Rondo ranked 17th best PG

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from elDunker2. Show elDunker2's posts

    Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    Perhaps, you're not aware but basketball has gotten the same mathematical makeover that baseball enjoyed. It's just less accepted by the hoops hoi polloi. There's a reason that 27 of the 30 NBA teams had someone at the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference here in Boston last week, which included a panel featuring Celtics assistant general manager/number cruncher-in-chief Mike Zarren. The Celtics are at the forefront of the advanced metrics movement in the NBA. They used to employ Rockets GM Daryl Morey, a noted advanced metric devotee. When numbers talk the Celtics listen, and advanced metrics are saying something about Rondo that is very different from what traditional stats say about his impact, performance and importance. That would explain in part why they would be open to exploring moving such a dynamic player. Rondo is averaging a career-high 14.1 points and 5.3 rebounds per game this season, and he is second in the league in assists per game at 10.2. But his most impressive traditional stat is this: of the 10 triple-doubles in the NBA this year he has four. Rondo's 18-point, 17-rebound, 20-assist effort against the New York Knicks on Sunday was immediately followed by a chorus of contempt for the mere notion that the Celtics would entertain swapping him for anything less than LeBron James. Trading Rondo for Stephen Curry was hoops heresy. Current trusted advanced metrics in the game portray a different point guard. ESPN's John Hollinger is one of the pioneers of basketball metrics. His player efficiency rating (PER) is a respected way to compare players when accounting for minutes played per game and style of play. Here are Hollinger's current top five players in PER -- LeBron James (33.13), Dwyane Wade (28.34), Kevin Durant (27.24), Chris Paul (25.99), Derrick Rose (25.09). Dwight Howard is seventh and Kobe Bryant is eight. Read Gaspers blog : Hollinger's top five points guards are Paul, Rose, Russell Westbrook (23.39), Curry (22.25) and Steve Nash (21.99), who just edges out Tony Parker (21.93). Deron Williams, Jeremy Lin and Kyrie Irving are all in the top 10. Guess who is not? Rondo is No. 17 at 18.28, trailing Lowry (No. 11) and Lawson (No. 12) and tucked between Rodney Stuckey and Mike Conley. That's a stark contrast to the Green gospel that Rondo is unequivocally a top five point guard. Another evolved stat is estimated wins added (EWA). It's the basketball equivalent of baseball's WAR (wins above replacement). The top five point guards are Paul, Westbrook, Williams, Rose and Parker. Rondo is ranked 17th in this stat (3.6 wins added) as well, and if you think he's being penalized because he's not a big scorer just know that Nash, who is averaging 13.8 points per game, ranks sixth. Lowry is seventh. For comparison, Paul Pierce has a EWA of 5.2. Kevin Garnett's is 4.7.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomobo. Show tomobo's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    In Response to Rondo ranked 17th best PG:
    [QUOTE]Perhaps, you're not aware but basketball has gotten the same mathematical makeover that baseball enjoyed. It's just less accepted by the hoops hoi polloi. There's a reason that 27 of the 30 NBA teams had someone at the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference here in Boston last week, which included a panel featuring Celtics assistant general manager/number cruncher-in-chief Mike Zarren. The Celtics are at the forefront of the advanced metrics movement in the NBA. They used to employ Rockets GM Daryl Morey, a noted advanced metric devotee. When numbers talk the Celtics listen, and advanced metrics are saying something about Rondo that is very different from what traditional stats say about his impact, performance and importance. That would explain in part why they would be open to exploring moving such a dynamic player. Rondo is averaging a career-high 14.1 points and 5.3 rebounds per game this season, and he is second in the league in assists per game at 10.2. But his most impressive traditional stat is this: of the 10 triple-doubles in the NBA this year he has four. Rondo's 18-point, 17-rebound, 20-assist effort against the New York Knicks on Sunday was immediately followed by a chorus of contempt for the mere notion that the Celtics would entertain swapping him for anything less than LeBron James. Trading Rondo for Stephen Curry was hoops heresy. Current trusted advanced metrics in the game portray a different point guard. ESPN's John Hollinger is one of the pioneers of basketball metrics. His player efficiency rating (PER) is a respected way to compare players when accounting for minutes played per game and style of play. Here are Hollinger's current top five players in PER -- LeBron James (33.13), Dwyane Wade (28.34), Kevin Durant (27.24), Chris Paul (25.99), Derrick Rose (25.09). Dwight Howard is seventh and Kobe Bryant is eight. Read Gaspers blog : Hollinger's top five points guards are Paul, Rose, Russell Westbrook (23.39), Curry (22.25) and Steve Nash (21.99), who just edges out Tony Parker (21.93). Deron Williams, Jeremy Lin and Kyrie Irving are all in the top 10. Guess who is not? Rondo is No. 17 at 18.28, trailing Lowry (No. 11) and Lawson (No. 12) and tucked between Rodney Stuckey and Mike Conley. That's a stark contrast to the Green gospel that Rondo is unequivocally a top five point guard. Another evolved stat is estimated wins added (EWA). It's the basketball equivalent of baseball's WAR (wins above replacement). The top five point guards are Paul, Westbrook, Williams, Rose and Parker. Rondo is ranked 17th in this stat (3.6 wins added) as well, and if you think he's being penalized because he's not a big scorer just know that Nash, who is averaging 13.8 points per game, ranks sixth. Lowry is seventh. For comparison, Paul Pierce has a EWA of 5.2. Kevin Garnett's is 4.7.
    Posted by elDunker2[/QUOTE]
     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from breaktime. Show breaktime's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    Only 48 posts and so focused on Rondo.
    Kinda suspicious.
    I think we're talking AKA here.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    El Dunk: 

    PER is interesting to discuss but you failed to note Hollinger's "respected" PER is actually criticized by many others. 

    It's one way of looking at stats, not the bible. Quit lecturing us like it is some kind of definitive system please.

    It doesn't take D into account for one - so players like Nash come out way too high. 

    Lebron has been finishing number one in PER for years, and sometimes by a wide margin, but PER doesn't seem to capture his fourth quarter problems, his free throw problems, his unwillingness to take a big shot problems, etc. In sum, he is the king of PER but has trouble winning when it counts. 

    PER also fails the eye test. My eye told me that Rondo was a better point guard than Lin the last time they went head to head, and it wasn't close. 

    I don't believe Rondo is a top five PG and I don't need PER for that. I do believe he's a top ten point guard. Stats geeks miss what the eyes can see.


     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    In Response to Rondo ranked 17th best PG:
    [QUOTE]Perhaps, you're not aware but basketball has gotten the same mathematical makeover that baseball enjoyed. It's just less accepted by the hoops hoi polloi. There's a reason that 27 of the 30 NBA teams had someone at the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference here in Boston last week, which included a panel featuring Celtics assistant general manager/number cruncher-in-chief Mike Zarren. The Celtics are at the forefront of the advanced metrics movement in the NBA. They used to employ Rockets GM Daryl Morey, a noted advanced metric devotee. When numbers talk the Celtics listen, and advanced metrics are saying something about Rondo that is very different from what traditional stats say about his impact, performance and importance. That would explain in part why they would be open to exploring moving such a dynamic player. Rondo is averaging a career-high 14.1 points and 5.3 rebounds per game this season, and he is second in the league in assists per game at 10.2. But his most impressive traditional stat is this: of the 10 triple-doubles in the NBA this year he has four. Rondo's 18-point, 17-rebound, 20-assist effort against the New York Knicks on Sunday was immediately followed by a chorus of contempt for the mere notion that the Celtics would entertain swapping him for anything less than LeBron James. Trading Rondo for Stephen Curry was hoops heresy. Current trusted advanced metrics in the game portray a different point guard. ESPN's John Hollinger is one of the pioneers of basketball metrics. His player efficiency rating (PER) is a respected way to compare players when accounting for minutes played per game and style of play. Here are Hollinger's current top five players in PER -- LeBron James (33.13), Dwyane Wade (28.34), Kevin Durant (27.24), Chris Paul (25.99), Derrick Rose (25.09). Dwight Howard is seventh and Kobe Bryant is eight. Read Gaspers blog : Hollinger's top five points guards are Paul, Rose, Russell Westbrook (23.39), Curry (22.25) and Steve Nash (21.99), who just edges out Tony Parker (21.93). Deron Williams, Jeremy Lin and Kyrie Irving are all in the top 10. Guess who is not? Rondo is No. 17 at 18.28, trailing Lowry (No. 11) and Lawson (No. 12) and tucked between Rodney Stuckey and Mike Conley. That's a stark contrast to the Green gospel that Rondo is unequivocally a top five point guard. Another evolved stat is estimated wins added (EWA). It's the basketball equivalent of baseball's WAR (wins above replacement). The top five point guards are Paul, Westbrook, Williams, Rose and Parker. Rondo is ranked 17th in this stat (3.6 wins added) as well, and if you think he's being penalized because he's not a big scorer just know that Nash, who is averaging 13.8 points per game, ranks sixth. Lowry is seventh. For comparison, Paul Pierce has a EWA of 5.2. Kevin Garnett's is 4.7.
    Posted by elDunker2[/QUOTE]

    This will be dismissed by most but agreed to yours truly as I have been saying it for 6 years now.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from puddinpuddin. Show puddinpuddin's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG:
    [QUOTE]Only 48 posts and so focused on Rondo. Kinda suspicious. I think we're talking AKA here.
    Posted by breaktime[/QUOTE]

    OK... you can't fool breaktime.

    Eldunker looks suspiciously like one of my aliases.  The jig's up.

    Now back to the substance of the stats.

    Pud
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    Interesting stats but if you want to be taken seriously you also must mention that most people consider Hollinger a joke.  For example in his team ratings he rates the trailblazers, who have a losing record, over the Clippers who are 22 and 15.  If you can make any sense of that let me know.

    Regardless  as of today he has Rondo at 15 and not 17.

    I would put Rondo more around 10th best.

    Obviously the coaches in the NBA think he is above as they keep voting him in the all star game.

    Hollinger is just one guy.  


     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from puddinpuddin. Show puddinpuddin's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG:
    [QUOTE]Interesting stats but if you want to be taken seriously you also must mention that most people consider Hollinger a joke.  For example in his team ratings he rates the trailblazers, who have a losing record, over the Clippers who are 22 and 15.  If you can make any sense of that let me know. Regardless  as of today he has Rondo at 15 and not 17. I would put Rondo more around 10th best. Obviously the coaches in the NBA think he is above as they keep voting him in the all star game. Hollinger is just one guy.  
    Posted by snakeoil123[/QUOTE]

    Dunno who is responsible for R9R's recent AS replacement gig. Doubt that it was the coaches. More like league PR department "listening" to the NBA fans who buy a lot of R9R jerseys...

    Now that's the joke!

    Hollinger IS just one guy. He doesn't claim otherwise.

    His rankings seem to have a large following.

    Pud
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from JamezHill24. Show JamezHill24's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG : Dunno who is responsible for R9R's recent AS replacement gig. Doubt that it was the coaches. More like league PR department "listening" to the NBA fans who buy a lot of R9R jerseys... Now that's the joke! Hollinger IS just one guy. He doesn't claim otherwise. His rankings seem to have a large following. Pud
    Posted by puddinpuddin[/QUOTE]

    NBA rules state that in case of injury the nba coaches will select a replacement. why would u doubt its the coaches when they voted him in two years straight before that?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from JamezHill24. Show JamezHill24's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG:
    [QUOTE]Interesting stats but if you want to be taken seriously you also must mention that most people consider Hollinger a joke.  For example in his team ratings he rates the trailblazers, who have a losing record, over the Clippers who are 22 and 15.  If you can make any sense of that let me know. Regardless  as of today he has Rondo at 15 and not 17. I would put Rondo more around 10th best. Obviously the coaches in the NBA think he is above as they keep voting him in the all star game. Hollinger is just one guy.  
    Posted by snakeoil123[/QUOTE]

    not only that, his PER system is WIDELY criticized for the problems it has..so much so that i dont even check it out nemore.

    im sure you can go online and find Dudder's blog in which he will state Rondo is the 26th best pg in the league, so does that mean that thats true? 

    my list is:
    1. Chris Paul
    2. Derrick Rose
    3. Deron Williams
    4. Rajon Rondo
    5. Russell Westbrook

    i took into consideration every part of a players game to get this list, not just scoring. i took offensive abilities (shooting,passing, playmaking, o rebounding) AND defensive ability (on ball defense, zone defense, stealing, d rebounding). as well as running the offense.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG : Dunno who is responsible for R9R's recent AS replacement gig. Doubt that it was the coaches. More like league PR department "listening" to the NBA fans who buy a lot of R9R jerseys... Now that's the joke! Hollinger IS just one guy. He doesn't claim otherwise. His rankings seem to have a large following. Pud
    Posted by puddinpuddin[/QUOTE]

    Hollinger rates Jordan Farmar over John Wall and Brandon Jennings as well as Rondo.

    Do you agree with that?  As far as I am concerned the conversation stops right there.


     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from sinus007. Show sinus007's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    Eldunker,
    Regardless of Rondo, how good or bad he is, please don't bring Hollinger with his PER and statistics into a serious basketball discussion.
    He, Hollinger, is just a snake oil salesman with all that statistical hoopla that you have to pay to read. Since he's talking about probabilities, it's more like "Maybe yes, maybe no, maybe rain, maybe snow"
    I'd rather read opinions of respected journalists such as AWoj, Jackie Macmullan.
    Just my $.02

    AK
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from tompenny. Show tompenny's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG : Hollinger rates Jordan Farmar over John Wall and Brandon Jennings as well as Rondo. Do you agree with that?  As far as I am concerned the conversation stops right there.
    Posted by snakeoil123[/QUOTE]

    Of course he is. He was so dominate Kobe had him moved from the Lakers. Can't have a player as good as Farmer stealing his shine.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    In Response to Rondo ranked 17th best PG:
    [QUOTE]Perhaps, you're not aware but basketball has gotten the same mathematical makeover that baseball enjoyed. It's just less accepted by the hoops hoi polloi. There's a reason that 27 of the 30 NBA teams had someone at the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference here in Boston last week, which included a panel featuring Celtics assistant general manager/number cruncher-in-chief Mike Zarren. The Celtics are at the forefront of the advanced metrics movement in the NBA. They used to employ Rockets GM Daryl Morey, a noted advanced metric devotee. When numbers talk the Celtics listen, and advanced metrics are saying something about Rondo that is very different from what traditional stats say about his impact, performance and importance. That would explain in part why they would be open to exploring moving such a dynamic player. Rondo is averaging a career-high 14.1 points and 5.3 rebounds per game this season, and he is second in the league in assists per game at 10.2. But his most impressive traditional stat is this: of the 10 triple-doubles in the NBA this year he has four. Rondo's 18-point, 17-rebound, 20-assist effort against the New York Knicks on Sunday was immediately followed by a chorus of contempt for the mere notion that the Celtics would entertain swapping him for anything less than LeBron James. Trading Rondo for Stephen Curry was hoops heresy. Current trusted advanced metrics in the game portray a different point guard. ESPN's John Hollinger is one of the pioneers of basketball metrics. His player efficiency rating (PER) is a respected way to compare players when accounting for minutes played per game and style of play. Here are Hollinger's current top five players in PER -- LeBron James (33.13), Dwyane Wade (28.34), Kevin Durant (27.24), Chris Paul (25.99), Derrick Rose (25.09). Dwight Howard is seventh and Kobe Bryant is eight. Read Gaspers blog : Hollinger's top five points guards are Paul, Rose, Russell Westbrook (23.39), Curry (22.25) and Steve Nash (21.99), who just edges out Tony Parker (21.93). Deron Williams, Jeremy Lin and Kyrie Irving are all in the top 10. Guess who is not? Rondo is No. 17 at 18.28, trailing Lowry (No. 11) and Lawson (No. 12) and tucked between Rodney Stuckey and Mike Conley. That's a stark contrast to the Green gospel that Rondo is unequivocally a top five point guard. Another evolved stat is estimated wins added (EWA). It's the basketball equivalent of baseball's WAR (wins above replacement). The top five point guards are Paul, Westbrook, Williams, Rose and Parker. Rondo is ranked 17th in this stat (3.6 wins added) as well, and if you think he's being penalized because he's not a big scorer just know that Nash, who is averaging 13.8 points per game, ranks sixth. Lowry is seventh. For comparison, Paul Pierce has a EWA of 5.2. Kevin Garnett's is 4.7.
    Posted by elDunker2[/QUOTE]GREAT POST... GOOD WORK YOUNG MAN, "YOUR MAKING ALL MY POINTS" !!!  THATS WHY YOU CAN'T BUILD A TEAM AROUND RONDO !!!!
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG : Of course he is. He was so dominate Kobe had him moved from the Lakers. Can't have a player as good as Farmer stealing his shine.
    Posted by tompenny[/QUOTE]

    It's good to know that eldunker and Pud feel that Farmar is such an exellent talent that he is rated above Rondo, Wall and and Jennings.

    It's odd the Net's only play him 20 minutes a game.  They must not read Hollinger apparently.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from tompenny. Show tompenny's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG : It's good to know that eldunker and Pud feel that Farmar is such an exellent talent that he is rated above Rondo, Wall and and Jennings. It's odd the Net's only play him 20 minutes a game.  They must not read Hollinger apparently.
    Posted by snakeoil123[/QUOTE]

    His minutes  are because the Nets are showcasing Deron to move him. D12 really wants to play with Farmer.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from breaktime. Show breaktime's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    Maybe we should rename this board:
    Rondo on the front burner, Celtics on the back burner
     
  19. This post has been removed.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from breaktime. Show breaktime's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG : OK... you can't fool breaktime. Eldunker looks suspiciously like one of my aliases.  The jig's up. Now back to the substance of the stats. Pud
    Posted by puddinpuddin[/QUOTE]
    Big fan of sarcasm, Pud.
    2 pts for that.
    Can't tell if you're serious or joking.
    You get another 2.
    4 pt play.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from puddinpuddin. Show puddinpuddin's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    If Hollinger had rated R9R in the top 5.... then the skeptics would have a totally different story.

    Hollinger would be their gold standard right next to the King James Version of the Bible... at least until R9R slipped a few notches... say to 17th or so.

    Pud
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from tompenny. Show tompenny's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG:
    [QUOTE]If Hollinger had rated R9R in the top 5.... then the skeptics would have a totally different story. Hollinger would be their gold standard right next to the King James Version of the Bible... at least until R9R slipped a few notches... say to 17th or so. Pud
    Posted by puddinpuddin[/QUOTE]

    Must be why when people comment on Hollinger rankings 75% of them are on how stupid he's. Go figure. He's right up there were ESPN's made up QB rating system. Everyone loves that one too.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from JamezHill24. Show JamezHill24's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG : His minutes  are because the Nets are showcasing Deron to move him. D12 really wants to play with Farmer.
    Posted by tompenny[/QUOTE]

    wait your kidding right...u really believe Jordan Farmar is better than Rajon Rondo?

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from JamezHill24. Show JamezHill24's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG:
    [QUOTE]I comment on alot of forums across the states. This is by far and away the least imformative and lacking of facts. . Are people in Boston really this stupid? You peeps don't deserve a team.
    Posted by darrylfries[/QUOTE]

    thank ya

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mark from Ct. Show Mark from Ct's posts

    Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG

    In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Rondo ranked 17th best PG : Of course he is. He was so dominate Kobe had him moved from the Lakers. Can't have a player as good as Farmer stealing his shine.
    Posted by tompenny[/QUOTE]

    Kobe didn't have Farmar moved off of the Lakers.
    He was a free agent and signed with NJ as they offered him the most money.

    Farmar is not that good.
    Nice shot last night but he is a career back up.
     
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