New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012

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    Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012

    Compare that team to the leap the Bulls made this year:

    Rondo has to be a superstar (like Rose transformed himself)

    Jeff Green has to be an 18-19ppg 2nd banana in 34-36 mins (like Deng)

    If we got Kaman and Varejao they would likely combine to give us 23/17. Noah and Boozer give a 28/19. but I'll take JON and KG over Gibson and Asik still (even if its a guy like green who has to cover the freak athelete in Taj). Its an even frontcourt.

    Ray is better than Korver. Pierce and Dwest are a better duo than Gibson and Brewer. Baron Davis is better than Keith Bogans.

    So whats the issue?

    It all depends on Rondo/Green making leaps. A deep formidable healthy bench keeping the big 3 rested and the Celtics one of the top 2 seeds. And Danny getting it thru his head that Howard is not coming and 2014 is the 'real' year to have cap space in.
     
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    Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012

    I have very much enjoyed this sunday of having conversations with myself:-)

    Fierce I would love it if you took the time to respond to as much of that as you can....
     
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    Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012

    As long as we are talking possibilities.....

    I am unclear on the amnesty proposal in the new CBA under discussion.  It allows teams to wipe out one contract while still paying the player.  The teams can do this today by just releasing the player.  So I have to assume that the new proposal will allow the teams to keep the player while not counting his salary towards the cap.

    So here are the series of steps I hope for/ wish for/ propose:

    1)  The Celts wipe out Paul Pierce's contract as soon as the new CBA is in place.  That allows them to have massive cap space in 2012.
    2)  Trade the Clips first rounder in 2012 for a top 5 pick this year.  After all, everybody is saying that this draft sucks while 2012 will be stellar.  So a later lottery pick next year should be worth an early pick this year.  Also, the new CBA will definitely be restricting rookie salaries as well.
    3)  Leverage the restrictions imposed by the new CBA to sign Jeff Green to a reasonable deal.
    4)  Sign Kristic to a 1-year deal as insurance.  Looks like the new CBA will disallow sign-and-trade.  That means that Baby trade scenarios will not be workable.
    5)  Attempt a trade for Chris Kaman with Kristic and Sheed's contract.
    6)  Draft a quality big man with the lottery pick and roster fillers with second round pick.
    7)  In 2012, convince Ray and KG to play for minimum (aka Shaq).  Use that lure to sign a big time free agent or sign multiple free agents.

    This keeps the hopes alive for this year while keeping the cap space for 2012 and beyond.
     
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    Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012

    In Response to Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012:
    In Response to Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012 : rame, I never said a team composed of older players. What I said was an NBA superstar that won a championship after the age of 32.  When Rodman and the Bulls won from 1996-1998 Michael Jordan was the superstar of the team. Rodman was just part of the supporting cast. Robert Horry was never a superstar. David Robinson never won a championship without Tim Duncan. The Spurs won in 1999, 2003, 2005, and 2007 because of Tim Duncan, their superstar. Clyde Drexler never won a championship when he was with the Blazers. It was only when he agreed to become Hakeem's sidekick that he won a championship. Hakeem was the superstar of the Houston Rockets, not Clyde Drexler. Bill Cartwright? Not even close to super let alone a superstar. Glen Rice was the 3rd option behind Shaq and Kobe, so he definitely was not a superstar when he was with the Lakers. Shaq was 34 years old when he was with the Heat but Dwyane Wade was clearly "the man" when the Heat won in 2006. Dwyane Wade was just a 24-year old superstar when he won a championship and became the Finals MVP in 2006. Again, the last superstar to win a championship after the age of 32 was Michael Jordan.  And I still can't find an NBA team that won a championship averaging less than 40 rebounds per game.
    Posted by Fiercest34


    and my point was that Rondo has to be the superstar

    the big 3 just have to be 3 of the 6 best players on the team

    And Green has to be a James Worthy/Joe Dumars type player.

    The formula of superstar PG, 1-2 'young' borderline all-sta talents, and still useful vets just past thier primes (and depth) winning a title was done on the last two 80's Lakers teams (after Jabbar passed the torch) and the late 80's Pistons.
     
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    Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012

    In Response to Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012:
    rame, since you already agreed that Ainge's moves points to 2012, that means the Celts will not go after Baron Davis and Anderson Varejao. No matter what Jeff Green does next year, in the playoffs you will still see the Big 3 and Rondo on the floor in the last 5 minutes of the game. Maybe Jeff Green will be the PF and KG the Center, but it won't solve the Celtics' rebounding woes. Even if Jeff Green gets 18 ppg the problem remains, how can the Celts get more rebounds? The Celts will not win another championship with the Big 3 leading the way. KG has become stretch 4, Ray has become a one dimensional player, and Pierce is on the decline. And until Rondo does a better job shooting jumpers and FTs he remains a liability in the last 5 minutes of the game.  
    Posted by Fiercest34


    So b/c Ainge is making moves for cap space in 2012.... I am not allowed to talk about how to add a winning/better possible championship group of players to next years club if it means ruining that cap space?

    Thought police? No chance Danny changes his mind? No chance someone else trades for Howard this summer?

    So in your opinion Fierce we prob can't put together a 42-44 rebound team w/ sign and trades and the MLE offered for a 1 year situation so I guess we are in for another year of the 3 seed and a 2nd rd exit.

    Yuck.

    Then when we don't get Howard, Ainge will have WASTED 2-3 years of possible championships b/c of skimping to guys like Posey and TA and not adding a better C or backup PG b/c of cost and/or ruining 2012.

    The focus will shift to 2041 when we don't get Howard ... which is where it should have been all along.

    Great... so excited for the future you keep talking about Fierce.
     
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    Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012

    In Response to Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012:
    In Response to Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012 : Rondo will never become a superstar until he improves his FT shooting and becomes decent outside shooter. It's been 5 years and Rondo has yet to shoot 70% from the stripe and opponents are still leaving him open when he's on the perimeter.  Jeff Green has never averaged more than 16.0 ppg when he was a starter with OKC. Even when he was playing 37 minutes per game in OKC his best scoring average was just 16.5 ppg. It remains to be seen if Jeff Green can become an All-Star or close to being an All-Star player. Right now Jeff Green is just the 2nd coming of Derrick McKey. 
    Posted by Fiercest34


    We;ve seen in this series what a crappy distributer Westbrook is...  He just doesn't pass the ball.   Do you think that maybe has something to do with why Green has had trouble scoring in the 20s


     
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    Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012

    In Response to Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012:
    In Response to Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012 : Rondo will never become a superstar until he improves his FT shooting and becomes decent outside shooter. It's been 5 years and Rondo has yet to shoot 70% from the stripe and opponents are still leaving him open when he's on the perimeter.  Jeff Green has never averaged more than 16.0 ppg when he was a starter with OKC. Even when he was playing 37 minutes per game in OKC his best scoring average was just 16.5 ppg. It remains to be seen if Jeff Green can become an All-Star or close to being an All-Star player. Right now Jeff Green is just the 2nd coming of Derrick McKey. 
    Posted by Fiercest34


    Captain obvious:-)

    I am saying that in order for us to win building around those guys and not crossing our fingers for a DH miracle thpose 2 certainly have to improve. At 24-25 they still can.

    What Green did out of position as a 13 shot a game power forward with a 19 shot SF and 15 shot PG is nothing like what he'd do getting 16-17 shots a game from a 12-13 assist PG.

    If you think Rondo will never become someone who nails that 20 footer with ease and shoots 75-80% from the line than we should trade him right now. B/c he's most successful w/ 3 all-star 45-50% shooters next to him. There is little chance we can get such players in their early 30's around him again anytime soon.

    So it has to become a team geared to Rondo's strengths. Green is a player I see fitting well. But Rondo HAS TO HAS TO HAS shoot better. A 16-18ppg Rondo who leads the league in assists and triple doubles.

    F the 2012 dream. Assume better of Rondo/Green. Add the 2-3 studs to make us deep and scary, extend the window 2 years w/ rest and a limited role for the big 3 and roll the dice. In 2014 you can pick choose from number of mid 20's borderline stars to add to the club. It is not Dwight Howard or nothing that summer.
     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012

    Fierce I became a Celtic fan during the '88 Bird-Nique shootout.

    I do not remember the '86 title.

    I remember wanting to smash things as early as elementary school b/c I looked at 55 win run and gun fun teams in '91 and '92 and felt that if they just had Tim Hardaway, Vlade Divac and Danny Ainge, instead of Bagley, Kleine and Pinckney, and rested the big 3 instead of buring them out, we could have had a shot at knocking off the Bulls.

    I see that same scenario now. We have our big 3, heathier than the old version was in 91. We have Hardaway (not the shooter, just the all-star young PG) and Reggie Lewis in Rondo and Green. We can get guys to add to that core and make a title run or two... then worry about things in 2014.

    Dwight Howard prob doesn't want to come here. I seriously doubt he will.

    But I will shut up now and wait for Danny's master plan to unfold.

    There is nothing more I can really say on this.
     
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    Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012

    Step 1. Ainge and boston never made a trade that amounted to anything unless they were gifted it by McFale.
    Step 2. 20+ years of boston insignificance proves I'm right.
    Step 3. The only tradable commodity is a pg who can't hit a barndoor from 3 feet.
    Step 4. Boston is a horrible place to live particularly in the winter. Get used to the fact that unless McFale lands the Rockets job, no one of any talent wants to play in beantown.
     
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    Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012

    In Response to Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012:
    In Response to Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012 : Rondo will never become a superstar until he improves his FT shooting and becomes decent outside shooter. It's been 5 years and Rondo has yet to shoot 70% from the stripe and opponents are still leaving him open when he's on the perimeter.  Jeff Green has never averaged more than 16.0 ppg when he was a starter with OKC. Even when he was playing 37 minutes per game in OKC his best scoring average was just 16.5 ppg. It remains to be seen if Jeff Green can become an All-Star or close to being an All-Star player. Right now Jeff Green is just the 2nd coming of Derrick McKey. 
    Posted by Fiercest34


    Point well taken.  I will add a few considerations while digressing from the original nature of your discussion.

    Rondo's problems are mental.  Supposedly, he does OK in practice but he is not able to bring it to the game.  Also, he is young.  But very competitive.  We can hope that he will be able to overcome his inhibition and improve.  After all Jason Kidd has become a decent shooter after being abysmal most of his career.  I expect Rondo to make some serious strides growing up this off season.

    I am not very high on Jeff Green.  But I also note that he has played out of position his whole career until recently.  There was no real room for him to play 3 in OKC.  He is not a 4.  I am hoping that he will discover his game at 3, given an opportunity in Boston.
     
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    Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012

    In Response to Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012:
    In Response to Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012 : Point well taken.  I will add a few considerations while digressing from the original nature of your discussion. Rondo's problems are mental.  Supposedly, he does OK in practice but he is not able to bring it to the game.  Also, he is young.  But very competitive.  We can hope that he will be able to overcome his inhibition and improve.  After all Jason Kidd has become a decent shooter after being abysmal most of his career.  I expect Rondo to make some serious strides growing up this off season. I am not very high on Jeff Green.  But I also note that he has played out of position his whole career until recently.  There was no real room for him to play 3 in OKC.  He is not a 4.  I am hoping that he will discover his game at 3, given an opportunity in Boston.
    Posted by prakash


    I like the idea of Green running with Rondo. They both play 36 mins. I can see Green getting 18-19 points and Rondo 16-17 w/ 12-13 assists.

    Yes the shot has to get better. Even just 75% at the line and more confidence causing more coverage on that mid-range J is fine from RR. He did hav nagging injuries. It is HIS TEAM next year. He must run w/ it or risk a possible trade if the team is not one of the top 3 in the league in Feb.

    Pierce off the bench is a great idea. Steal that 6th man award from the punk Odom. He can get 8-12 mins at SG and 20-24 at SF. He and Green can give 48 mins of rested defense on the Deng/Melo/LBJ's who have to play 42-44 mins a game in the playoffs.

    I like Ray at 26-28 mins having his legs in the 4th quarter and staying a 50-40-90 guy. Like Reggie at 36. Just more rest please.

    I like DWest in a healthy season, expanded role, 12 mins at PG and another 8-12 at SG. Gritty defense on guys like Wade and Rose sparing the starters.

    I like JON to keep getting better and being a 14 PER guy who can defend the rim, make high % shots, and block 2 shots in 16-20 minutes.

    and I like KG as a 24-28 minute guy, rested on MANY back-to-backs in the regular season, and having his legs. No 28-18's are expected but no 8 and 5's either. Solid 30-32 minute, 14-11's in the playoffs each game is all we'd want.

    That simply leaves a BIG HOLE for a big man who can play 32-34 minutes and get us 14-16 points, 8-9 boards and 1-2 blocks. His name is not Kristic. Perk wa snot even that guy.

    I think the best name so far has been Chris Kaman, whose 1 year contract won't ruin cap space and a guy who doesn't fit into the Clippers future plans. Who knows if we can sign and trade BBD and Krstic but I think them and a pick is fair value. Avery may be needed to make it a no-brainer for the Clips. 
     
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    Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012

    In Response to Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012:
    . The Celts didn't get KG and Ray when the Celtics were a playoff team, the Celts got Ray and KG when the Celts were the 2nd worst team in the NBA in the 2006-07 season.
    Posted by Fiercest34


    Wasn't that a ripper!!

    Unless McFale gets the Rockets job, you celt fans can expect another 20+ years of dismal failure!
     
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    Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012

    In Response to Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012:
    In Response to Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012 : rame, we already saw what happened in the 1990s and early 2000s when the Celtics tried to make the playoffs every year but really had no shot at winning a championship. The Celtics only became a championship team when they got the 2nd worst record in the NBA in 2007 and got the #5 pick of the 2007 Draft.  It's not a guarantee the Celts will get Dwight in 2012, that's for sure. The worst that can happen is the Celts don't get Dwight and end up becoming a lottery team in 2012. But I'd rather have that than delay the inevitable. Why wait for 2014 when we know the Celts are not going to win another championship if KG, Ray, and Pierce are still playing for the Celts? Again, the problem remains, only Michael Jordan won a championship when he was above the age of 32 and I still can't remember an NBA team winning a championship averaging less than 40 rebounds per game.
    Posted by Fiercest34


    and my solution remains.

    Rondo has to become Magic/Isiah of the 87-88-89-90 championship teams.

    Magic was a 26 PER guy. That is LeBron territory and there is little chance Rondo can get there. But 21-22 isn't that far off. And he CAN get there.

    Isiah was a 17 PER guy 87-92 who was an 18ppg, 9 assist per game PG. He was only a career 76% FT shooter. Rondo is a 17 PER guy NOW.

    I expect Rondo to be a 16-12-6 next season who shoots 73-76% from the line. That would make his PER jump from a 3 year avg of 18.3 up into the 22-23 range. That is Deron Williams the last 3 years. Jason Kidd was basically at 18-19 his entire career. He had two 20+ PER seasons and was 2nd in MVP and went to the finals one of those times.

     
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    Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012

    The team I mentioned that we can put around Rondo will be better than the ones put around Isiah and Kidd that won 2 titles, went to 5 NBA finals and 8 East finals.

    As for rebounds...

    If we had Varejao and Kaman, combining for an avg of 17 rebounds a game last 5 years.... instead of a cobbled together Shaq-Semih-Perk-Krstic frontcourt and the pitiful 5.5 boards in 28 minutes fat stump big baby gave us.. how many more boards is THAT a game? 4-5-6??

    PLUS

    An entire season of DWest and Baron Davis, good rebounding guards, would be better than Nate and Wafer. There is at least another 1-2 a game.

    And despite not being knows as a great rebounder I'm sure the 6'8" Green will get more as a SF than the 6'6" Marquis. 1-2 more.

    Plus a whole year of JO as the backup C, getting his 4 boards in 16-20 mins.

    The team I put out there, that kills the 2012 cap, will also KILL the boards, to a tune of 43-45 a game easily.

     
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    Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012

    In Response to Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012:
    In Response to Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012 : and my solution remains. Rondo has to become Magic/Isiah of the 87-88-89-90 championship teams. Magic was a 26 PER guy. That is LeBron territory and there is little chance Rondo can get there. But 21-22 isn't that far off. And he CAN get there. Isiah was a 17 PER guy 87-92 who was an 18ppg, 9 assist per game PG. He was only a career 76% FT shooter. Rondo is a 17 PER guy NOW. I expect Rondo to be a 16-12-6 next season who shoots 73-76% from the line. That would make his PER jump from a 3 year avg of 18.3 up into the 22-23 range. That is Deron Williams the last 3 years. Jason Kidd was basically at 18-19 his entire career. He had two 20+ PER seasons and was 2nd in MVP and went to the finals one of those times.
    Posted by rameakap


    This coming from the guy who said resting brick mid-season in 4th quarters was part of docs plans to have brick adjust to playoff 4th quarter pressure.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
     
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    Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012

    In Response to Re: New "NBA" Rebuild Plan - thinking ahead of 2012:
    rame, there's no way Jeff Green would get 36 minutes per game if Ray Allen and Paul Pierce are still playing for the Celtics.
    Posted by Fiercest34


    Why not?

    Green can play 28 mins at SF and 8 at PF (when KG swing to Center for the 'offense' lineup)

    Pierce can play 20 mins at SF and 12 at SG.

    Ray can play 28 mins at SG and DWest can play 8.

    That is regular season. Come playoffs you take 8 mins from Green and give 4 back to both PP and Ray.
     
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