Stay the course

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    Re: Stay the course

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

     

    In response to Mployee8's comment:

     

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

     

    Here:

    http://www.nba.com/knicks/freeagency/faqs.html

    Can a team sign free agents and then re-sign their own free agents using the player's Bird rights?
    Yes, however a team's free agent counts towards the team's salary against the cap while he is unsigned. In order to gain additional cap room to sign other free agents, a team would have to renounce their own player's Bird rights, meaning they give up the ability to exceed the salary cap by re-signing their player.

     




    And I demonstrated to you last year how the C's could have renounced all the deadwood on the cap hold from the last twenty years and the players they had no interest in resigning or using in S&T's as well as KG to get well under the cap hold. Had they resigned KG to a more modest contract ($7-8MM) they could have had enough space for Terry and then resign the other players with Bird Rts. You don't have to renounce all your Bd Rts players ... Just one or a few like KG that get $20MM to create all sorts of possible options.

     

    So AGAIN ... where does it say you can't sign your own Bd Rts players to go over the cap if you have created enough salary cap space/cap hold space to fit a free agent in before doing so?  IT DOESN"T!!!!    In fact it supports my claim ... It says YES, HOWEVER you may need to renounce players and lose bird rts to get under the cap. They had to renounce KG's $20MM cap hold and resign him first and work from there to fit Terry under the cap and then resign their own Bd Rts players. Danny blew it announcing the MLE too soon and then tried to work a S&T and ran out of time. Had he been successful, he would have been able to go over the cap and still have the MLE for another player ... Read for comprehension and learn how to interpret rather than convince yourself that "it's a rule."  It's not a rule ... and don't give me that "then why hasn't anybody done it since" crap. It isn't very often that you have half a roster and a $20MM player coming off contract that enables a team to renounce him and resign him for less than half he was getting (Most Bd Rts players are in the middle of the careers and resign for more ... it was an unusual situation that KG could be signed for far less than his previous year salary/cap hold). And we'll never know if KG would have signed for $8MM since it was a moot point once Danny was forced to use the MLE for Terry cause he could pay his Bd Rts players whatever he wanted within the rules but failed to get a home town dsct from KG anyway.

     



    Seriously, are you really that dumb?

     

    Here:

    http://greenstreet.weei.com/sports/boston/basketball/celtics/2012/02/22/what-if-the-celtics-don%E2%80%99t-make-a-move/

    Expected salary cap for 2012-13 season: $58 million (Note: The cap is set after the season, but for the purposes of this exercise, the $58 million figure will do.)

    It’s important to remember that the Celtics’ cap space is theoretical. The eight free agents, plus assorted other blasts from the past represent over $95 million in “cap holds.” (See Sham Sports salary page for details).

    In order to use that space one of two things have to happen. Either the free agent player signs with another team, or the player’s rights are renounced.

     

    Remove KG's 22m cap hold and the Celts and still way over the cap. Get it?

    95m - 22 = 73m

    The salary cap for last season was 58m.

    I can't believe you're having a hard time understanding a simple thing like that.

     

     



    As usual you change the subject whenever someone gets the best of you!  Answer the question! 

     

      So AGAIN ... where does it say you can't sign your own Bd Rts players to go over the cap if you have created enough salary cap space/cap hold space to fit a free agent in before doing so?

    You're brainless and always will be ... have you looked at the 2011-12 cap hold?

    http://www.hoopdata.com/salaries/BOS.aspx

    Renouncing the cap hold for inactive players and Ray & KG would have put the team salary down to the $48MM figure. Then they could have resigned KG for say $8MM and Terry for $5MM and been right to the limit before signing their own free agents that weren't renounced with their Bird Rts taking them over the cap ... all legit!!!

     
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    Re: Stay the course

    CRICKETS .... Or are you waving the WHITE FLAG for the first time since joining this board?

     
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    Re: Stay the course

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

    In response to Celtsfan4life's comment:

     

     

    Big Al, Gerald Green, and the ohers are NOT, repeat NOT Hall of Fame players.   Big Al is not even an all star.  Gerald Green?   Get real, he's a first round pick and sits the bench.  He was a mistake and Danny traded the mistake and the has beens like Telfair for Garnett.  Only Big Al was worth anything and even he, as noted, is not a top Tier player - not an all star and certainly not a hall of famer who carries a team.  So, good for Danny, he did trade mid-level players for a superstar who brought us a championship when teamed with other superstars and some great role players.

     

     

     



    You misunderstood what was said.

     

    OneOnOne said players signed for the MLE, not mid-level ability.

    So you know a player that was signed for the MLE of 5m that got traded for a star player?



    That is simply not true,  You are MAKING THINGS UP to support your advance knowledge  with this poster.  I haven't said players sign for MLE.  I rarely even think about  MLE let alone talk about it.  Why do you make this crap up?

     
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    Re: Stay the course

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

    In response to OneOnOne's comment:

     

    That is simply not true,  You are MAKING THINGS UPto support your advance knowledge  with this poster.  I haven't said players sign for MLE.  I rarely even think about  MLE let alone talk about it.  Why do you make this crap up?

     

     



    Here:

     

    Re: Build Through The Draft

    posted at 5/13/2013 7:44 AM EDT

    • OneOnOne
    • Posts: 6591
    • First: 1/3/2009
    • Last: 5/16/2013

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

     

    In response to prakash's comment:

     

    Fierce, trying to follow OKC is like so many teams trying to follow the 3-guard strategy after the Pistons' success.  For one OKC there are the Bulls, Clippers, Portland, Charlotte and others.  At the end of the day, it is very simple, you have to maximize every opportunity: draft, free-agents and trades.  And then you have to hope to be in the right place at the right time to make that big hit.

    Remember, the Celts had the best odds to get the first pick to draft Duncan?  San Antonio was nowhere in the odds picture.  Ended up in a disaster.  Same with the 2007 draft.  The Celts ended up with Jeff Green, instead of Durant, whom they traded and got back but you don't consider him to be a special player.

     



    Like I said, when was the last time the Celts signed a free-agent All-Star player? 

     

    And I mean not a washed up All-Star player like Rasheed Wallace.

     

    If the Celts got Durant in 2007 then Ainge would not have traded Durant.

    Here's the thing, how do you acquire assets? 

    It's only through the draft that you can get quality players that you can use in a trade.

    Having the 21st pick every year because you keep fighting for the 7th or 8th seed is a waste of time.

     



    so signing mid level players can't be used in trades for top tier players.  Again building thru the draft is not the ONLY way as you have suggested,  it is merely one way.  Not very many teams are successful going that route either.

     

    I see you are trying to make it look like I said the bolded part.  

    Again  where did I say something about the MLE??  I sure never said the part you have bolded.  I actually insinuated that you can do exactly that.  Again and follow closely-  we got KG for basically junk players and one middle of the pack player in Al.  Where is it?  Dude you need some sleep.  Take a few hours off from this site and come back refreshed. You are flooding this thread with so many posts you are either making things up or flat out don't know what you and others are posting.

     
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    Re: Stay the course

    In response to OneOnOne's comment:

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

     

    In response to OneOnOne's comment:

     

    That is simply not true,  You are MAKING THINGS UPto support your advance knowledge  with this poster.  I haven't said players sign for MLE.  I rarely even think about  MLE let alone talk about it.  Why do you make this crap up?

     

     



    Here:

     

    Re: Build Through The Draft

    posted at 5/13/2013 7:44 AM EDT

    • OneOnOne
    • Posts: 6591
    • First: 1/3/2009
    • Last: 5/16/2013

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

     

    In response to prakash's comment:

     

    Fierce, trying to follow OKC is like so many teams trying to follow the 3-guard strategy after the Pistons' success.  For one OKC there are the Bulls, Clippers, Portland, Charlotte and others.  At the end of the day, it is very simple, you have to maximize every opportunity: draft, free-agents and trades.  And then you have to hope to be in the right place at the right time to make that big hit.

    Remember, the Celts had the best odds to get the first pick to draft Duncan?  San Antonio was nowhere in the odds picture.  Ended up in a disaster.  Same with the 2007 draft.  The Celts ended up with Jeff Green, instead of Durant, whom they traded and got back but you don't consider him to be a special player.

     



    Like I said, when was the last time the Celts signed a free-agent All-Star player? 

     

    And I mean not a washed up All-Star player like Rasheed Wallace.

     

    If the Celts got Durant in 2007 then Ainge would not have traded Durant.

    Here's the thing, how do you acquire assets? 

    It's only through the draft that you can get quality players that you can use in a trade.

    Having the 21st pick every year because you keep fighting for the 7th or 8th seed is a waste of time.

     



    so signing mid level players can't be used in trades for top tier players.  Again building thru the draft is not the ONLY way as you have suggested,  it is merely one way.  Not very many teams are successful going that route either.

     

     

    I see you are trying to make it look like I said the bolded part.  

    Again  where did I say something about the MLE??  I sure never said the part you have bolded.  I actually insinuated that you can do exactly that.  Again and follow closely-  we got KG for basically junk players and one middle of the pack player in Al.  Where is it?  Dude you need some sleep.  Take a few hours off from this site and come back refreshed. You are flooding this thread with so many posts you are either making things up or flat out don't know what you and others are posting.




    LOL  Yet another one calls fierce out for what he is....

     
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    Re: Stay the course

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

    OneOnOne

    I hope you're ready to be off this board for 1 year.



    the thing is ,  it wouldn't bother me in the least.  I do have another life.  With you,  hmmm,  I am sure you wouldn't honor it since you didn't the last time.   

     
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    Re: Stay the course

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

    In response to OneOnOne's comment:

     

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

     

    OneOnOne

    I hope you're ready to be off this board for 1 year.

     



    the thing is ,  it wouldn't bother me in the least.  I do have another life.  With you,  hmmm,  I am sure you wouldn't honor it since you didn't the last time.   

     

     



    I'm here to prove a point. You want to make it 2 years instead of just 1 year?

     



    The only pt you proved was you couldn't pull up my post saying what you said I did.  So in the Fiercest tradition you changed the course and focused on something else.

    Do you honor your bets?  Everyone here knows you didn't honor the last one.  What makes me think you will honor this one?  When a person makes a bet and loses,  they don't say, "so and so said this so I had come back early to defend my name".  Thats not how we make bets in my part of the world.

    Again- answer this question-  do YOU honor your bets?  It is a yes no question.

     
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    Re: Stay the course

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

    In response to Mployee8's comment:

     

    Renouncing the cap hold for inactive players and Ray & KG would have put the team salary down to the $48MM figure. Then they could have resigned KG for say $8MM and Terry for $5MM and been right to the limit before signing their own free agents that weren't renounced with their Bird Rts taking them over the cap ... all legit!!!

     



    Wrong!

     

    Renouncing KG, Ray, and the other inactive players didn't bring the Celts below the cap.

    Where did you get that 48m figure?

    You really think I don't have the facts to backup my claims?

    Here:

    http://greenstreet.weei.com/sports/boston/basketball/celtics/2012/06/11/celtics-salary-cap-and-free-agency-faq/

    OK, so that’s about $20 million in cap space, let’s go shopping, right?

    Not so fast. We haven’t accounted for cap holds.

    Prospective free agents are still bound to their former team’s cap by their Bird rights. The rule is designed to allow teams to go over the cap to retain their own free agents, but it’s also in place to prevent teams from loading up on free agents and then re-signing their own players.

    In other words, you can’t have both.

    How much are cap holds worth?

    A lot. The Celtics have over $87 million in cap holds, including holds on players like Nenad Krstic, Michael Finley and Stephon Marbury.

    In terms of the cap, everything is an asset until it turns into a liability. The Mavericks were able to get Jason Kidd from the Nets by including Keith Van Horn in a sign-and-trade, even though Van Horn had stopped playing but had not officially retired. The new CBA closes that loophole, but the Celtics have had no need to get under the cap, so those holds sit until it’s time to get rid of them.

    Here are some of the more important holds, or cap charges:

    Kevin Garnett: $22.3 million

    Ray Allen: $15 million

    Jeff Green: $11.1 million

    Nenad Krstic: $8.3 million

    Brandon Bass: $8 million

    Keyon Dooling: $2.9 million

    Stephon Marbury: $1.44 million (seriously)

    Total amount on the cap including salaries, options, draft picks and cap holds: $119 million

    Once again you didn't read what I wrote for comprehension! Try again ....

    Renouncing the cap hold for inactive players and Ray & KG would have put the team salary down to the $48MM figure. Then they could have resigned KG for say $8MM and Terry for $5MM and been right to the limit before signing their own free agents that weren't renounced with their Bird Rts taking them over the cap.

    So after what I wrote above, why do you use this as your argument ????

    > Here are some of the more important holds, or cap charges:

    Kevin Garnett: $22.3 million

    Ray Allen: $15 million

    Jeff Green: $11.1 million

    Nenad Krstic: $8.3 million

    Brandon Bass: $8 million

    Keyon Dooling: $2.9 million

    Stephon Marbury: $1.44 million

     

    Other than Green and Bass, those are all the players I indicated would be renounced to get down to $48MM .... Do you ignore everything others write and make up your own scenario in your head? You can't even decipher what's staring you in the face cause you're so intent on being right even when the facts in front of you say otherwise.

     

    Now I'm done with this ... Maybe you can't move on but I can ... Good luck with your new bet!

     
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    Re: Stay the course

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

     

    Like I said, Mployee, once again you're wrong.

    Actually it's simple math, Mployee.

    Remove KG's 22.3m and Ray's 15m from 119m, the total will be 81.7m

    So where did you get that 48m?

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

     


    http://www.hoopdata.com/salaries/BOS.aspx

     

    Player Option Team Option Guaranteed Unguaranteed Qualifying Offer Released 2 Last Updated: September 14, 2010 3 Boston Celtics 4 Player 2010-2011 2011-2012 2012-2013 2013-2014 2014-2015 2014-2016 5 Kevin Garnett $18,832,044 $21,247,044 $0 $0 $0 $0 6 Paul Pierce $13,876,321 $15,333,334 $16,790,345 $15,333,334 $0 $0 7 Ray Allen $10,000,000 $10,000,000 $0 $0 $0 $0 8 Rajon Rondo $9,090,909 $10,045,455 $11,000,000 $11,954,545 $12,909,091 $0 9 Jermaine O'Neal $5,765,000 $6,226,200 $0 $0 $0 $0 10 Kendrick Perkins $4,640,208 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 11 Nate Robinson $4,200,000 $4,500,000 $0 $0 $0 $0 12 Rasheed Wallace $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 13 Glen Davis $3,000,004 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 14 Marquis Daniels $2,388,000 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 15 Avery Bradley $1,418,160 $1,524,480 $1,630,800 $2,511,432 $3,581,302 $0 16 Shaquille O'Neal $1,352,181 $1,399,507 $0 $0 $0 $0 17 Von Wafer $854,389 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 18 Delonte West $854,389 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0 19 Tony Gaffney $762,195 $1,059,293 $0 $0 $0 $0 20 Oliver Lafayette $762,195 $1,059,293 $0 $0 $0 $0 21 Semih Erden $473,604 $788,872 $0 $0 $0 $0 22 Luke Harangody $473,604 $788,872 $0 $0 $0 $0 23 Total Guaranteed $75,510,035 $70,276,020 $27,790,345 $15,954,545 $12,909,091 $0 24 Note: Player Options are included in Guaranteed Salary unless otherwise noted. Team Options and Qualifying Offers are not included unless otherwise noted. Only the guaranteed amount of partially unguaranteed contracts is included. 25 Note: Pierce's contract is guaranteed for $4,000,000 in 2013-2014, which is the figure included in Guaranteed Salary. 26   27 Cap Space Projection (Includes Minimum Cap Holds Required - Draft Positions Are Rough Estimates) 28 Pick #23 (BOS) $1,035,200 First Round Scale Salary 29 Pick #53 (BOS) $490,180 Minimum Rookie Salary 30 Total with Holds (6) $71,801,400   31 Projected Cap $58,044,000   32 Maximum Cap Space -$13,757,400   33 Note: A team must have some combination of 12 players and cap holds at all times in offseason. When a player is signed, it removes one of these cap holds and replaces it with the value of the new contract. 34   35 Other Cap Holds 36 Mid-Level Exception $5,765,000 Estimated 37 Bi-Annual Exception $2,180,000   38 Kendrick Perkins $9,280,416 Bird; 200% of Previous Salary 39 Glen Davis $6,000,008 Bird; 200% of Previous Salary 40 Marquis Daniels $3,104,400 Early Bird; 130% of Previous Salary 41 Roshown McLeod $4,527,003 Bird; 300% of Previous Salary 42 Stephon Marbury $1,440,000 Non-Bird; 120% of Previous Salary 43 Dana Barros $854,389 Minimum Salary 44 P.J. Brown $854,389 Minimum Salary 45 Mark Bryant $854,389 Minimum Salary 46 Grant Long $854,389 Minimum Salary 47 Michael Olowokandi $854,389 Minimum Salary 48 Scot Pollard $854,389 Minimum Salary 49 Brian Scalabrine $6,827,586 Bird; 200% of Previous Salary 50 Marquis Daniels $2,388,000 Non-Bird; 120% of Previous Salary 51 Von Wafer $884,293 Minimum Salary 52 Delonte West $884,293 Minimum Salary 53 Total Cap Holds $48,407,333   

     

    I made it easy for you with a crayon ... Green for those players included and red for those renounced ... Other Cap Holds ($48,407,333) includes the MLE & BAE as well as ex-players still on the cap hold that would be renounced along with KG & Ray. This Other Cap Hold and the Guaranteed Salaries ($70,276,020) account for the total cap hold you site over and over again which is meaningless once renounced. $70,276,020 + $48,407,333 = $118,683,353 or the 119MM you quoted or stole from your source as ironclad proof. LOL!!!

    Original Guaranteed Salaries $70,276,020

    LessRenounced:

    KG                                              $21,247,044

    Ray                                            $10,000,000

    Pick #23                                    $1,035,200

    Pick #53                                       $490,180

    MLE                                            $5,765,000                    

    BAE                                            $2,180,000

    Total Salaries for

    12 Players & 2                         $48,499,356 


    Note: A team must have some combination of 12 players and cap holds at all times in offseason. When a player is signed, it removes one of these cap holds and replaces it with the value of the new contract. (Editorial note: When a player is signed, not after all players are signed ... the cap is refigured after each contract is signed)

     

     
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