NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from CAPITALIST_AVENGER. Show CAPITALIST_AVENGER's posts

    NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    i love russ, but upon further consideration, i think mr. chamberlain has really been disrespected and underrated esp in comparison to mr. russell purely on a basketball basis. russ has the rings that will forever keep him in the top 10 but does that mean robert horry should be ahead of a karl malone. this is wilt's 50th anniversary of the 100-point game. also just yesterday as rondo went off and started joining elite historical company, i couldnt believe how much chamberlain was mentioned as the ONLY guy to ever do 22-25-21 in 1968. again, digest that for a second. the man had 25 rebounds and 21 assists in ONE game. make all the excuses about the era, his team or the system, that is simply phenomenal. apart from free throw shooting, the guy was skilled and dominant in every way.

    i think after Mj, wilt should be #2 indefinitely not mr. russell. no way is kobe anywhere at his level. think about it. MJ had 31 career 50-point games and we all know Mj was a dominant scorer. now get ready for this. wilt had 45 50-point games just in the 1962 season when he scored 100! what took jordan an entire career, wilt did in ONE season. the man also AVERAGED 50.1 point season during that season. the man also averaged a triple double that year. think about that, a freakin 7'footer dominating in that way.  hakeem olajuwon is the most skilled big man i ever saw and shaq was the most dominant, yet compared to wilt both guys were mere scrubs, 3rd level types. the man is on the scale of gretzky in terms of his peers when it comes to dominance and skills.

    with all the stuff about russ being a great defender, wilt stilll dominated him in most of their matchups. russ had superior teams so wilt ended up losing most of the time, but thats not his fault. had wilt played under red, he still would have been dominant but would have one rings too. like giving peyton manning to belichick rather than brady.. oh never mind.. you get the point.

    LASTLY, since many want to give points to russ for stuff he did and went through off the court, i say lets do the same with wilt. 25,000 women better served than at mcdonalds further speaks to the man's dominance, skills and discipline. i say #2 with russ at #3 is about right. kobe can get #4 stature with shaq at #5 til a lebron james, kevin love, durant, rondo or even pierce can someday crash the party. 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Number6Fan. Show Number6Fan's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    Does Wilt deserve respect?  Yes.  But there's some revisionist thinking here.  Wilt did not "dominate" Russ during most of their matchups.  He was the most formidable force on the court during his era, and probably ever (even more than MJ).  But as Russ said, whatever individual record you set, it is likely to be broken sometime (well, maybe not 100 pts.), but the championship is up there forever.   Could he have cleaned Wilt's clock on an individual basis?  Of course not.  But he played him as tough as anyone, and in the end Russ helped produce a win ina way that Wilt couldn't against the C's.  And on a player-to-player basis, Wilt's best Philly and LA teams were NOT worse than Russ's C's.  He was a great player, and an unstoppable force, but Russ is still No. One (or at worst ties for it with MJ).
    cheers --
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ANONMD08. Show ANONMD08's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    Bill Russell used to give Wilt fits every time they played.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Lakerstroll. Show Lakerstroll's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    Wilt, at any time up to his retirement, would dominate today. Russell at 6'9'' would  still be very good, but no way dominating. Wilt today, with free agency, would be surrounded by an excellent cast and would probably win 10 titles. Russell even with great backup would be far behind.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    Wilt was clearly the superior athlete and more able to do individual things.  Russell was the ultimate basketball player and able to make the team win.  It wasn't just with the Celtics, it was with the San Fran University and Olympics, as well.

    Russell was the most intelligent and thoughtful and caluculating and competitive player.   Most young folks know MJ for how great he was but they don't know Russ for all the things he understood about the game, people, and life.  Russell used all those things to make sure his team won.  Wilt, on the other hand, just dominated the stat sheet and his individual opponent.

    Wlt was one of if not THE most dominant players to ever play the game.  Individually better than Russ.  But, like Lebron is physically more talented than MJ or Kobe, Lebron doesn't know how to make his teammates better and play the clutch role the way Kobe, MJ, Bird, and Magic could.   Physical superiority does not always make you the better player.  Its a TEAM game, folks.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Number6Fan. Show Number6Fan's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    In Response to Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?:
    Wilt, at any time up to his retirement, would dominate today. Russell at 6'9'' would  still be very good, but no way dominating. Wilt today, with free agency, would be surrounded by an excellent cast and would probably win 10 titles. Russell even with great backup would be far behind.
    Posted by Lakerstroll


    Wilt was surrounded by excellent casts many times, but didn't come close to even 3 championships.  You have little sense of the league back then, and even less sense of team.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from painter. Show painter's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    In Response to Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?:
    In Response to Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL? : Wilt was surrounded by excellent casts many times, but didn't come close to even 3 championships.  You have little sense of the league back then, and even less sense of team.
    Posted by Number6Fan


    That's absolutely correct. Lest we forget that Wilt played for some more than decent LA and Philadelphia teams, he couldn't affect a series win, mostly because of Russell. Not only would Russell paly Wilt better than anyone else, but he still found a way to be his normal defensive presence to help other defenders. As long as basketball was and cintinues to be a team game played five on a side, that kind of "team" ball will dominate over an amalgam of individuals who can put up person atats but not make a supreme effort to make the team better and successful. Wilt was traded a number of times because of his singular skills, not because of his ability to be winner in the team sense. His outrageous assist numbers came because of triple-team defenses. He was a stat hound but not a player like PP, RA, or KG who have shown their willingness to give(individual stats/glory to get (a championship). Wilt must have been mathmaticaly inclined based on his love of his own numbers.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Elven 32. Show Elven 32's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    In Response to Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?:
    Bill Russell used to give Wilt fits every time they played.
    Posted by ANONMD08


    Fits? Try this:

    Wilt averaged 28 & 28 against Russell.

    Wilt had a game high 62pts against Russell and 6 other 50+ games.

    Wilt's record 55 rebound game was against Russell, and he had six other 40+ rebound games vs. Bill.

    Russell only had one 40+ rebound night against Wilt.
    In fact, Wilt won 9 of 11 rebounding titles when both were active.

    Wilt is still the only center to lead the league in assists for a season and almost did it twice.

    Russell found a system that he could fit into perfectly with a better support cast and so won more championships.

    But when it comes down to who is the superior player, Wilt wins hands down!

    Think of it like this, compare Ray against Kobe. Yeah, it's that easy.




     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from jtkl. Show jtkl's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    In Response to Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?:
    In Response to Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL? : Fits? Try this: Wilt averaged 28 & 28 against Russell. Wilt had a game high 62pts against Russell and 6 other 50+ games. Wilt's record 55 rebound game was against Russell, and he had six other 40+ rebound games vs. Bill. Russell only had one 40+ rebound night against Wilt. In fact, Wilt won 9 of 11 rebounding titles when both were active. Wilt is still the only center to lead the league in assists for a season and almost did it twice. Russell found a system that he could fit into perfectly with a better support cast and so won more championships. But when it comes down to who is the superior player, Wilt wins hands down! Think of it like this, compare Ray against Kobe. Yeah, it's that easy.
    Posted by Elven 32



    Kind of like Pierce over Kobe :) 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Red-16Russ-11. Show Red-16Russ-11's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    In Response to Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?:
    Wilt, at any time up to his retirement, would dominate today. Russell at 6'9'' would  still be very good, but no way dominating. Wilt today, with free agency, would be surrounded by an excellent cast and would probably win 10 titles. Russell even with great backup would be far behind.
    Posted by Lakerstroll


    Idiotic post - Wilt had Elgin Baylor and Jerry West on his team!!
    Russ would still dominate today, the man was a 7 foot high jumper.  He would have bulked up ( he has said this) and stayed in great shape all year round (again, he said this).  Wilt would still be as great  - maybe better, but to downplay anything Bill Russell has ever done shows your complete hatred for the Celtics, and why no one can take you seriously on this forum.


     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mark from Ct. Show Mark from Ct's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    This is a discussion that does not have an answer and arguing about it is a waste of time.
    I think it is reasonable to be left this way:

    Chamberlain was a better offensive player.
    Russell was a better defensive player.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    Russell's teams simply won championships.....Wilt's teams hardly ever did...this goes for college and the pros....both were surrounded with unique talent...but Russ never lost a Game 7 and was 12-0 in series deciding games....even at the end when the Celtics were old (Russ & Sam were in the last year of their careers) the Celtics beat the younger and more talented Lakers.....Wilt was a great player...Russ was a great player as well....maybe not as talented as Wilt....but Russ made his teams the ultimate winners....from his first year in the league to his last.....and most times in between....even as guys retired and the names changed....or as Russ put it...."the spokes change but the wheel just keeps on turning...."
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    In Response to Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?:
    In Response to Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL? : Fits? Try this: Wilt averaged 28 & 28 against Russell. Wilt had a game high 62pts against Russell and 6 other 50+ games. Wilt's record 55 rebound game was against Russell, and he had six other 40+ rebound games vs. Bill. Russell only had one 40+ rebound night against Wilt. In fact, Wilt won 9 of 11 rebounding titles when both were active. Wilt is still the only center to lead the league in assists for a season and almost did it twice. Russell found a system that he could fit into perfectly with a better support cast and so won more championships. But when it comes down to who is the superior player, Wilt wins hands down! Think of it like this, compare Ray against Kobe. Yeah, it's that easy.
    Posted by Elven 32

    You know nothing. Wilt never won a championship at Kansas,  never won an NBA title until Philly put together a super team in 1968 when Russell had gotten older. Still he won his last year against your Fakers with Wilt, Baylor and West choking on it.  Russell won 11 out of 13 times. It would have been 12 out of 13 but he was out for the 1958 series with the Hawks. 

    Russell won two consecutive NCAA titles with USF.  Russell won a gold medal in basketball in Melbourne in 1956.  Wilt never did.

    Russell dominated Wilt in a way you had to feel sorry for him. A frontrunning clown like you should know that.

    Russell makes Jordan seem like a loser. The greatest winner in the history of basketball and maybe the greatest winner in sports history.  Russell's teams always won and he was the one constant.  


     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    In Response to Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?:
    In Response to Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL? : Fits? Try this: Wilt averaged 28 & 28 against Russell. Wilt had a game high 62pts against Russell and 6 other 50+ games. Wilt's record 55 rebound game was against Russell, and he had six other 40+ rebound games vs. Bill. Russell only had one 40+ rebound night against Wilt. In fact, Wilt won 9 of 11 rebounding titles when both were active. Wilt is still the only center to lead the league in assists for a season and almost did it twice. Russell found a system that he could fit into perfectly with a better support cast and so won more championships. But when it comes down to who is the superior player, Wilt wins hands down! Think of it like this, compare Ray against Kobe. Yeah, it's that easy.
    Posted by Elven 32



    Hey Elf, you left out a few important facts:

    1. In those games Wilt averaged 28.7 ppg and 28.7 rpg, Russell averaged 14.5ppg and 23.7rpg 
    2. So, the rebounds were a whopping 4 rebounds per game and that was all accounted for because Wilt was playing the whole game and Russell was playing less minutes.  Look it up.
    3. In those times, Wilt was taking more shots and scoring more while Russell was running within an offense where the TEAM was winning more.
    4.  When Wilt averaged 29 ppg against Russell, you forget to mention that he was averaging almost 40 points per game agains the league.  Who held him so much below his normal average so that Wilt's team would lose?  Russell!!
    5. Most importantly......let's put Wilt on the Celtics and almost everyone but you would say the teams will not end up winning 11 or 13 championships.  Its proven when Wilt had Baylor and West - two of the best to ever play the game and still lost against who....yes...Mr. Russell.  Wilt could NOT make his team better.  
    6. While Wilt was just playing selfish ball, Mr. Russell was not only playing and leading his team on the court, but COACHING at the same time!!!   

    Wilt was a GREAT offensive player.  He was NOT the great leader AND player that Russell was.  Why couldn't he win in college and the pros like Russell?   He was not a leader.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    Russell capped off his astounding career by coaching winning two out of three championships at the end of his career.  Wilt lost even to Russell even with him coaching an older team. Wilt was great Russell stands alone as the greatest.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from jaytf25. Show jaytf25's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    I'm glad we had Bill Russell but Wilt was the most dominant player of all time. Michael Jordan had 31 games of scoring 50 points or more in his career. Wilt did that over 40 times in the 61-62 season. He averaged 50 points a game. If you look at the Wilt vs. Russell individual stats against each other Wilt almost always out rebounded and outscored Russ. The Lakers coach in 69 Van Bredakoff kept Wilt on the bench most of the 4th quarter because he thought Wilt was hurt. He blew that game 7 in 69 against the Celtics not Wilt. Wilt's best team was the 66-67 Sixers who went 68-13 and won the title.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Elven 32. Show Elven 32's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    In Response to Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?:
    I'm glad we had Bill Russell but Wilt was the most dominant player of all time. Michael Jordan had 31 games of scoring 50 points or more in his career. Wilt did that over 40 times in the 61-62 season. He averaged 50 points a game. If you look at the Wilt vs. Russell individual stats against each other Wilt almost always out rebounded and outscored Russ. The Lakers coach in 69 Van Bredakoff kept Wilt on the bench most of the 4th quarter because he thought Wilt was hurt. He blew that game 7 in 69 against the Celtics not Wilt. Wilt's best team was the 66-67 Sixers who went 68-13 and won the title.
    Posted by jaytf25


    The trolls forgot to comprehend what I posted. No denying Russell won more as he was a perfect for his team. That being said, Wilt dominated stats wise like Kobe would over Pierce. It's not even close. Pity those whose logic is tied into their beer goggles.


     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from dirty52. Show dirty52's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    In Response to Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?:
    Russell's teams simply won championships.....Wilt's teams hardly ever did...this goes for college and the pros....both were surrounded with unique talent...but Russ never lost a Game 7 and was 12-0 in series deciding games....even at the end when the Celtics were old (Russ & Sam were in the last years of their careers) the Celtics beat the younger and more talented Lakers.....Wilt was a great player...Russ was a great player as well....maybe not as talented as Wilt....but Russ made his teams the ultimate winners....from his first year in the league to his last.....and most times in between....even as guys retired and the names changed....or as Russ put it...."the spokes change but the wheel just keeps on turning...."
    Posted by Duke4


    Actually it looks like the Celtics and Lakers avg age were pretty close

    And it looks like the Celtics had the more talented players

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1969.html


    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1969.html
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from MrJohnnyMost. Show MrJohnnyMost's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    I missed the first Super Bowl. I was in the Gaarden, 2nd balcony, watching these two on a Sunday afternoon. It wasn't even sold out. The ticket cost was 2 bucks.

    Both were incredible athletes but 2 very different players.

    Wilt was about Wilt, and being the King. An incredible physical specimen, he needed to own the stage and he did. Like a scene-stealing actor, he was a force and everything he did was big. He was the show.

    He called the NBA a bush league and tried to prove he was bigger than the game. Maybe he was. He took the record book and wiped his tail with it. Every halftime Wilt was at the scorers table looking over the stats. When he had every imaginable record, he quit.

    Nobody had ever scored 3000 pts. in a season. Wilt did. (MJ did too in 86)

    Just to make sure, he scored 4000 the next year.

    Russell was about winning. To him, that was success. He used his mind and athleticism to influence the actions of others, achieving the goal. Nobody really knew how he did it. It ALWAYS came out right... well except for 67.

    Yeah, Wilt was bigger, stronger, more gifted and skilled. But he didn't make anybody else better. Russell did.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Red-16Russ-11. Show Red-16Russ-11's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    In Response to Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?:
    In Response to Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL? : The trolls forgot to comprehend what I posted. No denying Russell won more as he was a perfect for his team. That being said, Wilt dominated stats wise like Kobe would over Pierce. It's not even close. Pity those whose logic is tied into their beer goggles.
    Posted by Elven 32


    so, if Russ and Wilt were switched????????
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from CaptChris. Show CaptChris's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    How many Championships would Chamberlin win if he played for "Red", and the Celtics cast?

    A whole lot! 

    Russell didn't win because he was Bill Russell.  He won because he ws part of the Celtic teams.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Red-16Russ-11. Show Red-16Russ-11's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    In Response to Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?:
    How many Championships would Chamberlin win if he played for "Red", and the Celtics cast? A whole lot!  Russell didn't win because he was Bill Russell.  He won because he ws part of the Celtic teams.
    Posted by CaptChris


    I'd say he'd probably have won 11 out of 13!
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from MrJohnnyMost. Show MrJohnnyMost's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    This isn't baseball.

    One of the beauties of this sport is that a good TEAM can overcome superior talent. If you're talking talent and stats, then it's Wilt all the way. No contest.

    But you said "player."

    By the way...

    Hal Greer, Chet Walker, Billy Cunningham, Luke Jackson, Wally Jones, Jerry West and Elgin Baylor, weren't punks. They could play and were probably physically superior to the C's.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    In Response to Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?:
    In Response to Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL? : I'd say he'd probably have won 11 out of 13!
    Posted by Red-16Russ-11

    No he would not, Russell was Russell and as I said in my earlier post. Chamberlain never won at Kansas and never won really won in the NBA compared to Russell.

    Russell won two NCAA championships on a team out of nowhere. He won at Melbourne in the Olympics. And other than his injured year in 1958 in the finals he would have won 12 out of 13.  Wilt did not have the intangibles Russell had (those you can't teach)and off all people with Russ in your name here you should know that.  
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from jaytf25. Show jaytf25's posts

    Re: NEW RESPECT FOR WILT, BETTER THAN RUSSELL?

    Wilt was overly sensitive to the selfish player tag. So after they won in 67 he led the league in assists in 67-68. He proved he was unselfish. The stange thing about Wilt was why he  was traded twice? The Warriors moved to San Fran. and I guess they went bad so he came home to Philly in 65 to play for the Sixers who were formerly the Syracuse Nationals. The wierdest thing was why he would want to be traded after those great teams he played for from 65-68. I think he said he was promised part ownership of the Sixers and the owner changed his mind. The trades never equaled out either. I guess there must be something there if the greatest player of his era is traded twice.
     
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