tony Allen jumps out as one of his most preventable mistakes.  DA made it all happen in 2007 and that cannot be ignored.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BirdLewsBias. Show BirdLewsBias's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    It's not just Perk i'm talking about. i'm talking about the philosophy to go small when the HEAT signed the Big 3. This incompasses signing Bass and not trying to keep guys like Perk, Steemer, Hollins. We kept getting rid of every big man we had in order to play small ball.

    We were on the right track. We had Perk and Nate and all of a sudden we took this U turn and changed the entire philosphy and make up of the team to try to match up with the HEAT. We shouldn't have allowed them to dictate how the C's were built. The formula was working but Ainge tends to tinker too much.

    Ok, if we had one signing/trade to buy back or sell again who would it be?? Is it TA, Posey, Perk, Shaq, Steemer, Bass, Green, RA... I would take Perk back because it would've kept KG at PF.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    In response to Number6Fan's comment:

    We wouldn't have had Perk for the last two years -- he was a FA and he was asking for more money to resign than we would have been willing to pay.  Green in trade (esp. when we had no sub for PP) was muchy better than losing him for zip.  Can we get off this topic now?



    Perk's free ageny cost was the same money we paid Green... so basically the hypothetical is had the C's OVERPAID for Perk would they have been a better team

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    In response to BirdLewsBias' comment:

    It's not just Perk i'm talking about. i'm talking about the philosophy to go small when the HEAT signed the Big 3. This incompasses signing Bass and not trying to keep guys like Perk, Steemer, Hollins. We kept getting rid of every big man we had in order to play small ball.

    We were on the right track. We had Perk and Nate and all of a sudden we took this U turn and changed the entire philosphy and make up of the team to try to match up with the HEAT. We shouldn't have allowed them to dictate how the C's were built. The formula was working but Ainge tends to tinker too much.

    Ok, if we had one signing/trade to buy back or sell again who would it be?? Is it TA, Posey, Perk, Shaq, Steemer, Bass, Green, RA... I would take Perk back because it would've kept KG at PF.



    After his knee injury KG was no longer the 20/10 PF he used to be who could switch out to the wing and guard a SF. He was a C and Doc/Danny knew it by 2011.

    The issue wasn't Perk, it was not getting an upgrade to Baby/Bass to pair alongside KG as of 2011 or so.

    If I could change ONE thing it would be to have never had Artest's dirty play bruising Ray in the leg happen, making him go like 0-16 from 3 in games 3-5 at home in the '10 finals we would have won in 5 if he hit like 2-5 on 3's in game 3.

    One trade/signing i would have changed would have been holding out for Harden over Green. You need superstars and the Beard is one.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BirdLewsBias. Show BirdLewsBias's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    In response to rameakap's comment:

    In response to Number6Fan's comment:

     

    We wouldn't have had Perk for the last two years -- he was a FA and he was asking for more money to resign than we would have been willing to pay.  Green in trade (esp. when we had no sub for PP) was muchy better than losing him for zip.  Can we get off this topic now?

     



    Perk's free ageny cost was the same money we paid Green... so basically the hypothetical is had the C's OVERPAID for Perk would they have been a better team

     



    I say yes because we wouldn't have lost a year of Perk like we did Green with heart surgery. We would've had Perk and Steemer.

    Keep in mind we not only lost Green but wes lost Wilcox too...but had we not lost Wilcox we probably wouldn't have signed Steemer or Hollins. Oh it's so nice to look back with 20/20 vision.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    2008 - DeAndre Jordan over J.R. Giddens and Matt Barnes/Birdman FA signings, splitting the MLE

    2009 - Ariza full MLE over Sheed

    2010 - Butterfly effect means no Perk torn ACL. Trade Perk and Tony (sign and trade) to OKC for Harden and Krstic right after winning 2010 championship

    2011 - Find a way to get David West

    2012 - Ray for Mayo 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiggerThanMyBrady. Show BiggerThanMyBrady's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    In order to "go big" you have to have a big that can score. Like DeMarcus, Hibbert, Gasol. Again, rebounding is great, but if you can't go into the low post and score then going big doesn't really matter. Tyson Chandler, great rim protector, great pick and roll player, zero low post offensive game. So would the Knicks beat the Heat? No. Why? Cause they can't score in the low post. The Heat close out on shooters better than any team in the NBA (just ask Steve Novak). So those three's the Knicks usually hit probably wouldn't fall as much. Perk doesn't score in the low post off anything other than a tip in. KG can score down there every once in a while, but he's more of a stretch 4, which helps with spacing.

    Going big is a great idea, but the Pacers have the guys to really execute that. Hibbert, West, Mahimi (a little bit) is a great rotation of guys. Plus they have George and Stephenson to bug LeBron and Wade. George Hill is a great distributor and can get into the lane to collapse the D.

    That being said give me Jeff Green over all those guys not named Tony Allen. Tony is a defensive specialist, but with him, Bradley, Lee, and Green I'd like to see someone score not in the low-post.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jefflippa. Show Jefflippa's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    Dear Lord, send us a true old fashioned low post center.

    Is Bynum worth a shot?

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    In response to BirdLewsBias' comment:

    In response to rameakap's comment:

     

    In response to Number6Fan's comment:

     

    We wouldn't have had Perk for the last two years -- he was a FA and he was asking for more money to resign than we would have been willing to pay.  Green in trade (esp. when we had no sub for PP) was muchy better than losing him for zip.  Can we get off this topic now?

     



    Perk's free ageny cost was the same money we paid Green... so basically the hypothetical is had the C's OVERPAID for Perk would they have been a better team

     

     



    I say yes because we wouldn't have lost a year of Perk like we did Green with heart surgery. We would've had Perk and Steemer.

     

    Keep in mind we not only lost Green but wes lost Wilcox too...but had we not lost Wilcox we probably wouldn't have signed Steemer or Hollins. Oh it's so nice to look back with 20/20 vision.



    Had we kept Perk we'd have had a major issue finding a backup SF for Pierce with Marquis having that spinal injury. If there was a deal for a solid backup 3 that we could have gotten for some combo of Nate, JO, Wafer, Daniels and our '11 first rd pick keeping Perk would have made a whole lot more sense.

    The Grizz got Battier at that deadline but gave up former #2 pick Thabeet and a lotto protected first. The Rockets clearly would see more value in trying to develop a 23 year old over taking the ugly contract of a 33 year old like JO or taking Nate... even if we were throwing in a pick in the mid-20's.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    In response to BiggerThanMyBrady's comment:

    In order to "go big" you have to have a big that can score. Like DeMarcus, Hibbert, Gasol. Again, rebounding is great, but if you can't go into the low post and score then going big doesn't really matter. Tyson Chandler, great rim protector, great pick and roll player, zero low post offensive game. So would the Knicks beat the Heat? No. Why? Cause they can't score in the low post. The Heat close out on shooters better than any team in the NBA (just ask Steve Novak). So those three's the Knicks usually hit probably wouldn't fall as much. Perk doesn't score in the low post off anything other than a tip in. KG can score down there every once in a while, but he's more of a stretch 4, which helps with spacing.

    Going big is a great idea, but the Pacers have the guys to really execute that. Hibbert, West, Mahimi (a little bit) is a great rotation of guys. Plus they have George and Stephenson to bug LeBron and Wade. George Hill is a great distributor and can get into the lane to collapse the D.

    That being said give me Jeff Green over all those guys not named Tony Allen. Tony is a defensive specialist, but with him, Bradley, Lee, and Green I'd like to see someone score not in the low-post.



    Correct

    Hibbert and West are showing themselves to be 18-24ppg and 10-14rpg guys this playoffs.

    If we had KG and Perk they would be 14-18ppg 10-14rpg and 4-6ppg 5-9rpg guys. not enough to make the Heat pay.

    That is why if we had West over Perk and the offense of Krstic, we'd have had a good shot. but not with Perk over Green, Green's D alone on LeBron would help more than what Perk gives over Bass. We don't know what SF Danny could have come up with. Unless we got Battier and kept him from Miami, which is what I'd have wanted.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    There were 4 SF's moved at the 2011 deadline.

    Melo

    Green

    Gerald Wallace

    Battier

    Had the Celtics been able to get Battier or Gerald Wallace and kept Perk I'd have been all for it. But really I don't see how that could have happened.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: Miscalculation by Ainge & Doc

    In response to Jefflippa's comment:

    Dear Lord, send us a true old fashioned low post center.

    Is Bynum worth a shot?

     


    It all depends on what type of contract he gets.  Any team is taking a big risk if you have to sign him for a significant amount of money.   He hasn't had many productive seasons and I don't believe next season will be any different. 

     

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