Sportsnation's top PG's

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Sportsnation's top PG's

    Just saw the list on ESPN #2

    1-Williams
    2-Paul
    3-Nash
    4-Rondo
    5-Rose

    Quote: "Once Rondo improves his shot, which he will, he moves up this list"

    When Nash retires he becomes top 3.....improve the jump shot/free throws....sky is the limit...!
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from MichBelgium. Show MichBelgium's posts

    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    Yeah well if he ever get's a shot he might be the best... I am still waiting! 

    And what about Tony Parker he is a very good point guard! Too bad with his injuries...
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from voguerp. Show voguerp's posts

    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    In Response to Sportsnation's top PG's:
    Just saw the list on ESPN #2 1-Williams 2-Paul 3-Nash 4-Rondo 5-Rose Quote: "Once Rondo improves his shot, which he will, he moves up this list" When Nash retires he becomes top 3.....improve the jump shot/free throws....sky is the limit...!
    Posted by Duke4


    I agree with this list as well. Rondo should have a drastic improvement in his shot next season, as his confidence is continuously rising with each season.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    Just shoot 75% at the line and nail OPEN 20 foot jumpers and you are # 1 Rondo

    I know the refs with the hose job 4th quarter to bail out Kobe, the Perk injury and Ray's cold shooting in games 3/7 were bigger reasons we lost the finals than Rondo

    But rondo's poor FT shooting and passing up open looks compete's with KG's being soundly beaten by Gasol for 4th on the list of why we lost the finals
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from jerrycole. Show jerrycole's posts

    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    Apparently ESPN is unaware of a little known part of game of basketball.  It's called "defense" (not sure of the spelling, as I have seen it written as "D Fence").  As I understand it, it has something to do with preventing the other team from scoring, if you can imagine such a thing.

    This much I do know about "defense":  the next time Steve Nash plays defense will be his first time.  

    Naming Nash ahead of Rondo is something I would expect from a pre-teen, not a TV network that ostensibly has staff who are knowledgeable about the game as it is played at both ends of the court.

    By the way, Deron Williams 1) isn't even close to a healthy CPaul, 2) is tied with Rondo in net production, and 3) isn't as good a defender as Rondo.  Until we know one way or another about CPaul's health status, he is either #1 or not on the list.  If CPaul is #1, then Rondo is #2.  If CPaul isn't able to play at his pre-injury level, then Rondo is the best PG in the NBA.  







    A

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from puddinpuddin. Show puddinpuddin's posts

    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    In Response to Re: Sportsnation's top PG's:
    Apparently ESPN is unaware of a little known part of game of basketball.  It's called "defense" (not sure of the spelling, as I have seen it written as "D Fence").  As I understand it, it has something to do with preventing the other team from scoring, if you can imagine such a thing. This much I do know about "defense":  the next time Steve Nash plays defense will be his first time.   Naming Nash ahead of Rondo is something I would expect from a pre-teen, not a TV network that ostensibly has staff who are knowledgeable about the gameas it is played at both ends of the court. By the way, Deron Williams 1) isn't even close to a healthy CPaul, 2) is tied with Rondo in net production, and 3) isn't as good a defender as Rondo.  Until we know one way or another about CPaul's health status, he is either #1 or not on the list.  If CPaul is #1, then Rondo is #2.  If CPaul isn't able to play at his pre-injury level, then Rondo is the best PG in the NBA.   A
    Posted by jerrycole


    Unlike JerryCole who spends all of his time crunching numbers at 82 games.com and dissecting box scores, I suspect that the ESPN staff may actually watch and enjoy a game or three.

    Try it yourself, J/C! You'll be amazed by the action on the court. To enrich your personal viewing enjoyment, the players can be identified by the numbers they wear on their uniforms.

    You can't watch it  on bingo night though.

    Pud
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from jerrycole. Show jerrycole's posts

    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    Tompenny,
    Deron Williams is "handsdown" better than Rondo?  If he were, his production would be better than Rondo's - right?  When you add up the quantifiably good things that DWill does (points, assists, rebounds, steals), and subtract the bad things (shots missed and TOs), DWill's total production should be better than Rondo's - right?  

    But guess what?  DWill's production is NOT better than Rondo's!  They are TIED!

    To break the tie, which is the better defensive player?  Well, the NBA coaches, but a wide margin, named Rondo to the first team All-NBA Defensive team - one of the two best defensive guards (not limited to PGs) in the league.  Deron Williams?  Not on the first, second, or third Defensive Teams.  The tie-breaker goes to Rondo.

    Therefore, Rondo is better than Deron Williams.  If you would like to try to disprove that, please bring FACTS, not your impressions or what you "see" on the floor.  As has been proven on this forum and elsewhere, over and over again, what people "see" is often wrong, for a variety of reasons.

    For instance, Pud keeps telling us that Rondo "disappears" in the fourth quarter of games, he's nowhere to be found when the game is on the line - that's what Pud "sees".  You probably agree with him.

    But guess what?  Pud's impression is, accoring to the best data available, flat out wrong.  In "clutch" situations, Rondo's scoring INCREASES.  Even more amazing (to Pud, that is) Rondo's jump shooting GREATLY improves.  Here is the data:

    .......................fgm............fga.............fg%
     
    overall.... ..........5.7...........11.2............51%
    per 48 mins.........8.6...........14.9 ...........51%

    "clutch" time
    per 48 mins........9.4...........17.6.............53%


    Jump shooting: percent of all shots ......efg%

    overall..................48%......................37%
    "clutch" time..........53%......................44%

    Notice, by the way, that Pud is right about one thing.  Rondo is "forced" to take more jump shots in clutch situations.  Unfortunately for Pud, however, the result is exactly opposite of what he "sees".  Despite taking more jump shots, Rondo's overall shooting percentage goes up and his jump shot percentage goes up even more.

    [data from 82games.com] 
    [82games.com definition of "clutch": last five minutes of games in which neither team is leading by more than 5 points]
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    In Response to Sportsnation's top PG's:
    Just saw the list on ESPN #2 1-Williams 2-Paul 3-Nash 4-Rondo 5-Rose Quote: "Once Rondo improves his shot, which he will, he moves up this list" When Nash retires he becomes top 3.....improve the jump shot/free throws....sky is the limit...!
    Posted by Duke4


    Rondo definitely needs to improve his free throw shooting.  He will never be another Ray Allen in his shooting and free throws, but even if he is able to improve slightly in these areas he could be even better next year. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from puddinpuddin. Show puddinpuddin's posts

    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    In Response to Re: Sportsnation's top PG's:
    Tompenny, Deron Williams is "handsdown" better than Rondo?  If he were, his production would be better than Rondo's - right?  When you add up the quantifiably good things that DWill does (points, assists, rebounds, steals), and subtract the bad things (shots missed and TOs), DWill's total production should be better than Rondo's - right?   But guess what?  DWill's production is NOT better than Rondo's!  They are TIED! To break the tie, which is the better defensive player?  Well, the NBA coaches, but a wide margin, named Rondo to the first team All-NBA Defensive team - one of the two best defensive guards (not limited to PGs) in the league.  Deron Williams?  Not on the first, second, or third Defensive Teams.  The tie-breaker goes to Rondo. Therefore, Rondo is better than Deron Williams.  If you would like to try to disprove that, please bring FACTS, not your impressions or what you "see" on the floor.  As has been proven on this forum and elsewhere, over and over again, what people "see" is often wrong, for a variety of reasons. For instance, Pud keeps telling us that Rondo "disappears" in the fourth quarter of games, he's nowhere to be found when the game is on the line - that's what Pud "sees".  You probably agree with him. But guess what?  Pud's impression is, accoring to the best data available, flat out wrong.  In "clutch" situations, Rondo's scoring INCREASES.  Even more amazing (to Pud, that is) Rondo's jump shooting GREATLY improves.  Here is the data: .......................fgm............fga.............fg%   overall.... ..........5.7...........11.2............51% per 48 mins.........8.6...........14.9 ...........51% "clutch" time per 48 mins........9.4...........17.6.............53% Jump shooting: percent of all shots ......efg% overall..................48%......................37% "clutch" time..........53%......................44% Notice, by the way, that Pud is right about one thing.  Rondo is "forced" to take more jump shots in clutch situations.  Unfortunately for Pud, however, the result is exactly opposite of what he "sees".  Despite taking more jump shots, Rondo's overall shooting percentage goes up and his jump shot percentage goes up even more. [data from 82games.com]  [82games.com definition of "clutch": last five minutes of games in which neither team is leading by more than 5 points]
    Posted by jerrycole


    GOBBLEDEEGOOK!

    Apparently the Laker defense sees the very same thing that I see when they force Rondo into becoming a jumpshooter. They sag off in the middle completely IGNORING his woeful midrange game, leaving him WIDE open, daring him to shoot.... and history records what happens. That strategy works.

    Silly Lakers.... they agree with Pud... and they're the champs.

    Pud
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    " If CPaul isn't able to play at his pre-injury level, then Rondo is the best PG in the NBA.  "

    I'm a Rondo fan but can't get on board with that. His free throw shooting was a huge liability in the NBA finals. You simply can't be the best point guard in the league if you can't hit your free throws. I'm less concerned about his jumper but do need to see more clutch jumpers as well - though we did see some clutch jump shooting as well in the playoffs...but right now, Williams and a healthy Paul are both better.

    Derrick Rose has a good chance to emerge and Westbrook may be on the brink as well. This will be an interesting topic to revisit next January, then it should become more clear. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Waynestarr. Show Waynestarr's posts

    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    In Response to Re: Sportsnation's top PG's:
    In Response to Re: Sportsnation's top PG's : You never watch Deron play apparently or very rarely. Him and CP3 are hands down the best in the league. Rondo is not better than Deron rigth now point blank period and might never be. We easily win game 7 with him because he wouldn't have been and offensive liablility that Kobe wouldn't have to guard so he could grab 15 rebounds. He's a FAR superior offensive player which is part of the game too ;) Ask every GM in the league if they take Rondo over Deron. You would be lucky to get 5 of them.
    Posted by tompenny



    What he said!!!
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Waynestarr. Show Waynestarr's posts

    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    In Response to Re: Sportsnation's top PG's:
    "  If CPaul isn't able to play at his pre-injury level, then Rondo is the best PG in the NBA.  " I'm a Rondo fan but can't get on board with that. His free throw shooting was a huge liability in the NBA finals. You simply can't be the best point guard in the league if you can't hit your free throws. I'm less concerned about his jumper but do need to see more clutch jumpers as well - though we did see some clutch jump shooting as well in the playoffs...but right now, Williams and a healthy Paul are both better. Derrick Rose has a good chance to emerge and Westbrook may be on the brink as well. This will be an interesting topic to revisit next January, then it should become more clear. 
    Posted by BostonTrollSpanker



    I forgot about Westbrook. He was a BEAST against the Lakers, and fearless going to the cup.

    I think John Wall will be someone to lookout for next season. He has pretty good height too at 6-4.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from jerrycole. Show jerrycole's posts

    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    Definition of "GOBBLEDEEGOOK" - facts which prove that Pud is completely wrong about Rondo's "disappearing" in the fourth quarter, about his "being afraid to shoot jumpers" in the fourth quarter, and about the Lakers having a strategy that "works" against Rondo.

    Rondo had a triple double against the Lakers, and in the 7th game he came within two rebounds of a second triple double.  Rondo averaged against the Lakers in the Finals almost exactly the production he averaged throughout the regular season - despite the fact that the Lakers assigned a first team All-NBA Defensive team member to guard him.  If that's your idea of a strategy that "works", there is no hope for you.

    Pud, what part of Rondo's taking more shots in 4th quarter "crunch" time, rather than "disappearing" don't you understand?   What part of Rondo's shooting 44% on jump shots during fourth quarter "crunch" time don't you understand?  What part of Rondo's averaging more points per minute in fourth quarter "crunch" time don't you understand?  Try to stick with the facts when you respond - I know that's difficult for you, but try it.

    BostonTrollSpanker, Rondo's poor FT shooting against the Lakers cost the Celtics an average of one point per game compared to what he would have scored if he had shot 75%.  It would be very difficult to make a rational case that one point per game was a "huge liability".  I'm very happy to live with Rondo's poor FT shooting rather than give up his exceptional production in so many other aspects of the game (assists, steals, offensive rebounds, high percentage shooting, disrupting defense).

    Also, Spanker, if DWilliams is better than Rondo, tell us how come his total production is no better than Rondo's.  Otherwise, you are going to have to admit that you are basing your evaluation on just points and assists - nothing more, ignoring all the other aspects of the game. 

    Perhaps you think DWill is a better defender - in which case you are going to have to explain Rondo's being voted by NBA head coaches to the first team of the All-NBA Defensive team, while DWill didn't even make the THIRD team. 

    Facts, boys, facts.  Your impressions don't convince. Your focussing on one small part of Rondo's game rather than his overall contributions is myopic and weakens your case.  And your ignoring Rondo's defensive supremacy among PGs is an unforgivable breach of rationality.  Other than that, you're doing great.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from puddinpuddin. Show puddinpuddin's posts

    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    In Response to Re: Sportsnation's top PG's:
    Definition of "GOBBLEDEEGOOK" - facts which prove that Pud is completely wrong about Rondo's "disappearing" in the fourth quarter, about his "being afraid to shoot jumpers" in the fourth quarter, and about the Lakers having a strategy that "works" against Rondo. Rondo had a triple double against the Lakers, and in the 7th game he came within two rebounds of a second triple double.  Rondo averaged against the Lakers in the Finals almost exactly the production he averaged throughout the regular season - despite the fact that the Lakers assigned a first team All-NBA Defensive team member to guard him.  If that's your idea of a strategy that "works", there is no hope for you. Pud, what part of Rondo's taking more shots in 4th quarter "crunch" time, rather than "disappearing" don't you understand?   What part of Rondo's shooting 44% on jump shots during fourth quarter "crunch" time don't you understand?  What part of Rondo's averaging more points per minute in fourth quarter "crunch" time don't you understand?  Try to stick with the facts when you respond - I know that's difficult for you, but try it. BostonTrollSpanker, Rondo's poor FT shooting against the Lakers cost the Celtics an average of one point per game compared to what he would have scored if he had shot 75%.  It would be very difficult to make a rational case that one point per game was a "huge liability".  I'm very happy to live with Rondo's poor FT shooting rather than give up his exceptional production in so many other aspects of the game (assists, steals, offensive rebounds, high percentage shooting, disrupting defense). Also, Spanker, if DWilliams is better than Rondo, tell us how come his total production is no better than Rondo's.  Otherwise, you are going to have to admit that you are basing your evaluation on just points and assists - nothing more, ignoring all the other aspects of the game.  Perhaps you think DWill is a better defender - in which case you are going to have to explain Rondo's being voted by NBA head coaches to the first team of the All-NBA Defensive team, while DWill didn't even make the THIRD team.  Facts, boys, facts.  Your impressions don't convince. Your focussing on one small part of Rondo's game rather than his overall contributions is myopic and weakens your case.  And your ignoring Rondo's defensive supremacy among PGs is an unforgivable breach of rationality.  Other than that, you're doing great.
    Posted by jerrycole


    For God sake, J/C.

    Give your tortured numbers/facts/stats a rest.

    Pud
     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from mem17. Show mem17's posts

    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    That list by ESPN sounds good to me. Nash is a subpar defender, but his offensive game and ability to run a team is outstanding. He's a 2 time mvp, he's in his mid 30's and he is still a terrific player. No longer an mvp, but still a force.
        I agree with Paul and Williams being 1 and 2 respectively. Number 4 and 5 with Rondo and Rose sounds about right to me. 
         6-10 would be interesting. I'd list the following and not in order necessarily: Parker, Westbrook, Billups, Kidd, Nelson. Kidd and Billups used to be top 5's,but age has taken it's toll on them somewhat. Both can still play the game well though.
     
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    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    I find it stunning and frankly troubling that J/C would attempt to make the case that Rondo's woeful FT shooting only costs the C's roughly one point per game.  Not to worry. Right??? No biggie!

    In the sterile, theoretical  world of statistics that J/C seems locked inside of, that may be "true." However, in the real world where the game is actually played,  it is all too clear that a PG shooting 25% from the FT line seriously hinders the offensive attack that the aforementioned PG is supposed to direct.

    That J/C would attempt to hide this inconvenient truth somewhere inside his carefully erected  but utterly hollow (bogus) statistical shell game is all too obvious to those of us who understand and actually watch the game.

    J/C is a shameless huckster IMHO.

    Pud
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Waynestarr. Show Waynestarr's posts

    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    In Response to Re: Sportsnation's top PG's:
    I find it stunning and frankly troubling that J/C would attempt to make the case that Rondo's woeful FT shooting only costs the C's roughly one point per game.  Not to worry. Right??? No biggie! In the sterile, theoretical  world of statistics that J/C seems locked inside of, that may be "true." However, in the real world where the game is actually played,  it is all too clear that a PG shooting 25% from the FT line seriously hinders the offensive attack that the aforementioned PG is supposed to direct. That J/C would attempt to hide this inconvenient truth somewhere inside his carefully erected  but utterlyy hollow (bogus) statistical shell game is all to obvious to those of us to understand and actually watch the game. J/C is a shameless huckster IMHO. Pud
    Posted by puddinpuddin



    Say what!!!

    Truer words were never spoken... err, typed!
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from mem17. Show mem17's posts

    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    Rondo shoots about 60% from the free throw line, not 25%. However 60% does need to be improved on.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from shines01. Show shines01's posts

    gee, i think a poster named shines01....

    I believe I posted the identical information two days ago by checking nba.com for their efficiency ratings....I dunno, I guess you gotta be a sports writed to get any credibility
     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from croc. Show croc's posts

    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    They sag off in the middle completely IGNORING his woeful midrange game, leaving him WIDE open, daring him to shoot..

    Or he hits FT more consistantly and drives the bejeezus out of them.  All he needs to do is improve the FTs, all else is gravy.  LA did not just sag off or ignore him either, this is a hy-pud-erbole

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from jerrycole. Show jerrycole's posts

    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    In Response to Re: Sportsnation's top PG's:
    In Response to Re: Sportsnation's top PG's :

    For God sake, J/C. Give your tortured numbers/facts/stats a rest. Pud
    Posted by puddinpuddin


    "Tortured" (from the dictionary according to Pud): factual information which demonstrates the falsity of Pud's impressions

    Some famous person once said "Facts are inconvenient things".  Truer words were never spoken, especially about the workings of Pud's mind. 

    Pud would have you believe that the facts I present are less to be trusted than the impressions he gets from "actually watching games", which impressions are the sole source of what he believes.  He believes that the impressions he gets are somehow more valid than those that anyone else gets from "actually watching games" - in fact, he believes that if somehow someone else has different beliefs than they must not have "actually watched games".  The breathtaking arrogance of that point of view apparently bypasses him completely.

    The facts about where Rondo should be ranked among PGs are very simple.  They are the compilation of all the data from all the games.  They are not subject to the distortions that the human brain regularly creates from its attempts to deal with a greater mass of information than it can process.

    Here, again, are the facts.  Last season, in the games Chris Paul played before he was injured, he had greater production per game - by far - than any other PG in the NBA.   If his injury does not significantly impair his abilities in the coming season, he is clearly the best PG in the NBA. 

    Tightly bunched in production behind CPaul are Steve Nash, Rajon Rondo and Deron Williams.  With Nash leading the other two by two points of production per game.  Rondo and Williams are TIED in production.  (This fact completely flummoxes those who believe that DWill is "handsdown" better than Rondo, but it is, despite that, a fact.)

    Nash is a much worse defender than any of the top PGs in the league.  This is a fact that can be verified by looking at a compilation of the defensive measures of production or by simply "watching the games".  It's not a big secret, and no impartial observer denies it.  Since defense is half of the game of basketball, despite all of the attention given to offensive, especially scoring, Nash's defensive deficiencies, in conjunction with his small lead in production, clearly place him below Rondo and DWill in the rankings. 

    [Two notes: 1) hypothetically it is possible for a PG to be so productive as to more than offset significantly inferior defensive performance.  Since Nash is only slightly more productive than Rondo and DWill, that is not the case in this instance.  2) On a per game basis, Nash statistically benefits from his team's high pace - and Rajon's production is adversely affected by his team's low pace.  This distortion can be removed by looking at "per possession" data, but that data is hard to find, is rarely comprehensive, and takes a lot of work to compile from per game data.]

    Given that DWill's and Rondo's total production is the same, the tiebreaker is defense, which for individual player comparisons is difficult to quantify.  So, in this case, it is perfectly reasonable to look at the rankings provided by the most knowledgable professionals - NBA head coaches.  There, the difference between these two players is quite large.  One of them was voted one of the top two defensive guards (not just PGs) in the NBA, along with Kobe Bryant.  The other didn't receive enough votes to make it onto even the THIRD defensive team.
     
    Pretty simple, right?  DWill is NOT superior to Rondo in overall production.  One might assume that he is, because he scores more and has more assists.  But when ALL of the quantified aspects of the game are included, the players are TIED, which means that Rondo's superiority in the less glamorous aspects of the game (rebounds, shots missed, turnovers, and steals) offsets DWill's lead in points and assists.  So defense is the difference, and there the NBA coaches are pretty definitive as to which player is superior.

    "Tortured"?  No.  Simple?  Yes.    
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from CVD2312. Show CVD2312's posts

    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    jerrycole, unfortunately for you, the value of a player cannot be completely or accurately measured just by looking at stats. It's why players like Corey Maggette and Monta Ellis will never be on a winning team...their stats look amazing, but they don't help their teams out much.

    I would bet at least 25 out of 30 GM's in the NBA would take Deron Williams and Steve Nash over Rajon Rondo if they had to choose, for one game or one season, however you want to look at it (where age doesn't factor in). Rondo killed the Celtics in the finals because Kobe could sag 10 feet off of him. That can't be measured in your stupid stats.

    I would also say that Rondo doesn't have the burden that Chris Paul, Deron Williams, and Nash have of being a huge focus of the other teams defense. Chris Paul has 5 defenders focused soley on him every single game, game-planning for him. Same with Nash and Williams. Rondo has 2-3 other teammates that are game-planned for, thus taking focus off of him.
     
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    Re: Sportsnation's top PG's

    In Response to Re: Sportsnation's top PG's:
    jerrycole, unfortunately for you, the value of a player cannot be completely or accurately measured just by looking at stats. It's why players like Corey Maggette and Monta Ellis will never be on a winning team...their stats look amazing, but they don't help their teams out much. I would bet at least 25 out of 30 GM's in the NBA would take Deron Williams and Steve Nash over Rajon Rondo if they had to choose, for one game or one season, however you want to look at it (where age doesn't factor in). Rondo killed the Celtics in the finals because Kobe could sag 10 feet off of him. That can't be measured in your stupid stats. I would also say that Rondo doesn't have the burden that Chris Paul, Deron Williams, and Nash have of being a huge focus of the other teams defense. Chris Paul has 5 defenders focused soley on him every single game, game-planning for him. Same with Nash and Williams. Rondo has 2-3 other teammates that are game-planned for, thus taking focus off of him.
    Posted by CVD2312


    Unfortunately all J/C has is a bunch of "stupid stats."  He refuses  to talk about an actual game. Doesn't know how.

    If it weren't for 82games.com, he wouldn't have anything to say.

    Pud
     
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