Stiemsma to Start Tonight

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    Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight

    In Response to Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight:
    [QUOTE]Antiqueman, I agree with you.  Stiemsma is proof of that theory.  When you put the guy out there with the starters, he will settle in and make some plays.  He'll still make rookie mistakes but he'll learn and develop quicker and he just might add some energy.  Stiemsma's jump shot looked sharp and he got alot of confidence playing.  If Doc continued to play him more and more, he could develop into a solid, serviceable center. I believe the same holds true for JJJ and EM.  They may develop at a different pace than Stiemsma (slower or faster) but I believe they would provide some positive energy if given that opportunity. We have this expectation that during garbage time, which is basically the only time they get, they should make 3 straight jump shots and play lockdown defense but it's just not going to happen.  I think we can afford to put Moore in for Ray and JJJ in for Bass with KG playing center during the game - 2nd quarter stretch or something.  I'd even say that the next time we get up by 20 before halftime, that's the time to do it.
    Posted by Petey62[/QUOTE]
    I would say you could do it against the weak(er) teams, regardless of the score.
    Doc, you reading this thread!!??
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Petey62. Show Petey62's posts

    Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight

    I just believe that we took the time to evaluate and then draft these guys, then we should believe in them enough to put them on the court.

    We tend to second-guess our scouts as it pertains to our draft picks.  I think we made two decent selections especially when you see who was picked after JJJ and Moore.

    Why not trust in the scouting department and see what these guys can bring?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from futbal. Show futbal's posts

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    A lot of this logic is putting the cart before the horse. Stiemsa is shooting, rebounding and blocking shots now because he already could do so. He showed that in the D-League and in practice/scrimmages.  Rookies don't magically develop skills by playing with the starters; just the opposite, they first develop skills that are at an NBA level, and then they get to play some meaningful minutes. 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Petey62. Show Petey62's posts

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    In Response to Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight:
    [QUOTE]A lot of this logic is putting the cart before the horse. Stiemsa is shooting, rebounding and blocking shots now because he already could do so. He showed that in the D-League and in practice/scrimmages.  Rookies don't magically develop skills by playing with the starters; just the opposite, they first develop skills that are at an NBA level, and then they get to play some meaningful minutes. 
    Posted by futbal[/QUOTE]
    futbal, I see your point but I'll take JJJ for example.  He was a consensus All-American, Big Ten Defensive and Big Ten Player of the Year.  You don't earn that without having the skills to compete at the next level.  I understand what you say about practice/scrimmages but JJJ already has the skills to play in the NBA.  And with the few practices/scrimmages that will be available, it's tough to expect to see much there.  We all know Stiemsma was not a cinch to even make the roster so you just never know until he gets on the court.  It was reported that JON had one of the best camps of anybody (practices/scrimmages) but it did not translate in game action.  In the NBA, practice means NOTHING!

    You are right that they would not "magically develop skills by playing with the starters".  He (JJJ) has the skills but playing with the starters and getting the in-game guidance from these guys will more easily "hone" those skills.  Playing with KG, Ray, Pierce and Rondo and the continuity they bring would benefit him and provide him to more easily display those skills.  In garbage time, there is no structure, continuity or flow.  If he were able to play with some of that, similar to what Stiemsma is getting an opportunity to do, it would greatly benefit his development.

    JJJ and Moore won't get better playing five-on-five in practice when key players aren't even practicing.  JJJ and Moore won't get better playing in garbage time either.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

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    In Response to Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight:
    [QUOTE]Antiqueman, Doc needs to juggle his line ups and use younger players throughout every game this season.  If he doesn't we will be putting the younger ones out there later in the year when the vets are exhausted or injured. He seems to fight it and who knows if he will ever embrace it.
    Posted by concord27[/QUOTE]

    I agree with you about giving the rookies a chance.  Especially during this shortened season when we are playing so many back to back games.  Doc can't expect his starters to play extended minutes every game when they are playing two or even three nights in a row.  It makes sense to give the entire bench a chance to contribute. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from beavis. Show beavis's posts

    Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight

    Truth anoites "The Steamer"...
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

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    In Response to Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight:
    [QUOTE]A lot of this logic is putting the cart before the horse. Stiemsa is shooting, rebounding and blocking shots now because he already could do so. He showed that in the D-League and in practice/scrimmages.  Rookies don't magically develop skills by playing with the starters; just the opposite, they first develop skills that are at an NBA level, and then they get to play some meaningful minutes. 
    Posted by futbal[/QUOTE]

    It is not. It is about saving old legs and letting the team mix and gel. They can all play basketball. They all have skills. Now is the time to see what they can do. If you don't play them, you will be sorry come late season.
     
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    tIn Response to Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight:
    [QUOTE]Truth anoites "The Steamer"...
    Posted by beavis[/QUOTE]

    did you mean to write, anointes?
    sounds like something Joe Pesci might have said in My Cousin Vinnie, "Your honor, who anoites you to judge these two yutes?"
     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from futbal. Show futbal's posts

    Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight

    Petey, you wrote this: "We all know Stiemsma was not a cinch to even make the roster so you just never know until he gets on the court." If I understand what you are saying, then the other center who did not make the team, Michael Sweetney, should also get a chance to play an NBA game with KG and Paul so he can "hone" his game, because "you just never know until he gets on the court." Really Petey, you seem nice enough but you should try to use sturdier logic than that.
    Also, if you want JJJ to play, please specify how many minutes per game (roughly) and whose minutes he should get.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Petey62. Show Petey62's posts

    Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight

    futbal, come on, of course not.  You are using the wrong deductive logic.  If Sweetney was on the roster (exhibited skills required to play at the NBA level), then yes.

    Some players are obviously better than others (Stiemsma vs Sweetney).  Also a guy like Sweetney, from what I heard, came into camp NOT in the best shape so there are a number of reasons why Sweetney is not on the roster.

    However, had Sweetney come into camp in top shape and played his way onto the roster, with this compressed season, he should have been given playing time opportunities just like Stiemsma.  And given that time, especially playing with the Big 4, that would have allowed him to develop just a little more than he would have by playing garbage minutes.

    Each of the 14 Celtics players has the skills to play on this level or he would not be on the roster.  Therefore, in this compressed schedule of infrequent practices (evaluation time), integrating some of the young, talented players with the core will hasten their development process more so than it would if they were simply relegated to playing in garbage time.  We're seeing it with Stiemsma.

    futbal, I don't know how much time JJJ should get.  I do know he should be playing.  For example, JJJ should get playing time for KG or Bass (preferably when we're up by 15 points or so before halftime).  JJJ "should" get time on nights (which you know they will come) when KG is out resting.  He should backup Bass.

    As the season progresses, it will be very important to reduce KG's minutes.  KG cannot go thru the entire season with as many back-to-backs and back-to-back-to-backs playing upwards of 35 minutes per game.  He just cannot do that because that is what will break him down more than anything.   JJJ did not make defensive player of the year and have NO CONCEPT OF PLAYING DEFENSE.

    Just like Miami throwing the rookie Norris Cole in there, you'd be surprised what these young guys are capable of contributing if given an opportunity.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from henryfinkel. Show henryfinkel's posts

    Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight

    In the NBA, practice means NOTHING! (Petey)

    As Allen Iverson was fond of saying, "Practice, practice---we're talking about practice!"

     
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    As a follow-up, I have to concur with Petey. There are good practice players and good game day players. The really elite players excel at both, while others (like JO) game disappears when the lights go on. Stiemsa has proven he deserves more time, or even a starter's role (at least until we can get a better center like Cousins or McGhee). Moore should also be given a greater role in the backcourt (ahead of Bradley who is a lost cause). Depending on the play of Wilcox, JJ may even deserve a shot. The key, as Petey correctly pointed out, is to integrate the youngsters with some of the starters. That's where they'll learn and excel---not during garbage time when it's basically street ball.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from futbal. Show futbal's posts

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    Petey, Thanks for the thoughtful response. Hope JJJ gets to bring it soon. HFinkel, you know someone named Russell used to drink tea while the team practiced. In a few books I've read it said his coach, Arnold, thought it was a god idea. Mr. Russell wrote in one of his books the elite coaches treat the players differently but for the good of the team. I used to be of the mind that Doc stubbornly refused to play rookies and then I realized that in most cases the rookies weren't that good; Lester Hudson, Giddens, even Walker (now a Knicks reserve) and so on. Last, I think Avery is already an asset in that he plays great defense, so he is getting some playing time on that basis alone. The NBA for most rookies is a sobering transition because most have to morph from the best all around player on team after team to a roll player, who can bring NBA level assets in 3-6 minute bursts.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight

    Bring KG in off the bench. It will improve him and the team drastically.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

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    In Response to Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight : I think the Cs should try KG or Allen coming off the bench. It will allow a young player more experience, build confidence and strengthen the team overall. Having Garnett come off the bench also allows him to remain fresh and strengthen the second unit with Rondo. The big 3 can't continue to log long minutes this season. Have one come in off the bench. It keeps both units fresh and gives the youth a chance to shine.
    Posted by antiqueman1[/QUOTE]


    Sorry - that's not what you do if you want to win games!   Name me a team that starts brings two of its most experienced and productive players off the bench and wins.   Take Ray's points and Garnett's leadership and put them on the bench and you get deficits immediately.  We then fight to come from behind.  

    Evidence - look at the point spreads of those players when the substitute.  They are losing leads against the other team's backups.  Imagine what they'd do if they had to play their starters.  Start Moore against Wade and JJ against Bost and see what happens.   You'll end up putting Ray and KG in the game trying to dig out of bigger holes than they dug already.   

    Petey - just because you won some awards in college does not mean you are ready for the NBA and more importantly, it does not mean you are prepared to play in a system where defensive rotations and offensive plays are more complicated than most other NBA teams.  Unlike other teams, the C's don't win games because they are more athletic or faster.  They have to win by getting into the right position on offensive sets and because their defensive rotations produce stops.   Even at that, they struggle this year. 

    No way you start too many young guys as antiqueman suggests.   I'm sorry, but I like Doc's years of coaching and playing experience much more than this Board's zero years of NBA experience when it comes to selecting teams to play.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight : futbal, I see your point but I'll take JJJ for example.  He was a consensus All-American, Big Ten Defensive and Big Ten Player of the Year.  You don't earn that without having the skills to compete at the next level.  I understand what you say about practice/scrimmages but JJJ already has the skills to play in the NBA.  And with the few practices/scrimmages that will be available, it's tough to expect to see much there.  We all know Stiemsma was not a cinch to even make the roster so you just never know until he gets on the court.  It was reported that JON had one of the best camps of anybody (practices/scrimmages) but it did not translate in game action.  In the NBA, practice means NOTHING! You are right that they would not " magically develop skills by playing with the starters ".  He (JJJ) has the skills but playing with the starters and getting the in-game guidance from these guys will more easily "hone" those skills.  Playing with KG, Ray, Pierce and Rondo and the continuity they bring would benefit him and provide him to more easily display those skills.  In garbage time, there is no structure, continuity or flow.  If he were able to play with some of that, similar to what Stiemsma is getting an opportunity to do, it would greatly benefit his development. JJJ and Moore won't get better playing five-on-five in practice when key players aren't even practicing.  JJJ and Moore won't get better playing in garbage time either.
    Posted by Petey62[/QUOTE]

    Playing WITH the starters during part of the game is a good idea.  Starting in place of Ray and KG is a bad idea!  In fact, starting Steimsma and bringing KG and Ray off the bench means we'd have 3 young, inexperienced players  starting the game and NOT learning from the starters.

    That's what practice is for.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ortiz123. Show Ortiz123's posts

    Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight

    Bass is awsome on the offensive side, rebounding, but very week defender..
    watch how he gets lost and turned around sometimes...hopefully he will improve on that side of the ball...then he can start...
     
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    Name some of the so called bench players of late that are playing any major role with another team???? Have they developed with additional years of experience??
    Doc will let them play if they earn it, and will keep playing if they show  something when they are out ther...The Steeemer should get playing time, but i don't think is ready for prime time just yet....he will get into foul trouble as teams start to figure him out...maybe3 by mid season..JJ is nowhere near that level..not yet..Plus the Steemer played D league ball last season...so he is much better preprared for nba level..
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from futbal. Show futbal's posts

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    Lester Hudson is now in China. He is the only div 1 player ever to record a quadruple double.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Petey62. Show Petey62's posts

    Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight

    In Response to Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight : Sorry - that's not what you do if you want to win games!   Name me a team that starts brings two of its most experienced and productive players off the bench and wins.   Take Ray's points and Garnett's leadership and put them on the bench and you get deficits immediately.  We then fight to come from behind.   Evidence - look at the point spreads of those players when the substitute.  They are losing leads against the other team's backups.  Imagine what they'd do if they had to play their starters.  Start Moore against Wade and JJ against Bost and see what happens.   You'll end up putting Ray and KG in the game trying to dig out of bigger holes than they dug already.    Petey - just because you won some awards in college does not mean you are ready for the NBA and more importantly, it does not mean you are prepared to play in a system where defensive rotations and offensive plays are more complicated than most other NBA teams.  Unlike other teams, the C's don't win games because they are more athletic or faster.  They have to win by getting into the right position on offensive sets and because their defensive rotations produce stops.   Even at that, they struggle this year.  No way you start too many young guys as antiqueman suggests.   I'm sorry, but I like Doc's years of coaching and playing experience much more than this Board's zero years of NBA experience when it comes to selecting teams to play.
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]
    Celtsfan, I think you may be over-emphasizing the complexity of the game of basketball.  It's basketball and the Celtics don't run defensive rotations or offensive plays that are any more or less complicated than most other NBA teams.  Why would anyone think the Celtics defensive rotations and offensive sets are "more complicated" than, say, Chicago's or the Lakers?  I don't buy that notion.  Bottom line, it's basketball, something these guys have played their entire lives.  The awards, in fact, do show a propensity or high probability that this player is committed to the art of playing defense.  We're not talking rocket science here and our rotations are no more complex than the next team's.

    Also, you are correct that the Celtics don't win games because of their athleticism or speed.  However, that doesn't mean that another dimension would not be welcomed to give the Celtics some added energy.  Because we don't win that way now does not mean integrating a unit that ups the tempo "successfully" led by Rondo would not bring a different, much-needed, exciting style into the mix.   But most importantly, we don't win that way because we don't have the type of players to play that way.  If we did, I bet we'd do it every chance we got.

    I would bet that if JON were healthy and Wilcox did not injure his shoulder, we would have NO IDEA of Stiemsma's skills TODAY!  Not to even suggest he's a star but Stiemsma's play proves that he can contribute and should get minutes - not in garbage time.  Had JON and Wilcox not gotten injured, we would have no idea of his abilities.  And Doc would be telling Mike Gorman before every game that Stiemsma, JJJ and Moore were still not ready while they'd be sitting at the end of the bench.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Petey62. Show Petey62's posts

    Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight

    In Response to Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight : Playing WITH the starters during part of the game is a good idea.  Starting in place of Ray and KG is a bad idea!  In fact, starting Steimsma and bringing KG and Ray off the bench means we'd have 3 young, inexperienced players  starting the game and NOT learning from the starters. That's what practice is for.
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]
    My bad if I implied that Doc should start the rookies in place of Ray and KG.  I thought I posted that the young guys should be integrated with the starters at some point in the game.  I agree that we cannot start Moore, JJJ and Stiemsma.  If you thought I meant that, let me stand corrected.  I just think they should get some minutes with the starters.  I'd love to see Moore sub for Ray in the 2nd quarter with a 13 point lead.  I'd also love to see Moore go out with KG and have Ray and JJJ sub in in a similar circumstance.

    I just believe that with very few practices and a compressed schedule, these guys need to get "some" minutes to give the starters a breather.  Also, I don't want Doc to run Bass into the ground either.  With our injuries last season, we ran Baby into the ground too and he was no good come playoff time.  Doc says it every year.  It's really time to put that philosophy in action.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

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    Hi, Petey.  This is the post by Antiqueman1 that I was responding to when I mentioned they shouldn't start over KG and Ray.  I was mixing a response to this and a response to your post at the same time:

    I think the Cs should try KG or Allen coming off the bench. It will allow a young player more experience, build confidence and strengthen the team overall. Having Garnett come off the bench also allows him to remain fresh and strengthen the second unit with Rondo. The big 3 can't continue to log long minutes this season. Have one come in off the bench. It keeps both units fresh and gives the youth a chance to shine.

    As for the Celtic's complexity, I'm referring to the fact that teams like Miami and Bulls and Lakers often give the ball to their stars and let them go one on one.  We don't do that as much (couldn't survive that way).  Few of them run plays for a player like we do for Ray or the multiple action plays we run designed to get Ray, KG, and Paul open for jumpers.  My evidence is that when the bench is in, our offense looks lost and breaks down to desparation shots and broken plays.  That means the subs are not ready for the offense and don't understand it.

    Defense often has the same problem as the announcers even comment on. When to switch and when not to switch, when to hedge on a pick and roll yet get back to your man, etc are all staples of the Celtics D that we don't often see other teams do.  So, I think young players with no practice time struggle with all this and the Celtics more than other teams need these principles to win because they are not going to win with pure speed and athleticsm like the Bulls and Heat often do (and even the Knicks).  When we played the Knicks, they simply posted Carmelo every time.  There were NO PLAYS.  The C's used to do that with Pierce but no more.  We have to run plays or we're dead.

    As for Moore, we are in FULL agreement that he would really benefit from playing with the starters.  I advocate the same thing you do.  But, not for JJ.  JJ plays a more phyciscal position and appears not ready to be physical.  I watched him in the preseason and he simply isn't ready for it (timid).  He will benefit from practice and watching for about half the season.

    So, we're in agreement on Moore but not on JJ and I would not support the folks like Antique who would take it too far.  Bass and KG are not being run into the ground as far as I can see.  At 26 years old, if 28 minutes in a game runs Bass into the ground - we're in big trouble and he's not a strong player.  And....KG is only averaging 30 minutes.  I think that's pretty darn good.  Doc has held to his 5 on and 5 off rule for the most part.
     
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    In Response to Stiemsma to Start Tonight:
    [QUOTE]This should be interesting. http://www.celticslife.com/2012/01/jermaine-oneal-out-tonight-stiemsma-to.html
    Posted by Fiercest34[/QUOTE]

    Steimsma is a baller.  Not as intimidating as Perk but more agile; can really go after the block.  Much better offensive skills right now and will get better with PT.  He's a keeper, unlike Scal, who is getting paid and doing fine on the pine in Chicago.

    As Always,


     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight

    In Response to Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Stiemsma to Start Tonight : Sorry - that's not what you do if you want to win games!   Name me a team that starts brings two of its most experienced and productive players off the bench and wins.   Take Ray's points and Garnett's leadership and put them on the bench and you get deficits immediately.  We then fight to come from behind.   Evidence - look at the point spreads of those players when the substitute.  They are losing leads against the other team's backups.  Imagine what they'd do if they had to play their starters.  Start Moore against Wade and JJ against Bost and see what happens.   You'll end up putting Ray and KG in the game trying to dig out of bigger holes than they dug already.    Petey - just because you won some awards in college does not mean you are ready for the NBA and more importantly, it does not mean you are prepared to play in a system where defensive rotations and offensive plays are more complicated than most other NBA teams.  Unlike other teams, the C's don't win games because they are more athletic or faster.  They have to win by getting into the right position on offensive sets and because their defensive rotations produce stops.   Even at that, they struggle this year.  No way you start too many young guys as antiqueman suggests.   I'm sorry, but I like Doc's years of coaching and playing experience much more than this Board's zero years of NBA experience when it comes to selecting teams to play.
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]

    Hey you have your opinion. Hence we have a discussion board right. I don't want to see both coming off the bench. Misunderstood. One should come off the bench. If you keep playing these old legs tons of minutes, then when it matters most, they won't be able to respond. Just a fact. It is exactly what happened when LA took the Cs in game 7 after the Cs coughed up the lead. Doc relied on his starters tired old legs and they just could not hold the lead. Sorry, it is what it is.
     

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