The Jeff Green conundrum.

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    The Jeff Green conundrum.

    Okay full disclosure. I am not thinking much of Jeff Green so far. Giving credit where it is due, he is hyper-athletic and smooth as silk. He has also been in the minus column of the Plus/Minus stat virtually every game he has played (with one or two exceptions) Leads disappear when Jeff Green is on the court. He has also looked pretty soft to me.

    So I did some research.

    "This season marked the third time in Green's four seasons where his offensive rating (points produced per 100 possessions) was higher than his defensive rating (points allowed per 100 possessions). Green produced 108 points per 100 possessions and allowed 110 points per 100 possessions in 49 games."

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/619903-boston-celtics-trade-recap-forward-jeff-green-is-not-much-of-a-difference-maker

    "The stunner: OKC gave up 107.7 points per 100 possessions when Green played, and only 97.7 when he didn’t. That 10-point differential is the largest I could find among main-rotation players, and it’s a number only touched upon in previous recent years by Eddy Curry and assorted Memphis players."

    http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2010/05/05/my-3rd-annual-nba-no-defense-team-starring-turkoglu-maggette-and-jeff-green/


    Now one possible explanation for Defense this terrible is that Jeff Green was playing out of position. Kevin Durant is a small Forward for the Thunder, so Green couldn't play that, leaving him to defend the Pau Gasol's of the world.

    In his scouting report on Green, Hollinger says Green, is a good defender when he defends the three and not the four. Which is great if true. 

    What I haven't been able to find are any stats on Green defending the three to verify this, and have no idea where to look. So I wonder does anyone have stats on him defending the lebrons and Carmelos of the world? Did anyone see him do so?

    I'm also curious how well he defends Lamar Odom. I'd except him to struggle against someone like Pau Gasol a 7 fooot forward/Center, but how does he do against someone like Odom who is a similar kind of player?

    I didn't watch the Thunder  Lakers games last year, or this year for that matter. So I'm curious if anyone else formed impressions.

    One positive note is that Ray Allen was a notoriously bad defender when he came to the Celtics and he shaped up. So Hopefully part of his growing process see Jeff Green improve like Ray did.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    I think at this point we have to accept he is no Tony Allen or Posey, but what he brings offensively should make up for it....He may not fair well defending 4's, but I have seen him post up everyone from 3, 4 and even 5 and score with ease...so that is def. something you cant find every day.  He is also too young to have a mindset of a Paul Pierce on defense...so at 24, are we expecting too much?  I think so....  Paul didnt start getting recognized for his defense until about 4 or 5 years ago...so im not dissapointed in him.  He has shown the ability to block shots when he wants to....I think its a matter of him not having the foundation in OKC to play that way...but you are right, he is one of the smoothest, most verstatile scorers i've seen in a while..and that will be needed, cuz we always struggle with scoring off the bench....lets not forget , our 1-4 were all in the all-star game, and the real defensive effort needs to come from them, cuz they are experienced vets in this system and have the lock down mentality when they need it.  Lets give the kid an offseason here b4 we expect him to know the defense in and out...
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    You both bring up good points but Green's offensive potential in the Celtics system seems to being very minor.  You have older players of hall of fame status rarely looking for him and BBD dominating the second unit.  I think he is a good player who is not a driving force out  there.  I think he will help us very little down the road and in the playoffs.  Remember the Thunder traded him because they had no place for him in the offense.  This is complicated even more by Shaq being out for the year.  
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneNation. Show OneNation's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    Stats... We don't need no stinkin stats....But seriously, Green gives the C's offensive options that I think only Paul can top. He posts and gives that little baby hook. He also has a outside game. His turnaround jumper is good also. He runs the floor as good if not better than anyone on the team. His assets outweigh his liabilities.
     
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    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

     "I think he will help us very little down the road and in the playoffs.  Remember the Thunder traded him because they had no place for him in the offense."


    I think he should help a lot.  IF only he gets the chance....Our big 3 are getting old....I wouldnt expect much from this next year if they make a deep run....we've seen them every year melt down quicker each year and K.G. looks the most tired...so either he humbles himself and comes off the bench or plays 20-25 minutes next year...but I think Green should have plenty of opptys if this team has a chance....but too much uncertainty now anway to make a judgment, cuz if Doc goes...who knows what happens...
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneNation. Show OneNation's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    I think the C's should make an effort to hold onto Green, based on how he has played so far. One mans opinion.
     
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    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE] "I think he will help us very little down the road and in the playoffs.  Remember the Thunder traded him because they had no place for him in the offense." I think he should help a lot.  IF only he gets the chance....Our big 3 are getting old....I wouldnt expect much from this next year if they make a deep run....we've seen them every year melt down quicker each year and K.G. looks the most tired...so either he humbles himself and comes off the bench or plays 20-25 minutes next year...but I think Green should have plenty of opptys if this team has a chance....but too much uncertainty now anway to make a judgment, cuz if Doc goes...who knows what happens...
    Posted by JayShizzle45[/QUOTE]


    Yeah, but if he is giving up more points than he is scoring as the stats idnicate how can he help? My hope is that stat is just related to the fact he playing out of position. 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneNation. Show OneNation's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    Heh... I think the team right now is giving up more points than they are scoring. Fire em all.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from jtkl. Show jtkl's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    Well, I am talking about the fact that, Green produced 108 points per 100 possessions on offense and allowed 110 points per 100 possessions in 49 games on defense with the thunder. 

    Meaning he has given up more point ALL YEAR than he has scored. 

    my questions were in regard to his natural position (small forward). Does anyone know if he does better there?  
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    Well im not big on stats...but my main indicator is , I dont see Green getting scored on every time down the floor.  I am also not reall concerned with his 100 possesions in OKC or whatever....those were track meets,and he will get better defensively.....Who do you know who came here and picked up the "D" right away....K.G. maybe...and he is a vet.  The guy is 24 and playing on a team that stresses help defense so he can be protected here.  So, like I said, unless I see guys coming down putting up 30 every night....those stats are meaningless here...

     
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    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    Also, can you go look up K.G.'s stats in regards to this thoery for this year..cuz he has given up some points to some absolute bums this year...but I wouldnt want to get rid of him...
     
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    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    Jeff Green is a guy whos good at a lot but not great at any one thing. These type of players dont make good bench players, they need a lot of floor time to contribute consistently.  A bench player should have one specialty, shooting, defense etc. So they can come right in and contribute. 

     Jeff Green is a tweener is size and in skill, too small to play the 4 and to slow to play the 3, hes too good to be on the bench and not quite good enough to start on a good playoff team. 
       
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from breaktime. Show breaktime's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    So far, more promise than proof
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from gman101019. Show gman101019's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    Jeff Green is a tweener is size and in skill too, hes to  small to play the 4 and to slow to play the 3, hes too good to be on the bench and not quite good enough to start on a good playoff team.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneNation. Show OneNation's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    I disagree in that Green can't start on a good playoff team. I think he could start over, say an Artest. Maybe it's a matter of opinion but I think Green is better then some give him credit for.
     
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    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    Jeff Green might be the fastest guy on the team besides Rondo.....how do you figure he is too slow to play the 3


    You guys see a losing team and want to start shytting on good players?  I dont get it.  How is he not good enough to start on a playoof team?  Maybe not this one,...but how many teams have 4 all-stars and 3 of them hall of famers...??

    Give the guy a break....for 24 y/o , he has skills beyond his years and has room to improve.  He is just now learning a defensive philosophy to adapt to. I think you guys are jumping the gun on this one...and if you guys thought you were getting a Shane Battier or a Kobe Bryant....sorry, he is neither a defensive specialist or a superstar....He is Jeff Green.  He is/should not be going anywhere, if the C's are smart they lock him up right away...
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneNation. Show OneNation's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE]Jeff Green might be the fastest guy on the team besides Rondo.....how do you figure he is too slow to play the 3 You guys see a losing team and want to start shytting on good players?  I dont get it.  How is not good enough to start on a playoof team?  Maybe not this one,...but how many teams have 4 all-stars and 3 of them hall of famers...?? Give the guy a break....for 24 y/o , he has skills beyond his years and has room to improve.  He is just now learning a defensive philosophy to adapt to. I think you guys are jumping the gun on this one...and if you guys thought you were getting a Shane Battier or a Kobe Bryant....sorry, he is neither a defensive specialist or a superstar....He is Jeff Green.  He is/should not be going anywhere, if the C's are smart they lock him up right away...
    Posted by JayShizzle45[/QUOTE]
    Got to give you an Amen on this post Shizz.
     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneNation. Show OneNation's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE]Green is a three and a good one. I would like to see Green play the three with Paul at the two. That would create some mismatches for the Cs.
    Posted by Kirk6[/QUOTE]
    I'd like to see that also.
     
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    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE]Well im not big on stats...but my main indicator is , I dont see Green getting scored on every time down the floor.  I am also not reall concerned with his 100 possesions in OKC or whatever....those were track meets,and he will get better defensively.....Who do you know who came here and picked up the "D" right away....K.G. maybe...and he is a vet.  The guy is 24 and playing on a team that stresses help defense so he can be protected here.  So, like I said, unless I see guys coming down putting up 30 every night....those stats are meaningless here...
    Posted by JayShizzle45[/QUOTE]

    Those stas concern me because they are defensively speaking, historically bad. 

    My hope as I previously said is that those stats are a bit of an aberation because he was playing out of position. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from jtkl. Show jtkl's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE]Also, can you go look up K.G.'s stats in regards to this thoery for this year..cuz he has given up some points to some absolute bums this year...but I wouldnt want to get rid of him...
    Posted by JayShizzle45[/QUOTE]

    KG is a defensive player of the year canidate. He has a defernsive rating of 94. That is top in the league and better than Dwight Howard. I wouldn't want to get rid of him either. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneNation. Show OneNation's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum. : KG is a defensive player of the year canidate. He has a defernsive rating of 94. That is top in the league and better than Dwight Howard. I wouldn't want to get rid of him either. 
    Posted by jtkl[/QUOTE]
    I hate to ask, I really do, but can you explain what the defensive rating is , how it is arrived at. If it has to do with stats then just say it does and I will disregard it.
     
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    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE]Jeff Green might be the fastest guy on the team besides Rondo.....how do you figure he is too slow to play the 3 You guys see a losing team and want to start shytting on good players?  I dont get it.  How is he not good enough to start on a playoof team?  Maybe not this one,...but how many teams have 4 all-stars and 3 of them hall of famers...?? Give the guy a break....for 24 y/o , he has skills beyond his years and has room to improve.  He is just now learning a defensive philosophy to adapt to. I think you guys are jumping the gun on this one...and if you guys thought you were getting a Shane Battier or a Kobe Bryant....sorry, he is neither a defensive specialist or a superstar....He is Jeff Green.  He is/should not be going anywhere, if the C's are smart they lock him up right away...
    Posted by JayShizzle45[/QUOTE]

    I wouldn't go so far to say I am shytting on Jeff Green. I am stating facts and asking questions. The facts are, by the numbers,  Green was giving historically bad defensive performeces for the Thunder. Some of the worst in the last ten years, that is a fact, by the numbers.  

    Now my question is whether those numbers are an aberation because he was possibly playing out of position. 

    Because we DID get him to be a Shane Battier. We were told we were getting him so Pierce had help to guard Lebron and Carmelo. That's the rationale for the perk trade. 

    So I asked a question, has anyone seen him guarding the threes of the league. Did anyone see how he fared there? Because against 4s he fared badly. I am hoping it is completley different with threes. 



     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from jtkl. Show jtkl's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum. : I hate to ask, I really do, but can you explain what the defensive rating is , how it is arrived at. If it has to do with stats then just say it does and I will disregard it.
    Posted by OneNation[/QUOTE]

    Defensive Rating is how many points your opponant would score if you gave them 100 possessions. So the lower the number, the better the defense. Kevin Garnett is currently leading the league with a 94.3, while Dwight is positioned in second with a 94.5.
     
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    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum. : Defensive Rating is how many points your opponant would score if you gave them 100 possessions. So the lower the number, the better the defense. Kevin Garnett is currently leading the league with a  94.3 , while Dwight is positioned in second with a  94.5 .
    Posted by jtkl[/QUOTE]
    That works if you guard the same dude at all times during the game, or don't play zone which teams do alot. I don't need stats to tell me that Howard or KG are great defensive players. I'm old but not blind yet.
     

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