Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from breaktime. Show breaktime's posts

    Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

    excerpt: "It was a lot of pressure because you're 19 and you want to win the championship and Pop wants you to be perfect," Parker said. "He wants you to score, he wants you to pass, he wants you to do everything perfect. And sometimes it was tough. It was growing pains. But at the end of the day it was worth it, because I would not be the player I am without Pop. Pop saw the talent in me and he tried to push me as hard as he can. You can ask anybody on the team -- I'm the one he pushed the most in the film room all the time to try to get me better, and that's why it was worth it for me to be coached like that. Because I never had time to relax. He was always trying to push me."

     
    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1426613-doc-rivers-defending-rajon-rondo-wont-help-star-pg-mature
     
    ...and I like Rondo and believe he is a major asset.  But I don't see Doc in Pop's league as far as molding talent.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

    In response to breaktime's comment:

     

    excerpt: "It was a lot of pressure because you're 19 and you want to win the championship and Pop wants you to be perfect," Parker said. "He wants you to score, he wants you to pass, he wants you to do everything perfect. And sometimes it was tough. It was growing pains. But at the end of the day it was worth it, because I would not be the player I am without Pop. Pop saw the talent in me and he tried to push me as hard as he can. You can ask anybody on the team -- I'm the one he pushed the most in the film room all the time to try to get me better, and that's why it was worth it for me to be coached like that. Because I never had time to relax. He was always trying to push me."


    Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/ian_thomsen/11/28/tony-parker-san-antonio-spurs/index.html#ixzz2VV0VfCnb  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1426613-doc-rivers-defending-rajon-rondo-wont-help-star-pg-mature   ...and I like Rondo and believe he is a major asset.  But I don't see Doc in Pop's league as far as molding talent.

     



    Being pushed is an awesome thing if done correctly. Rondo is not controlled or pushed by anyone but Rondo. He is an enigma. He needs to push himself. He needs to work on his shooting from the outside and the line. Parker can shoot. That is the difference.

     

     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Karllost. Show Karllost's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

    Doc is in no way in the category of Pop as a coach. First off, Doc had almost no training as a coach and it shows.  Read how Parker credits Pop for pushing him to be better, to be perfect at everything... then look at Rondos game.

    Who knows, if Rondo played for Pop he could be a HOF PG.. but as Pop said during an interview... the reason his Spurs have been contenders for so long is the quality of players he has on the team, not just basketball skills but leaders, humble & coachable players with little ego to disrupt team chemistry....and a coach that knows what hes doing

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from GregCelts. Show GregCelts's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

    The Spurs hired a shooting coach for a couple of seasons and it changed his game completely.  Rondo still has a lot of work to do to improve his jumper.  Look at Jason Kidd or Tony Parker.  They could not shoot when they came to the NBA. 

    I always wondered how Rondo would do under a different coach. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from puddinpuddin. Show puddinpuddin's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

    Pop would have put up with Rondo's stubbornness/defiance/petulance for about 2 seconds.

    While doc seems unable to confront  it.

    Besides maybe R9R would simply grow out of it prays our over-protective, gentle-handed, always understanding doc.

    Well... he didn't.

    Pud

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from R9R. Show R9R's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

    Oh you Doc haters ...

     

    Listen, Pop is by far the more complete coach. But he isn't just a coach. He has other duties. He is more invested in the Spurs organization than Doc is. Pop finds talent, develops it, coaches it, builds a team. But lets not forget the key to all the sucess: Drafting Tim Duncan. 

    Duncan is a transformational player. He is beyond elite. They got him as a rookie and was able to build a team, a system, a franchise around this player. He spend his whole career in SAN and single handedly allowed them to contend for all those years.

     

    Doc on the other hand, came into a much different situation. He came into a storied franchise that had been struggling for a long time and was in danger of perpetual mediocrity. Doc did not have the luxury of building a team and system from scratch (that Duncan-like rookie), but had to work with a lot of moving pieces and big free agents. Doc is FAR superior in coaching already established talent. That is exactly what the Celtics needed at the time. Danny got KG and Ray to come play with Paul, Doc was the glue that allowed the three to buy in to ubunto and give themselves to the team. Doc manages personalities. He manages the FAR MORE CRITICAL Boston media. Doc allowed us to "win now"

     

    At this juncture in our franchise, Danny has to make a choice. Take Rondo, Bradley, Green, Sullinger and entice that final piece, a star free agent to come to Boston and employ a guy like Doc to bring these pieces together into a contender to "win now"

    OR

    Rebuild. Trade Rondo, Trade Green. Get into the lottery and get that truely franchisable player. In this situation, you'd ABSOLUTELY want a Pop-type to really work with raw rookie talent and build a 10 year contending team.

     

    TLDR: Both are great in their own style of coaching.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from R9R. Show R9R's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

    and regarding Rondo ... lets not forget what he is. He is not Tim Duncan. He was not the #1 pick that we build around. He was a young x-factor, a fourth/fifth option on a team with 3 super-stars. He turned into a special player, for sure, but its not like on day 1 Danny and Doc were Rondo-centric. He proved he is an all-star, but the goal of the last 6 years wasn't to turn Rondo into a super-star PG, that kind of just happened becase Rondo is really that good. The goal was to win now with KG, Paul and Ray. Rondo has been gravy.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

    In response to Karllost's comment:

    Doc is in no way in the category of Pop as a coach. First off, Doc had almost no training as a coach and it shows.  Read how Parker credits Pop for pushing him to be better, to be perfect at everything... then look at Rondos game.

    Who knows, if Rondo played for Pop he could be a HOF PG.. but as Pop said during an interview... the reason his Spurs have been contenders for so long is the quality of players he has on the team, not just basketball skills but leaders, humble & coachable players with little ego to disrupt team chemistry....and a coach that knows what hes doing

     



    In fairness, how many coaches, past  or present, can you name who are?

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from kyceltic. Show kyceltic's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

    Rondo is a lot closer to Parker, than Doc is to Pop.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from srinivasa. Show srinivasa's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

    In response to R9R's comment:

    and regarding Rondo ... lets not forget what he is. He is not Tim Duncan. He was not the #1 pick that we build around. He was a young x-factor, a fourth/fifth option on a team with 3 super-stars. He turned into a special player, for sure, but its not like on day 1 Danny and Doc were Rondo-centric. He proved he is an all-star, but the goal of the last 6 years wasn't to turn Rondo into a super-star PG, that kind of just happened becase Rondo is really that good. The goal was to win now with KG, Paul and Ray. Rondo has been gravy.



    Why compare Rondo with Duncan? Parker was also a late first rounder, compare them. Beware, Rondo won't look good.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jtkl. Show jtkl's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

    In response to Karllost's comment:

    Doc is in no way in the category of Pop as a coach. First off, Doc had almost no training as a coach and it shows.  Read how Parker credits Pop for pushing him to be better, to be perfect at everything... then look at Rondos game.

    Who knows, if Rondo played for Pop he could be a HOF PG.. but as Pop said during an interview... the reason his Spurs have been contenders for so long is the quality of players he has on the team, not just basketball skills but leaders, humble & coachable players with little ego to disrupt team chemistry....and a coach that knows what hes doing

     



    Rondo's numbers are in the John Stockton Category. He keeps doing what he is doing for a career with no changes, he will be in the hall of fame. 

     

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from R9R. Show R9R's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

    In response to srinivasa's comment:

    In response to R9R's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    and regarding Rondo ... lets not forget what he is. He is not Tim Duncan. He was not the #1 pick that we build around. He was a young x-factor, a fourth/fifth option on a team with 3 super-stars. He turned into a special player, for sure, but its not like on day 1 Danny and Doc were Rondo-centric. He proved he is an all-star, but the goal of the last 6 years wasn't to turn Rondo into a super-star PG, that kind of just happened becase Rondo is really that good. The goal was to win now with KG, Paul and Ray. Rondo has been gravy.

     



    Why compare Rondo with Duncan? Parker was also a late first rounder, compare them. Beware, Rondo won't look good.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    It makes sense with my other post.

     

    I compared them because Pop had Duncan to build a franchise around. Everybody knew that Duncan would be a superstar. Doc inherited a mess of pieces which shuffled around to create the big three. Rondo was not part of the big 3 at first, he wasn't THE PIECE like duncan was. Therefore Doc's job was to focus more on to cohesion of the three veteran superstars rather the development of Rondo.

    Pop had to develop Duncan, develop Parker, develop Ginoble and he developped them together. Their big three grew together over the years and all started as rookies. 

    So you can praise Pop and chastize Doc for rookie development, but their situations were so drastically different that it makes little sense.

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from breaktime. Show breaktime's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

    First off, R9R, the C's  are  better  with Rondo and Doc has  a lot  of merit  as a coach, IMO.  Having said  that, I  believe Doc missed a great opportunity to develop Rondo as  an all around player (that day is gone, Rondo is 27 now, any growth coming from him will have to be because of selfmotivation).

    You're right in saying Doc had his big 3 core from  the getgo, hence developing them was an easier task than it was with Doc, who had to be mroe concerned with integrating a ready made product with Rondo as an afterthought at PG.

    But in the suceeding years, Doc missed a great opportunity.  A Rondo who doesn't finish layups to pass off for midrange jumpers to garnish assists or focuses on steals at the expense of letting his man blow by him into the paint are detriments, no two ways about it.  If the  coach sees these plays happen time and time again and doesn't speak out, something's out of whack.  Maybe Doc's approach is that if a player's game is generally at a good level, he'll lay off the little stuff, but in professional competitive sports, if you want to win it all, there is no little stuff.

    I started this thread because the big 3 era is over, as far as I'm concerned, and as Rondo is now the main piece the Celtic's have, wanted to compare his development with Parker, someone who has has consistently added to his game over the years.  But one big reason Parker was able to acomplish this was because he was constantly pushed/prodded,yelled at by Pop.

    Not Doc's style.  Maybe it was what Rondo needed, but we'll never know and it's too late to do it now. 

    Rondo still needs to develop his game, by no means can he be considered a finished product, and the responsibility, due to his age and temperment, now rests squarely on his shoulders alone. He asked for it by omission, he's got it by KG and PP ageing, and I hope he has the mental and emotional capability to finally look at his game from the mental perpective of great players who always looked at their game for shortcomings knowing that if you stood still you were falling behind.  Otherwise, his career will be seen as "what if" rather than "what he did".
    If you die in an elevator, be sure to push the UP button

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

    In response to kyceltic's comment:

    Rondo is a lot closer to Parker, than Doc is to Pop.




    Yes.  But again, what coach in the leagaue now is even remotely comparable to Popovich?

     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from kyceltic. Show kyceltic's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

    Let's see what Pop does after Duncan retires.

      We already know what Doc did before the big 3 arrived.


     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from futbal. Show futbal's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo


    The last five years, which franchise has had more succes?

    Pop/Duncan/Parker/Ginobeli/pieces (eg, Splitter, Leondard, Green) versus Ainge/Doc/Garnet/Rondo/Pierce/Benedict (Allen)/pieces  (eg, Perk, Stiemsma, Bradley)...

    The Celtics have been better until the wheels came off this year for the Cs and the Spurs got back to the Finals for the first time since 2006-2007... 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from futbal. Show futbal's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo


    By the way, I love Parker's game and also see Pop as better than Doc. But results are results and unless San Antonio wins the Championship (which I hope they will do), then the Cs clearly have been the more successful team/organization since Danny/Doc put together the big three.

    I also agree that Duncan turned out to be the transformative player of his generation (greatness personified as Champsionships) in the conversation with: Russell, Bird/Majic, Michael, Kobe.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from kyceltic. Show kyceltic's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

    In response to kyceltic's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    Let's see what Pop does after Duncan retires.

     

     

      We already know what Doc did before the big 3 arrived.


     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    We also know Doc can win a championship if he has great players.

     

    [/QUOTE] Touche!!


     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

    In response to kyceltic's comment:

    Rondo is a lot closer to Parker, than Doc is to Pop.



    Ever see a good student?  Do you think good students drive their own performance or do you think great students are only great students because of their teacher?

    My point is that the student has more to do with their learning than the teacher.  Parker works harder and grew over time while Rondo is stubborn and hard headed.  Ever see Parker do the dumb things Rondo does?  One is a good student and one is not!

    I like Rondo but I've ALWAYS said Parker never gets enough credit when he ought to be compared favorably to Rondo, Williams, Rose, Westbrook, and Paul.   It has something to do with coaching, but Parker's success has more to do with Parker, himself, than people want to acknowledge.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from puddinpuddin. Show puddinpuddin's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

    In response to Celtsfan4life's comment:
    [/QUOTE]

    My point is that the student has more to do with their learning than the teacher.  Parker works harder and grew over time while Rondo is stubborn and hard headed.  Ever see Parker do the dumb things Rondo does?  One is a good student and one is not!

    I like Rondo but I've ALWAYS said Parker never gets enough credit when he ought to be compared favorably to Rondo, Williams, Rose, Westbrook, and Paul.   It has something to do with coaching, but Parker's success has more to do with Parker, himself, than people want to acknowledge.

    [/QUOTE]

    On the one hand, you describe  R9R as stubborn and hard-headed and imply that he is a poor student of the game who does  dumb things... and then you insist that Parker should be compared favorably (among others) with Rondo, a player you claim to like.

    Dunno how you like a player you describe in such negative terms, terms I certainly agree with BTW... but then I don't claim to like Rondo as a player.

    You might want to think this thru a bit more. And try climbing off the fence, one side or the other.

    Pud

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Pop & Parker vs Doc & Rondo

    In response to puddinpuddin's comment:

     

    In response to Celtsfan4life's comment:

     

    My point is that the student has more to do with their learning than the teacher.  Parker works harder and grew over time while Rondo is stubborn and hard headed.  Ever see Parker do the dumb things Rondo does?  One is a good student and one is not!

    I like Rondo but I've ALWAYS said Parker never gets enough credit when he ought to be compared favorably to Rondo, Williams, Rose, Westbrook, and Paul.   It has something to do with coaching, but Parker's success has more to do with Parker, himself, than people want to acknowledge.

    [/QUOTE]

    On the one hand, you describe  R9R as stubborn and hard-headed and imply that he is a poor student of the game who does  dumb things... and then you insist that Parker should be compared favorably (among others) with Rondo, a player you claim to like.

    Dunno how you like a player you describe in such negative terms, terms I certainly agree with BTW... but then I don't claim to like Rondo as a player.

    You might want to think this thru a bit more. And try climbing off the fence, one side or the other.

    Pud

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Guess you are a black and white kind of guy, huh?   I'm not.  I like Rondo but I am honest about his weaknesses.  He's stubborn, can't shoot well (or at least not with enough confidence), and tempermental.  But, he's a great passer and an intense player in the playoffs.   On balance, I like him, but I recognize his weaknesses.

    I loved Bird, but I recognized his weaknesses (slow and hurt too early in his career).   I didn't like Lebron early in his career - couldn't shoot the jumper and was a one man show - but I did recognize greatness when I saw it.

    So, try not to be so black and white.  One can like a player but acknowledge the downside of that player (and visa versa).

     
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