Most of your points are not valid guys.

Ray is not playing 34 + minutes for Miami so why should it be a problem to do so in Boston?Actually playing less than Terry this year. It is not a fact that he had a problem coming of the bench.

@Fierce: If you repeat it it doesn't get right. I proofed with facts (several times) that we were a worse rebounding team with Terry instead of Ray.

And Terry is NOT (and never was) a better defender than Ray. He might be slightly better guarding smaller quicker guards but he simply cannot defend bigger guards. Include the height of Rondo and AB, a guard with the size of Ray who can defend guys like Evans, Bryant etc. would help us much more.

Again, how many games Terry won for us this season,  2? 3? Just look at Rays 4th quarter stats this season!

And about Terry's play off heroics? Do you have even seen him in the postseason besides the year the Mavs won a title? Have you seen the Mavs losing in the first round?

 

At the first of the year all we heard was how great Ray was,  and he was.  Incredible clip. We have seen the last few years that at the year progresses , Rays shooting does as well.  Some of us said that and it is coming true again this year.  Terry on the other hand started off lousy and his shot is getting better and better.  Now after this long they are nearly dead even with one still improving and one going the opposite direction.

Ray is one of the biggest crunch shooters ever.  So be it.  Terry is also pretty good just not as good as Ray.  I told everyone around here early in the season that seeing a lot of Mav games that Terry is a shot maker as well.  Some argued continuosly with me.  He is just starting to come around.  

The both have pros and cons,  with JT being younger.  So for the next couple seasons who would you rather have?  I will stick with JT.  He has also play some pretty good defense lately.

In response to Gasthoerer's comment:

It's not because of Terry that the Celts became a better rebounding team this season. The reason why the Celts improved in the rebounding department is because they got more athletic and younger.

The evidence is right in front of you. Last season and in 2010 and 2011, the Celts never averaged 40 rebounds per game.

You're nuts if you think I'm implying that Terry made the Celts a better rebounding team this season. 

It's simple, when JO and Ray were removed from the starting 5, the Celts automatically became younger and more athletic. JO, Ray, KG, Pierce, and Rondo is an old team. But if KG and Pierce are the only old players in the starting 5, then that's a young team with more athleticism.

It's called addition by subtraction.

Of course the Celts are not a better rebounding team with Terry in the starting 5. Terry is a 6th man!

With Lee and Bradley starting, that means more rebounds because of more athleticism and more hustle!

I not so sure I would say we are a better rebounding team.  We are still next to last in the league.  Maybe all the teams are better but the Heat.  When you are last in the league in something one year and move up to next to last the next year I wouldn't really say thats a improvement.

In response to OneOnOne's comment:

But you can't deny the fact that the Celts have improved in the rebounding department.

Last season 38.8 rpg. This season 40.03 rpg.

The difference is in the offensive rebounds per game. Last season only 7.71 off. rpg. This season 8.31 off. rpg.

Not really a big improvement but that's because the best rebounder, Sullinger, is not playing anymore.

I'm sure if Sully were still playing right now the Celts are going to be at 41 rebounds per game.

Terry plays defense, Ray avoids it. 

But today is going to be all about LeBron, not Ray.

In response to Ortiz123's comment:

reliance on the 3 point shot has hurt this Celtic's team inside game. for that reason i don't miss Ray that much. we are one of the league's worst teams at points in the paint and rebounding.hope we improve in these areas come playoff time.

In response to JG9000's comment:

Tonight we will need to shoot threes with a veagance.

In response to soups' comment:

 

Terry plays defense, Ray avoids it. 

But today is going to be all about LeBron, not Ray.

 

That is just plain wrong, period!

 

Terry was always one of the worst defenders in the league at his position (Therfore he never started). He slightly improved this year but is still bad (his lack of size plays an important role here).

Ray was always an mediocre defender and improved here especially team defense wise. Now he is a bad defender against quick guards (cause he is old and slow) but is still above average against tall guards like Byrant, Evans,... Just check the game notes at ESPN. It was mentioned several times at their homepage.

@fierce

Come on, didn't you say 35<37 at beginning of the year and how much Terry will help our rebounding?

And didn't I already proof that our rebounding totals (which is not even a great measure for capability of rebounding) was worse with Terry instead of Ray, improved (slightly) with Sully for Bass and improved even more without Rondo? Don't you think that the change of style has more to with the "improvement"? PP channeling his inner Rodman just after Ray and Sully went down, cause Ray was gone half a year before? Really? I know statistics is a difficult thing, but...really? You know that the amount of children per woman goes up when more storks living in the neighbourhood? Do you think the storks bring the children?

But: Like I said before Ray for Terry is not our biggest issue. I just get angry if people totally lose their objective view on things because their emotions come in their way.

How can you possibly compare 2 guys on 2 different teams.............Ray has a much easier job on the Heat.........LB requires a double team and sometimes Wade also.........as a whole the Heat have better shooters for their 5 starters which will allow Ray wide open looks............give Terry the same looks and I bet they are very close........

In response to damfuno's comment:

If you read the opening thread it has stats which point out Terry and Ray have almost identical stats even with the advantages you mention Ray has in Miami. 

Terry looked better than Ray last night.  In the fourth before we gave it up, Terry was shredding the Heat as he did the finals in 2011.  Why they went away from him was a huge mistake for the Celtics. You could see the fear in the Heat at moment when we went up by 12.  Ray looked very ordinary last night and his presence in a Heat uniform is still hard to take.  I can't forgive him. 

Ray didn't had a great game against us, he had his great game against Toronto the day before.

BUT: In the 4th he had 2 steals from Terry (who had 4 turnovers compared to 1 from Ray) and some boards (5 in total). Overall, Terry didn't had a nice game either

On top: Obviously Ray doesn't get his shot blocked at first break more often than our current guards.

In response to Gasthoerer's comment:

 

Ray didn't had a great game against us, he had his great game against Toronto the day before.

BUT: In the 4th he had 2 steals from Terry (who had 4 turnovers compared to 1 from Ray) and some boards (5 in total). Overall, Terry didn't had a nice game either

On top: Obviously Ray doesn't get his shot blocked at first break more often than our current guards.

 

Terry had a much better game than Ray.  Ray was a non-factor.  Keep loving Ray I am glad he is gone. He was worth every penny of the three million the Heat gave him.

 

In response to Gasthoerer's comment:

Why are you trying to spin the argument?

Of course 35 years old is better than 37 years old in the NBA!

At the beginning of the year I said Terry and Lee replacing Ray will make the Celts a better rebounding team because they got younger.

I never said Terry will make the Celts a better rebounding team.

Why is it hard for you to understand that getting younger made the Celts a better rebounding team?

I keep saying removing JO and Ray from the starting 5 makes the Celts a better rebounding team.

Again, I never said Terry is a better rebounder than Ray.

Terry is not supposed to start. The Celts got him to be the 6th man.

When Lee was out of sync early in the season, Doc had to start Terry.

With Terry, KG, and Pierce in the starting 5, that means 3 out of the 5 starters are old.

But when KG and Pierce are the only old players in the starting 5, that's 2 old players with 3 young players.

Seriously, if Terry starts then the Celts will not be good in the rebounding department because Terry is just as tall as Rondo. So don't spin the argument by saying that Terry will make the Celts a better rebounding team. That's just being ridiculous!

 

In response to Fierce34's comment:

I think Terry is as good he is much quicker.  Who cares about rebounding from these two non-rebounders . Terrry's game is far more complete. He can create shots.  If Doc had kept getting Terry the ball last night in the fourth you would have seen Terry get us the win like he did in 2011 in the finals.  It is a joke he had like six shots.

In response to concord27's comment:

Agree. 

That's why I said 35 years old is better than 37 years old.

It's just ridiculous that Gas is trying to spin the argument by saying that I said Terry is a better rebounder than Ray.

The numbers don't lie. For the last 3 seasons the Celts averaged 38.6, 38.8, and 38.8 rpg. This season the Celts are averaging 39.92 rpg. 

In response to Fierce34's comment:

Like I said before "Do you belive the stork brings the children?"

Your stat is totally meaningless as

1) there is no causality to Ray's absence (cause many other parameters changed)

2) the stat doesn't tell if this is a good rebounding team.

The highest significance (that doesn't mean high absolute) of your measure is at the beginning of the season (cause less parameters are changed). And here it is even the other way around our numbers went down. That is no proof that we are a better rebounding team with Ray but fur sure it doesn't support your hypothesis.

By the way: If you say that getting younger will make us a better reboudning team. And then claim that 35 < 37 this implies that Terry already will makes us younger and therfore better on the boards.

And to concord27: Terry tried to score more but lost the ball twice against Ray. Is this doc's fault or maybe Ray is not that lazy at the defensive end?

In response to Gasthoerer's comment:

Who said anything about the Celts being a good rebounding team?

What I said was the Celts became a better rebounding team when Ray and JO were gone. There's a big difference between becoming a better rebounding and a good rebounding team. And what I said was the Celts became a better rebounding team.

Also, I said, at the beginning of the season, Terry and Lee. I didn't say only Terry, I said Terry and Lee.

 

Last season the Celts had Bass and KG as starters.

This season KG and Bass are still starters.

The Celts' starting 4 and 5 are still the same from last season to this season. But the Celts are getting more rebounds this season compared to last season. Come on, from 38.8 to 39.92 is not an improvement?

The Celts are also getting more offensive rebounds this season compared to last season.

I'm having a hard time figuring out why you have to defend Ray Allen when clearly the Celts have become more athletic and younger. That's why the improvement in rebounds per game.

Bass is even getting less rebounds per game this season compared to last season.

 

The problem starts when you keep saying it's Terry vs. Ray. Terry didn't make the Celts a better rebounding team. But Ray Allen leaving made the Celts a better rebounding team for a number of reasons.

1. The young guards hustle more than Ray.

2. The young guards are more athletic than Ray.

3. The young guards box out.

4. The young guards go after offensive rebounds.

 

Too much love for Ray Allen is bad.

In response to Gasthoerer's comment:

I'm sorry; I'm reading this and honestly attempting to determine what you are trying to say.  Starting a sentence with "If" has to lead to some sort of conclusion in the same sentence. That's only one grammatical incongruity, and they occur with frightening regularity.  Slow down (time is not of the essence here) when writing and give yourself a chance to form your sentences to strengthen your argument, an argument that may in itself be valid; however, if you can't succinctly state your view, the writing fails and the meaning is lost. Using fewer sentences and putting in bulletpointed phrases (it's an option on the ribbon at the bottom) instead might make your posts infinitely more readable.  

I don't think anyone has said or believes Ray is "lazy", they're just saying that he's slow to react defensively. Whether that's rooted in age, ability, or commitment (unlikely, he a genuine professional) is irrelevant because the bottom line is simply that his defensive deficiencies have been very much in evidence in the last five years when he's been called upon to defend or be part of a rotational defensive scheme.  In truth, how many truly great shooters or scorers have also been great defenders?  I don't mean like the phony "all-defensive" teams that Jordan and Bryant have made, but real, lock-down defenders?  Historically, Wilt was one (scorer), Havlichek, Walt Frazier, JoJo showed it, and KG has always been there, but because defense is a total buy-in, most players can't summon the energy to go equally hard both ways. 

stats are just a small part of it.  Playoff time will be the real factor.  Other things you need to consider is: how much does each allow the stars to rest and how much does the game change when each is on the floor.

I will say that I have not thought of Ray as a Celtic since I read this thread. Now when I watch him play, he is a heat and that is it.    Perhaps it is you who misses Ray.