The Jeff Green conundrum.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jtkl. Show jtkl's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum. : That works if you guard the same dude at all times during the game, or don't play zone which teams do alot. I don't need stats to tell me that Howard or KG are great defensive players. I'm old but not blind yet.
    Posted by OneNation[/QUOTE]


    Well, good for you. you can rest easy that your Eyes and the STATS confirm KG is a great defender. However since I was asked by shizzle to try my numbers theory on KG the post wasn't really for you was it? 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from gman101019. Show gman101019's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    Jay Shizzle
    Green is fast as far as running the floor to getting an ez dunk, but his lateral quickness is lacking  on d, he gets beat consistently off the dribble. Or he simply  doesnt want to put the same effort on d that he puts in on trying to get a fastbreak dunk, which in either case is a bad approach and lack of commitment for the  defense end that has followed him through out his career.

    You think hed start for a playoff team at the 3?
    All these players are starting 3s and prove that jeff green would be on the bench on all these PLAYOFF teams in the east. Nuff said

    BUlls deng
    heat james
    knicks carmelo
    phill iguodala
    pacers granger
    hawks joe johnson

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneNation. Show OneNation's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum. : Well, good for you. you can rest easy that your Eyes and the STATS confirm KG is a great defender. However since I was asked by shizzle to try my numbers theory on KG the post wasn't really for you was it? 
    Posted by jtkl[/QUOTE]
    Then you should have ignored my question.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from jtkl. Show jtkl's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum. : Then you should have ignored my question.
    Posted by OneNation[/QUOTE]

    Perhaps you should have just stayed out of the conversation if you had nothing to contribute to it. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneNation. Show OneNation's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum. : Perhaps you should have just stayed out of the conversation if you had nothing to contribute to it. 
    Posted by jtkl[/QUOTE]
    I contributed to your irrevelant stat facts by noting that you can't control the game enough to make them valid. Oh, you can also throw team defense in the mix.
     
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    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    OKC never heard of defense until they got Perk.  Jeff Green is Tony Allen with a better offensive repertoire.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from jtkl. Show jtkl's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum. : I contributed to your irrevelant stat facts by noting that you can't control the game enough to make them valid. Oh, you can also throw team defense in the mix.
    Posted by OneNation[/QUOTE]

    I'll happily throw team defense into the mix. 

    When KG is on the court. Boston's defense is a 98.5. Without him. 105.6. Defensively that is how important the big ticket is. 

    In the case of jeff Green, with the Thunder, put him on the court and OKC gave up 107.7 points per 100 possessions take him off the court and the number drops to 97.7.

    See the Difference? 


    btw, your stats argumetn is flawed because it would make every single stat irrelevant. Scoring, rebounding assits. everyhting. Stats aren't the whole story, but pretending they are nothing is just plain silly. 




     
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    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE]OKC never heard of defense until they got Perk.  Jeff Green is Tony Allen with a better offensive repertoire.
    Posted by shines01[/QUOTE]


    Before Perk the Thunder's defense was 10 points better every time they took Jeff green off the court. 

    Btw, this is not to totally rip Green. if you read my first post you will note that I specualte the cause is related to him having played out of position. That's why I am asking has anyone seen him play his natural position on defense? I'm trying to figure out histoprically, if he plays much better defense on the wing because right now I'm not seeing it. 

    Finally even if he hasn't played good defense on the wing,  I  am hoping we get the Ray allen effect. Ray was a bad defender before coming to Boston. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneNation. Show OneNation's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum. : I'll happily throw team defense into the mix.  When KG is on the court. Boston's defens e is a 98.5. Without him. 105.6. Defensively that is how important the big ticket is.  In the case of jeff Green, with the Thunder, put him on the court and  OKC gave up 107.7 points per 100 possessions take him off the court and the number drops to 97.7. See the Difference?  btw, your stats argumetn is flawed because it would make every single stat irrelevant. Scoring, rebounding assits. everyhting. Stats aren't the whole story, but pretending they are nothing is just plain silly. 
    Posted by jtkl[/QUOTE]
    I will conceide that some stats matter. I just don't put as much stock in them as others. Especially on individual defense. It was good debating you on the subject.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jtkl. Show jtkl's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum. : I will conceide that some stats matter. I just don't put as much stock in them as others. Especially on individual defense. It was good debating you on the subject.
    Posted by OneNation[/QUOTE]


    You as well.  Go Celts! 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from lakers1257. Show lakers1257's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    Jeff Green's game reminds me of George Lynch.  Anybody else see the similarities?  Some people say his play is very smooth.  To me it looks like he's playing in slow motion.
     
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    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    Green may need to tough up a bit and he may be a project, but he is a good project and the best hope we have of replacing Paul in the future if we can keep him.  He has the offensive moves and the athletic abitility to make the all star team some day.  He will be tested this year and should be a plus for our team, we will see if he will buckel down and defend and rebound, he already has the offensive moves and shots.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    I never heard Ainge say he made to trade to help Paul with defending guys...I was told we needed a backup period. As far as his defense, he is not a veteran.  He is not gonna have all the tricks yet, but I will ask this...does Carmello play better defense than this guy, and if he doesnt, does that mean you wouldnt want Melo on your team?  We got guys that have been here giving lanes to the hoop, so I guess I just dont see Green as the main culprit or liability on defense, and I feel he is being judged based off a handful of games which isnt fair to him. I just think for a role player thrown away as people say, he is pretty good.  Is he perfect?  of course not...but I think the matchup problems he can create are endless and its up to Doc to use him right, which he is still learning...
     
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    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    Is green the only bench player?   Dont you have to include everyone or does Jeff come in and guard everyone?   I just dont see how you can say when Green gets in, they give up 10 more points....it just doesnt make any sense...
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from startrightnow. Show startrightnow's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    Ive been watching Green since h.s/college and feel i have a pretty decent grasp for him as a player. But let me just answer your question ... do the stats lie in terms of him and who he was defending , 4's as opposed to 3's. YES the stats lie , of coarse they do. If you watch basketball youll know that. Sorry not trying to be a jerk but great you know a few stats and it seems your whole arguement is based off of 1 or 2 stats. Green can absolutely defend his natural position at the 3 , is he lock down? No , not at all , but the C's didnt want to pay Perk 10+ a year/5+yrs and this group has always liked Green. And by group i mean D.A. lol. Is he the answer , no. Can he help absolutely yes. This team has always need help scoring off the bench in the 4th qr. We have always needed/wanted a back up for PP , Green is good back up. Greens not as good of a one on one defender as say Posey was for us a few years back. I think this team is counting on him to add some extra length on the court in terms of our team D. Listen hes a very good back up that can give you 14-15ppg a night and play some solid D. Clearly this guy needs the C's a lot more than we need him , even right now.
     
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    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    He needs more minutes
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE]Jay Shizzle Green is fast as far as running the floor to getting an ez dunk, but his lateral quickness is lacking  on d, he gets beat consistently off the dribble. Or he simply  doesnt want to put the same effort on d that he puts in on trying to get a fastbreak dunk, which in either case is a bad approach and lack of commitment for the  defense end that has followed him through out his career. You think hed start for a playoff team at the 3? All these players are starting 3s and prove that jeff green would be on the bench on all these PLAYOFF teams in the east. Nuff said BUlls deng heat james knicks carmelo phill iguodala pacers granger hawks joe johnson
    Posted by gman101019[/QUOTE]

    He would start at PF for the Pacers, Heat and Knicks, he'd start at SF for the Hawks w/ JJ at the 2 (Marvin williams is their 3) he'd start at SF for the 76ers w/ Iggy moving to SG.

    Bulls (b/c neither Green or Deng could move to SG) and Celts, 2 of the 5 best teams in the game, are the only East team Green would not start for
     
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    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE]Okay full disclosure. I am not thinking much of Jeff Green so far. Giving credit where it is due, he is hyper-athletic and smooth as silk. He has also been in the minus column of the Plus/Minus stat virtually every game he has played (with one or two exceptions) Leads disappear when Jeff Green is on the court. He has also looked pretty soft to me. So I did some research. "This season marked the third time in Green's four seasons where his offensive rating (points produced per 100 possessions) was higher than his defensive rating (points allowed per 100 possessions). Green produced 108 points per 100 possessions and allowed 110 points per 100 possessions in 49 games." http://bleacherreport.com/articles/619903-boston-celtics-trade-recap-forward-jeff-green-is-not-much-of-a-difference-maker "The stunner: OKC gave up 107.7 points per 100 possessions when Green played, and only 97.7 when he didn’t. That 10-point differential is the largest I could find among main-rotation players, and it’s a number only touched upon in previous recent years by Eddy Curry and assorted Memphis players." http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2010/05/05/my-3rd-annual-nba-no-defense-team-starring-turkoglu-maggette-and-jeff-green/ Now one possible explanation for Defense this terrible is that Jeff Green was playing out of position. Kevin Durant is a small Forward for the Thunder, so Green couldn't play that, leaving him to defend the Pau Gasol's of the world. In his scouting report on Green, Hollinger says Green, is a good defender when he defends the three and not the four. Which is great if true.  What I haven't been able to find are any stats on Green defending the three to verify this, and have no idea where to look. So I wonder does anyone have stats on him defending the lebrons and Carmelos of the world? Did anyone see him do so? I'm also curious how well he defends Lamar Odom. I'd except him to struggle against someone like Pau Gasol a 7 fooot forward/Center, but how does he do against someone like Odom who is a similar kind of player? I didn't watch the Thunder  Lakers games last year, or this year for that matter. So I'm curious if anyone else formed impressions. One positive note is that Ray Allen was a notoriously bad defender when he came to the Celtics and he shaped up. So Hopefully part of his growing process see Jeff Green improve like Ray did.
    Posted by jtkl[/QUOTE]I hear what you`re saying ,but he has a big speed advantage offensively when playing the 4.I just think he`s a work in progress .Needs to do a better job of cutting off the baseline,though.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from teh-n00b. Show teh-n00b's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    In Response to The Jeff Green conundrum.:
    [QUOTE]Okay full disclosure. I am not thinking much of Jeff Green so far. Giving credit where it is due, he is hyper-athletic and smooth as silk. He has also been in the minus column of the Plus/Minus stat virtually every game he has played (with one or two exceptions) Leads disappear when Jeff Green is on the court. He has also looked pretty soft to me. So I did some research. "This season marked the third time in Green's four seasons where his offensive rating (points produced per 100 possessions) was higher than his defensive rating (points allowed per 100 possessions). Green produced 108 points per 100 possessions and allowed 110 points per 100 possessions in 49 games." http://bleacherreport.com/articles/619903-boston-celtics-trade-recap-forward-jeff-green-is-not-much-of-a-difference-maker "The stunner: OKC gave up 107.7 points per 100 possessions when Green played, and only 97.7 when he didn’t. That 10-point differential is the largest I could find among main-rotation players, and it’s a number only touched upon in previous recent years by Eddy Curry and assorted Memphis players." http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2010/05/05/my-3rd-annual-nba-no-defense-team-starring-turkoglu-maggette-and-jeff-green/ Now one possible explanation for Defense this terrible is that Jeff Green was playing out of position. Kevin Durant is a small Forward for the Thunder, so Green couldn't play that, leaving him to defend the Pau Gasol's of the world. In his scouting report on Green, Hollinger says Green, is a good defender when he defends the three and not the four. Which is great if true.  What I haven't been able to find are any stats on Green defending the three to verify this, and have no idea where to look. So I wonder does anyone have stats on him defending the lebrons and Carmelos of the world? Did anyone see him do so? I'm also curious how well he defends Lamar Odom. I'd except him to struggle against someone like Pau Gasol a 7 fooot forward/Center, but how does he do against someone like Odom who is a similar kind of player? I didn't watch the Thunder  Lakers games last year, or this year for that matter. So I'm curious if anyone else formed impressions. One positive note is that Ray Allen was a notoriously bad defender when he came to the Celtics and he shaped up. So Hopefully part of his growing process see Jeff Green improve like Ray did.
    Posted by jtkl[/QUOTE]


    scroll down to "production by position"

    seems to me that offensively he plays better at the 4, but defensively better at the 3

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from PACelt. Show PACelt's posts

    Re: The Jeff Green conundrum.

    Did we need a back up for PP?  Did we want one with length?  Did we want one on the rise in their career?

    So we got the guy that could back up PP and also play at the 4?

    So what's the problem?

    You start by looking at +/-, which is an indicator of how well the team's doing and nothing else.  I've seen players on this team play poorly and have very high plusses due to the play of their teammates.

    Figures never lie, but liars oft times figure.

    PA
     
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