Stern to blame

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: Stern to blame

    as I read the terms "watered down product"...."league contraction"......it takes me back to the '80's and the 'Big Four"......exactly four teams won titles during that decade....how many teams have a legitimate shot of winning nowadays.....?

    taking a look back through the decades....using the mid point (as in '74/'75) to determine the number of teams in the league for each decade...

    '50's.....8 teams....6 champions (75%)

    '60's.....8 teams....2 champions (25% the decade of the Celtics' dominance)

    '70's....18 teams...8 champions  (44%)

    '80's....23 teams...4 champions (17%)

    '90's....27 teams...4 champions (15%)

    '00's....30 teams...5 champions (17%)

    I see better athletes....but not better basketball.....the rules are no longer enforced as "the Jordan rules" took over....I do not think that "more" equals to "better".....I'd go back to around 20 teams if it were my decision...
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Red-16Russ-11. Show Red-16Russ-11's posts

    Re: Stern to blame

    In Response to Re: Stern to blame:
    [QUOTE]So let me get this straight--you believe that a soft cap "favors the Lakers?" & that's why you want to do away with it? First, Jerry Buss is not the richest owner in the NBA. It's Paul Allen who owns the Blazers. 2nd, Jerry Buss wanted to let Lamar Odom go (which I hoped he would) but Odom went to the owner to ask to stay on the team. Buss gutted the 2nd unit to save cash & had Mitch sign some dinasours that gave nothing to the season. Buss is dependent upon his primary earnings from the Lakers. Other owners have a primary business outside of the NBA, e.g., Mark Cuban, Mickey Arison. Just because your team is in a bigger market doesn't mean you're going to be successful. I suspect New York is a bigger market than Boston and Boston is a bigger market than San Antonio. Success in the NBA has a lot of factors involved. Hating the Lakers isn't one of them. So get your blinders off & see this dispute for what it truly is--a battle royal among the owners themselves. & there is an incentive to destroy the season by those that are failing miserably, wanting to have a hard cap, force players with much lower salaries to stay with a team permanently until they're washed up. This won't make the NBA any more competitive, any more successful. It will just mean that players will no longer be able to collude with one another to go to team and a city of their choice. You want to attack L.A. for getting Gasol, well if these failed NBA franchises had their way, Ray Allen & Kevin Garnett would still be suffering in some failed franchise & you wouldn't have your 1 title the past 2 decades. Poeple will lose interest if smaller markets dominate the NBA--who watched the Spurs-Cleveland series?
    Posted by LakerFan67[/QUOTE]

    Stopped reading after the first paragraph...........Buss is 77 years old for God's sake, what does, "his primary earnings come from owning the lakers" even mean at 77?  He could sell the team, and still die a very rich man..you are implying that he MADE his money from owning the lakers, which is not true.  He made his money in real estate investing..........and he OWNS Staples Center where THREE pro teams play!!   Methinks you are the one with the blinders on.  The 87.5 million he paid in 1979 wouldn't even buy 1/3 of a team today............since you are incapable of being objective on this topic, onto ignore you go avenger!!
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: Stern to blame

      Each decade has its share of lousy teams. To be in favor of contraction now would mean that contraction would also have been in order back in the 60,s and 80's.
          Here are the numbers for the lousy teams of the 60's,80's and 2000's.
     
      Percentage of teams playing under .400%.
      60's---- 26.2%
      80's---- 26.4%
      20's---- 24.7%
       Percentage of teams playing under .300%
      60's---- 10.7%
      80's---- 12.3%
      20's---- 11.1% 

      As you can see, contraction, if desireable, would be so for financial reasons only.

      Seems
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: Stern to blame

    In Response to Re: Stern to blame:
    [QUOTE]  Each decade has its share of lousy teams. To be in favor of contraction now would mean that contraction would also have been in order back in the 60,s and 80's.       Here are the numbers for the lousy teams of the 60's,80's and 2000's.     Percentage of teams playing under .400%.   60's---- 26.2%   80's---- 27.2%   20's---- 24.7%    Percentage of teams playing under .300%   60's---- 10.7%   80's---- 12.3%   20's---- 11.1%    As you can see, contraction, if desireable, would be so for financial reasons only.   Seems
    Posted by SeemsToMe[/QUOTE]

    I know that in 2011 America it is totally un-American but why can't we just let the market do what the market does and if that means that 8 teams cease to exist and there are fewer uneducated spoiled brats with Bentleys and trying to memorize how to make a Big Mac, so be it.  I don't care about the financial implications for the teams that would be contracted because that is what the market does.  All businesses run break even eventually - some start out losing money and then make a lot and vice versa but I believe economic theory says all businesses run break even in the long run, well they are artifically propping up the market with all of these nonsensical rules.  Let the market prevail and the basketball quality would increase dramatically and there would be many better players on every single team and den many of duh brudders wou hah ta go bat to da hood - oh well.
     
  5. This post has been removed.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: Stern to blame

    OK, just for arguement's sake....if the league contracted to 20 teams they could then hold a draft....as each team chose a player they could eliminate another player (now, of course this couldn't be done with contracts and all....but suppose the NBA had no guaranteed contracts just like the NFL...?) ......then when the draft was completed the rosters would be reshaped and one third of the (former) players would be out of work...you don't think the rosters top to bottom would be filled with many more skilled players...? I do....I mean....how couldn't each remaining team be stronger than before..?

    There might still be some marginal talent on rosters.....but each subsequent draft would bring in great young talent (i.e. Derrick Rose type talent)....players would need to excel to keep from losing their jobs to more talented players....the league would be much stronger immediately and would only get stronger in the coming years in my.....just my opinion...

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Stern to blame

    In Response to Stern to blame:
    [QUOTE]After much thought I have come to the conclusion that David Stern is the villain in all of this and not the owners of the players.  He has tried to play god with the NBA trying to build it into something that it is NOT.  While some good has come with his exploiting the game into Europe and other continents......his lust for growing the game beyond it's potential has gone too far.  He has added teams into areas that cannot promote a professional basketball team and by doing such has watered down the NBA to a rag tag bunch of athletes who are only in it for the money because they know they are playing for franchises that no remote possibility for winning a championship.  These small market teams can only, at most, have one all star caliber player and everyone knows if you are going to win a championship you need to have at least 2 with a few players who on any given night can play like an all star...... So now you have teams that have put an I in team and everyone knows the only thing you can do when that occurs to fatten your stats with the hopes that someone will vastly overpay you because they want to hopefully fill empty seats.......which will not occur in small market cities regardless of who you have on your team (see Miami) An item that I do not see on the table is to consolidate the number of teams that will support basketball, fire Stern, as he is just an egotistical bstrd, who is destroying the real game of basketball by watering it down. I honestly feel that these two would go a long way to solving the problem.
    Posted by damfuno[/QUOTE]

    Stern is not totally to blame since the owners are the ones to do these truly dumb overpaid contracts.  However, you make an excellent point about the leagues over expansion to small markets.  Those markets simply cannot support a team.  The bottom 5 or 6 markets should give up their teams and let their players go in a draft to the other teams.  All teams will get stronger and more competitive......and we'll see better basketball with more good players on fewer teams (and the poor players at the end of the bench will deservedly be out of the league).

    I like your points here, Damfuno.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beat-Boston. Show Beat-Boston's posts

    Re: Stern to blame

    In Response to Re: Stern to blame:
    [QUOTE]As much as I'd like to heap all the blame onto Stern, I dont see it that way. Stern doesnt force the owners into anything. This is a negotiation going on for alot of money. A point in either direction is a ton over the course of the new CBA and sets in stone the premise for the next CBA negotiation down the road. The owners arent stupid and know this is the time for them to take a stand. THey will outlast the players who are probably already starting to fracture, especially the lower paid guys. Stern isnt conducting the owners. His influence isnt going to make them forego billions of dollars imo. Now, everything else you posted about Stern Im in agreement with. His gestapo tactics about everyone keeping their mouths shut re4garding criticisms....His talent pool of inept & tainted refs, his targeting of certain players/teams, his edicts to refs how to call certain games, even the puppet NBA announcers who'll stand by the nba and its ref's regardless of the obvious bias is sickening and has turned me away from basketball. The game has gone backwards imo. Its not entertaining watching games become FT contests. ITs not entertaining anymore watching the muscle flex or finger stuck in an electrical socket scream after every dunk. Its not entertaining watching ESPN game highlights of only dunks. ITs not entertaining watching refs destroy game after game with ZERO retribution. Its not entertaining watching so amny "skilled" players unable to make a 15 foot shot. Its not entertaining watching every opssession be either a dunk attempt or 3 pt shot. There's no more mid range game. Theres too many athletes that dont possess the skills. The days of the Dream Team are over. The NBA is no longer dominate over the rest of the world. We dont play the game the way we did years ago. ITs mostly one-on one, ala Kobe & Lebron.... its mostly Dunks & FT's.... I miss the days of seeing a 3-4 minute stretch of whistle-less fast break ball.. The game has deteriorated in a marketing machine... pumping up the chosen players, giving them preferential treatment on the court... turning them into idols to attract fans and improve the NBA brand.  Fans fall for it!! Regurgitating whatever they hear from ESPN or the NBA as the gospel. I cant even enjoy a game live...with all the blasting music during every single second time is out. ITs like the NBA needs to be in your face or entertaining you until youre brainwashed to their satisfaction. As a side note, years ago the NBA used to have a half time (prerecorded on tv)  ONE-ON-ONE contest with nba players.. Now that was fun to watch. I remember Jo Jo White did pretty good.  OF course, this couldnt happen these days with its stars. Imagine the hit the NBA marketing monster would take if Lebron lost to some backup point guard.
    Posted by Karllost[/QUOTE]

    The Cs are the biggest offenders of extending games beyond what they should be. They have had a very "old team" for the last couple of years. They cannot play fast break basketball for more than 2 minutes at a time. They call more timeouts than any other team because they are winded.

    A regular timeout now lasts 2-3 minutes when at one time it was one minute. Then we have 20-second timeouts that last 1-2 minutes. Any wonder why a washed-up 350 pound Shaq at 40 was still playing in the NBA?

    The NBA continually allows the endless timeouts. 7 regular timeouts per half and the seemingly endless 20-second timeouts on top of that. Want to speed up the game? Give the teams 3 timeouts per half, similar to the NBA.

    This is why I am becoming more and more a hockey fan. There is more constant action in hockey than in basketball.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Stern to blame

    In Response to Re: Stern to blame:
    [QUOTE]OK, just for arguement's sake....if the league contracted to 20 teams they could then hold a draft....as each team chose a player they could eliminate another player (now, of course this couldn't be done with contracts and all....but suppose the NBA had no guaranteed contracts just like the NFL...?) ......then when the draft was completed the rosters would be reshaped and one third of the (former) players would be out of work...you don't think the rosters top to bottom would be filled with many more skilled players...? I do....I mean....how couldn't each remaining team be stronger than before..? There might still be some marginal talent on rosters.....but each subsequent draft would bring in great young talent (i.e. Derrick Rose type talent)....players would need to excel to keep from losing their jobs to more talented players....the league would be much stronger immediately and would only get stronger in the coming years in my.....just my opinion...
    Posted by Duke4[/QUOTE]


    Yea....what he said!!!
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dirty52. Show dirty52's posts

    Re: Stern to blame


    Anschutz Entertainment Group owns Staples Center


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschutz_Entertainment_Group
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from LakerFan67. Show LakerFan67's posts

    Re: Stern to blame

    Some Boston fans should quit focusing on the Lakers and look at the issues that created the lockout. It's a battle royal among wealthy owners. Those that have failed want to create a system that locks in players for life and minimizes their salaries. Any NBA player would have to be a fool to roll over & accept it.

    You think a hard cap with unmovable players will guarantee that the Lakers will not threaten your 17 titles. I could care less about catching the Celtic titles. I believe in the free enterprise system that allows players to eventually move after 4 or 5 years. If they want to move to Boston, Memphis, Miami, New York so be it.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from puddinpuddin. Show puddinpuddin's posts

    Re: Stern to blame

    In Response to Re: Stern to blame:
    [QUOTE]Some Boston fans should quit focusing on the Lakers and look at the issues that created the lockout. It's a battle royal among wealthy owners. Those that have failed want to create a system that locks in players for life and minimizes their salaries. Any NBA player would have to be a fool to roll over & accept it. You think a hard cap with unmovable players will guarantee that the Lakers will not threaten your 17 titles. I could care less about catching the Celtic titles. I believe in the free enterprise system that allows players to eventually move after 4 or 5 years. If they want to move to Boston, Memphis, Miami, New York so be it.
    Posted by LakerFan67[/QUOTE]

    Instead of rolling over and accepting a bad deal that restricts salaries and movement in the slightest, the players are certainly free to start their own league if they really adhere to the concept of a perfect free enterprise system.

    Then they could go head to head with their arch nemeses and make them pay big time.

    Pud
     
  13. This post has been removed.

     
  14. This post has been removed.

     
  15. This post has been removed.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from jrleftfoot. Show jrleftfoot's posts

    Re: Stern to blame

    There are a lot of pathetic people whining away on here because they have nothing better to do with their lives.Wha , those nasty players won`t cave in to the owners.Don`t they know that`s the new american way?I want my basketball! I might have to get off the couch if they don`t start playing by Christmas.the owners are our friends!Guess what.This is a lockout ,not a strike.I know its become the american way to cave in to management, but that`s the problem, not the solution.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from LakerFan67. Show LakerFan67's posts

    Re: Stern to blame

    I'm with the workers, that is the players. Some of you keep getting fixated on player salaries. It sounds more like petty envy rather than looking at the facts. The owners artificially created this lockout not the players. It was the owners that established the current system, not the players. And some owners (Cleveland's Dan Gilbert is so angry at Lebron for leaving that he's willing to sabotage any deal with the players) out of spite.

    Lebron, Wade & Bosh have created an uproar among failing NBA franchises, believing that a new agreement must be put in place to lock players to a crappy market with a crappy team that pays them a crappy salary. How many years did Garnett give to Minneapolis, James give to Cleveland? Quality players don't want to rot their careers away in some backwater dump, with a cheap owner, mediocre support & not have a chance to win a title.

    Some of you Boston fans are siding with the owners and have lost sight who the true culprits are. I was glad to see Carmelo force his way out of Denver. He has a right to eventually be free to choose a team after wallowing for years in Colorado. So I side with the players. I know they aren't angels but next to Stern & the majority of the owners, I say let the players have the option to eventually leave if they wish.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from LakerFan67. Show LakerFan67's posts

    Re: Stern to blame

    These failing NBA teams & their owners want "revenue sharing" that saves them from their incompetent selves. The screw-ups want the successful franchises to come to their rescue, crying about player salaries, whining about collusion among players, and resenting those teams that are succeeding.

    With only 5 elite teams out of the 30, it's no wonder the failures want to be bailed out. Draft, trade, & plan properly, hire an effective coach & you have a shot. I don't feel sorry for Donald Sterling, owner of the Clippers or Glen Taylor owner of the Wolves. You draft poorly, trade poorly, pay cheaply & then you want the successful NBA owners to bail you out. & because you have incompetents making bad decisions, you want to take it out on the hides of NBA players.

    Michael Jordan is now an owner. Look at this guy's track record when it comes to drafting players--Kwame Brown or Adam Morrison. How many high picks have the Clippers been gift-wrapped because of of their cheap skate owner?

    No, I won't side with the owners over the players. If the Atlanta Hawks are dumb enough to give Joe Johnson a 6 year, $120 million dollar obscene contract, that's not the fault of the 5 successful franchises. Both Rashard Lewis and Gilbert Arenas were way overpaid because of the stupidity of management not the players.

    & while this lockout is ongoing, TV contracts are required to pay NBA owners in spite of it--that gives them the upper hand in extending it.
     
  19. This post has been removed.

     
  20. This post has been removed.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Red-16Russ-11. Show Red-16Russ-11's posts

    Re: Stern to blame

    In Response to Re: Stern to blame:
    [QUOTE]How many years did Garnett give to Minneapolis, James give to Cleveland? Quality players don't want to rot their careers away in some backwater dump, with a cheap owner, mediocre support & not have a chance to win a title. Minneapolis and Cleveland are backwater dump? Laker fans are so proud that they have 16 championships. Does this mean 5 out of the 16 titles are "backwater dump titles"?
    Posted by Fiercest34[/QUOTE]

    Wasn't he arguing the other way yesterday?
     
  22. This post has been removed.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Stern to blame

    I don't like the Lakers but that doesn't stop me from seeing good logic even from a Laker fan.  Lakerfan67 makes a lot of good points and i happen to agree with most of them.  Most of all, I agree that the owners have been their own worst enemy when they give those truly dumb, too long contracts.   I've named Curry, Houston, the Posey bailout by Indiana that affected my Celts, and Laker mentions the Joe Johnson deal.  The owners compete against each other and they have no discipline.....no ability to say no.   They keep upping the ante on each other and wake up to find that they have signed stupid contracts.   Perhaps they should become better businessmen and simply say "no, I won't go over my cap and incur a penalty.  I'm not going to give you that 5 year contract that locks you in to massive amounts of money when you are too old to perform!".   Isn't it in their power to just say no?

    let's stop blaming that on the players.  Smart business people know when to say no and to hold the line on paying too much to mediocre performers and only pay the top performers!

    I think the players have moved their position significantly and its time for the owners to stop being greedy billionairs and compromise with the people who make the league - the players.
     
  24. This post has been removed.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from LakerFan67. Show LakerFan67's posts

    Re: Stern to blame

    No one is putting a knife to the throats of owners when they decided to buy an NBA franchise. Those Boston fans that side with the owners must be independently wealthy or believe in socialism for the rich. And if you don't either of these 2 categories, you've really been brain-washed by the most privileged.

    What the failing franchises want is to be bailed out by the most successful owners. And they amount to maybe 5 teams. There is system in place in the current NBA that gives opportunities for every NBA team to improve. That's the draft. If you're a LOSER, you get to pic the cream of the college crop every year. There is also free agency. If you plan effectively, you can get quality players to improve your team.

    Some owners have been more effective at playing by the rules of the system to improve and some have not. Those that have not are in the majority and now they want to change the rules further because of their incompetence, their inability to select and maintain quality talent, and for some, their unwillignness to pay for free agents.

    So lets further game and marginalize the system for the trash franchises & their incompetent management by penalyzing the few successful franchises. And will create a lockout & blame the players for the failure of most teams. We'll establish a hard cap and limit free agency, coupled with lowering salaries.

    Believe me, this has nothing to do with Celtic or Laker success. So those few of you who can't think and are blinded by hatred of the opposition, look at this lockout for what it is. Failed franchises trying to manipulate the rules on the hides of players and the few successful teams.
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share