There is only one "G O A T"

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: There is only one "G O A T"

    Russ played against Wilt, Thurmond, Bellamy, Beaty, Reed, Hayes, Embry (now he was 6-7 but also around 250 lbs) and Unseld.....um, sorry pal....they were all taller or larger bodies (Beaty may have been close to Russ in size)....my point is that Russ was a multiple all star and MVP while he battled them all through the '60's...and FGP was different back then....when Russ came into the league he was top 5 for several years...one reason was the dunk wasn't a regular weapon in the arsenal...want proof? .....two of the greatest scorers (and Hall of Famers) were Elgin Baylor and Jerry West....their FGP's? ........431 and .474......get it now?
     
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    Re: There is only one "G O A T"

    Field goal percentage was different back then? How's that? Was math different? I wasn't aware. You just listed 2 perimeter players from the same era that shot as good or better than a center, Russell.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: There is only one "G O A T"

    listen closely....field goal PERCENTAGES were much lower back then.....and centers weren't usually in the top 10....until the dunk became all the rage....Baylor (along with Russ, my all time favorite) was the guy who invented playing above the rim....he scored 71 in a regular season game and 63 against the Celts in the play-offs....unbelievable moves and just a wonderful player...but although he could dunk (check YouTube where he skies over Russ and slams) he rarely did...hence the career .431 percentage.......still one of the greatest offensive machines in NBA history....God, I loved that guy!
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ItsNot1966anymor. Show ItsNot1966anymor's posts

    Re: There is only one "G O A T"

    I think his career FG% was 44%?  True, they were all lower back then but the average for the highest FG% in his 13 years was .527, so on average he was 20% lower than the best.  Not horrible, but not exactly The Big Fundamental either.
     
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    Re: There is only one "G O A T"


     Gentlemen

    I will post a few charts over the next day or two which will show the relative shooting abilities of the 50's-60's vs later years. This 1st chart is for Russell's first year in the nba-1956-57.  It list guards that were 6'4" or shorter that averaged at least 24 minutes playing time per game. The FG% column is the 3rd column from the right. I used players that were primarily guards to eliminate  dunking as a factor. Tomorrow I will post the shooting Percentages for the years 1961, 1966 and 1980. This will give you a chance to see the evolution of field goal shooting over the years. Notice that Sharman's .416 is tops.
     http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1957&year_max=1957&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=63&height_max=76&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=1200&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=mp

    Seems
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from MajicMVP. Show MajicMVP's posts

    Re: There is only one "G O A T"

    In Response to Re: There is only one "G O A T":
    In Response to Re: There is only one "G O A T" : So, MOST of the Yankees 26 titles are "tainted" because it was so much easier to win in the 20's - 50's? That would be okay with me....:)... but I don't discount anything or anyone.
    Posted by Red-16Russ-11


    If you insist, yep.

    Couldn't care less about the Yankees. But when you want to use other sport to argue, quick, tell me which team won the most NFL championships, and how many. Afterall, it's the #1 sport in America RIGHT NOW!!!

    Don't cheat. Don't look at the reference....

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from MajicMVP. Show MajicMVP's posts

    Re: There is only one "G O A T"


    ESPN Athlete of the Century:
    1. Jordan, 13. Wilt, 17. Magic, 18 Russell

    http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/athletes.html

    AP basketball player of the century:

    1. Jordan, 2. Oscar, 3. Wilt, 4. Russell, 5. Magic

    http://lubbockonline.com/stories/121199/pro_1211990096.shtml

    SLAM Magazine Top 50:

    1. Jordan, 2. Wilt, 3. Russell

    http://www.slamonline.com/online/the-magazine/features/2009/06/the-new-top-50/


    Sport Magazine's Greatest Athlete of the Century

    1. Jordan

    So no matter where you look, there is only one GOAT. It ain't Russell, and it ain't Wilt neither. It's funny that when Duke wants to make a case for GOAT, he never compare Russell to the basketball #1 among various polls, but to Wilt, who's NOT anyone's #1...

    Now it begs the question. Why would Jordan be ranked #1 albeit with only 6 rings? Simple, because the rings in different eras are not weighted equal...




     
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    Re: There is only one "G O A T"

    In Response to Re: There is only one "G O A T":
    ESPN Athlete of the Century: 1. Jordan, 13. Wilt, 17. Magic, 18 Russell http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/athletes.html AP basketball player of the century: 1. Jordan, 2. Oscar, 3. Wilt, 4. Russell, 5. Magic http://lubbockonline.com/stories/121199/pro_1211990096.shtml SLAM Magazine Top 50: 1. Jordan, 2. Wilt, 3. Russell http://www.slamonline.com/online/the-magazine/features/2009/06/the-new-top-50/ Sport Magazine's Greatest Athlete of the Century 1. Jordan So no matter where you look, there is only one GOAT. It ain't Russell, and it ain't Wilt neither. It's funny that when Duke wants to make a case for GOAT, he never compare Russell to the basketball #1 among various polls, but to Wilt, who's NOT anyone's #1... Now it begs the question. Why would Jordan be ranked #1 albeit with only 6 rings? Simple, because the rings in different eras are not weighted equal...
    Posted by MajicMVP


    Wow if this was a heavyweight title fight you would have knocked the trolls out in the first round!

    All hail Majic!
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from RUWorthy. Show RUWorthy's posts

    Re: There is only one "G O A T"

    Kareem doesn't agree.


    Dear Scottie,

    I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.

    Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world — no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

    In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won eight consecutive NBA Championships. Bill’s rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was eight per game (1989). But we will never know exactly how many shots Bill Russell blocked because again, they never kept that statistic while he played. However, if you ask anybody that played against Russell, they will just roll their eyes and say he blocked all the shots he wanted to block in the crucial moments of a game.

    Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, LeBron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore.

    Affectionately,
    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
    NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer

     

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Karllost. Show Karllost's posts

    Re: There is only one "G O A T"

    In Response to Re: There is only one "G O A T":
    Kareem doesn't agree. Dear Scottie, I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams. Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world — no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt. In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won eight consecutive NBA Championships. Bill’s rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was eight per game (1989). But we will never know exactly how many shots Bill Russell blocked because again, they never kept that statistic while he played. However, if you ask anybody that played against Russell, they will just roll their eyes and say he blocked all the shots he wanted to block in the crucial moments of a game. Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, LeBron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore. Affectionately, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer    
    Posted by RUWorthy


    Reasonable letter from kareem...

    I have to agree to an extent... how can anyone cliam being more "dominant" than Wilt? It's not even a contest.  Wilt was also the most electric player I can remember in the NBA. Whenever he came into an arena, it was like the Beatles just arrived. Everyone was against the Giant..... but he was one heck of an attraction.

    I met Wilt on a business transaction. He was trying to develop his restaurant into a chain. He wore a suit that I never seen fit someone so perfectly...this was almost 20 years ago and it still sticks in my mind. He had a red liner inside his jacket and I couldnt find a wrinkle or crease on his shirt, it fit like it was skin.  His project never panned out.... he tried to take it public, it began trading but was promptly cancelled.

    I dont know if "dominant" = "greatest"...still trying to figure that one out. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: There is only one "G O A T"

    I agree, there was no one quite like Wilt.......
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: There is only one "G O A T"


      Here are the FG% FOR THE YEAR 1961-62.
     http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1962&year_max=1962&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=63&height_max=76&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=1344&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=mp

    Seems
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: There is only one "G O A T"


     Here are the FG% for the year 1966-67

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1967&year_max=1967&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=63&height_max=76&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=1368&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=

    Seems
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: There is only one "G O A T"


     The FG% for the year 1980-81

     http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1967&year_max=1967&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=63&height_max=76&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=1368&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=mp

    Seems
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from MajicMVP. Show MajicMVP's posts

    Re: There is only one "G O A T"

    In Response to Re: There is only one "G O A T":
    Kareem doesn't agree. Dear Scottie, I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams. Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world — no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt. In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won eight consecutive NBA Championships. Bill’s rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was eight per game (1989). But we will never know exactly how many shots Bill Russell blocked because again, they never kept that statistic while he played. However, if you ask anybody that played against Russell, they will just roll their eyes and say he blocked all the shots he wanted to block in the crucial moments of a game. Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, LeBron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore. Affectionately, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer    
    Posted by RUWorthy


    ESPN disagreed with Kareem's opinion, as did AP, as did SLAM, as did Sport magazine ...
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: There is only one "G O A T"


    Refer to the charts and note.

    1956-57- 21 players 6'4" or shorter that averaged at least 24 minutes per game.      Out of 21 players, 0 shot 45% or better. That equals 0%
    1961-62- Out of 22 players,3 shot 45% or better, That equals 14%
    1966-67- out of 24 players,9 shot 45% or better, That equals 38%
    1980-81- out of 53 players,45 shot 45% or better,That equals 85%
      ( When player numbers 42, 43, 44, 45 have their  3 point shooting numbers removed they become 45% shooters).

      The numbers speak for themself.

    Seems
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from RUWorthy. Show RUWorthy's posts

    Re: There is only one "G O A T"

    In Response to Re: There is only one "G O A T":
    In Response to Re: There is only one "G O A T" : ESPN disagreed with Kareem's opinion, as did AP, as did SLAM, as did Sport magazine ...
    Posted by MajicMVP


    If I remember rightly. Everyone disagreed with Galileo as well. Just because a majority of 'magazines' say one thing. Doesn't make it true or correct.

    I'd like to know just how much research went into their decision making. Observing rule changes, the size of the league and superstar calls went into making Jordans career what it was. Not saying that Jordan wasn't one of the great players. But I'd choose a healthy Magic or Bird over him anyday if I was building a team.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: There is only one "G O A T"

    In Response to Re: There is only one "G O A T":
    Kareem doesn't agree. Dear Scottie, I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams. Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world — no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt. In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won eight consecutive NBA Championships. Bill’s rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was eight per game (1989). But we will never know exactly how many shots Bill Russell blocked because again, they never kept that statistic while he played. However, if you ask anybody that played against Russell, they will just roll their eyes and say he blocked all the shots he wanted to block in the crucial moments of a game. Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, LeBron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore. Affectionately, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer    
    Posted by RUWorthy


    RUWorthy

    Here's a scoring comparison between Wilt and Jordan based on points per shots taken, which is the fairest way to compare them.
    1961-62 Wilts best average--50.4
     total points scored- 4029, divided by total shots taken,4522 = o.89 which amounts to 89 points per 100 shots.
     For Jordan in 1986-87 it is 3041 points scored divided by 3251 shots taken = 0.94 which amounts to 94 points per 100 shots.

       Height as a factor!  Based on only those players that were 6'9" or taller and averaged at least 15 points per game while playing at least 24 minutes per game  the results are that Wilt faced only 4 players who were 6'9" and  they were all 6'9".

      Playing in 1986-87, his height competition would have been as follows.
      7'2"= 1, 7'1"= 1, 7'0"= 6, 6'11"= 3, 6'10"= 6, 6'9"= 10, for a total of 27 players that were 6'9" or taller. His numbers in 1962-62 were surely enhanced as he competed with the Lilliputians.

    Seems
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Laker-Nation32. Show Laker-Nation32's posts

    Re: There is only one "G O A T"

    In Response to Re: There is only one "G O A T":
    In Response to Re: There is only one "G O A T" : If I remember rightly. Everyone disagreed with Galileo as well. Just because a majority of 'magazines' say one thing. Doesn't make it true or correct. I'd like to know just how much research went into their decision making. Observing rule changes, the size of the league and superstar calls went into making Jordans career what it was. Not saying that Jordan wasn't one of the great players. But I'd choose a healthy Magic or Bird over him anyday if I was building a team.
    Posted by RUWorthy


    Surely you jest, wouldn't you start with Sharelle McMahon??!!
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from MajicMVP. Show MajicMVP's posts

    Re: There is only one

    In Response to Re: There is only one "G O A T":
    In Response to Re: There is only one "G O A T" : If I remember rightly. Everyone disagreed with Galileo as well. Just because a majority of 'magazines' say one thing. Doesn't make it true or correct.

    Just because a minority of fans say one thing doesn't make it true or correct either. So what now?

    As far as opinion is concerned, there is no true opinion or correct opinion. There is only majority or minority opinion. When your opinion is not shared by the majority, it's not the end of the world.

    Do you think "Perkins is ugly" a true or correct opinion? How is it proven right or wrong?

    You and Kareem are just giving an opinion that a lot of other people don't share, so is Duke. It's as simple as that.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Red-16Russ-11. Show Red-16Russ-11's posts

    Re: There is only one "G O A T"

    This whole thread is an insult to the truly great ball players.  The GREAT ones transcend time.  Magic, Wilt, Russ, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams...let's not insult them any further.
    Babe Ruth played in a dead ball era, no night games, no relief pitchers, no sliders, and only 8 teams in the league.  MAYBE if he played today they'd only let him pitch (lefties being such a rare commodity).
    Magic - MAYBE if he played in the 60's, being 6'9" - MAYBE - his coach would want him to play PF.  Would he still be great at that spot? Who knows?  There are special players that come along - that transcend time.
    Ruth, Williams, Kareem, Magic, Wilt. Unitas, Brown and Russ - (let's not forget some guy named Orr)................great now, great when they played.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Karllost. Show Karllost's posts

    Re: There is only one "G O A T"

    In Response to Re: There is only one "G O A T":
    This whole thread is an insult to the truly great ball players.  The GREAT ones transcend time.  Magic, Wilt, Russ, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams...let's not insult them any further. Babe Ruth played in a dead ball era, no night games, no relief pitchers, no sliders, and only 8 teams in the league.  MAYBE if he played today they'd only let him pitch (lefties being such a rare commodity). Magic - MAYBE if he played in the 60's, being 6'9" - MAYBE - his coach would want him to play PF.  Would he still be great at that spot? Who knows?  There are special players that come along - that transcend time. Ruth, Williams, Kareem, Magic, Wilt. Unitas, Brown and Russ - (let's not forget some guy named Orr)................great now, great when they played.
    Posted by Red-16Russ-11


    Very true and well said.

    I think people get hung up too much on vital stats...like Shaq is so much bigger, faster, stronger...he'd have dominated so and so. He can bench 540, Russell only benched 320  etc etc etc...

    You always hear how modern day players are bigger, stronger & faster...therefore better.  Been hearing that one  for decades and you'll be hearing it as you get older too about this era.

    Here's something to think about. I'd be willing to guess that most of the NBA forwards in the 1980's were faster, quicker, stronger, could jump higher areact faster than Larry Bird. I bet most of  forwards today are too.. Therefore, does that mean they must be better than Larry?

    I bet most of the forwards of today are faster, taller, quicker and maybe stronger than Charles Barkley ...

    The height, weight, 100 yd sprint time, combine workout, bench press numbers dont make you a better basketball player... it may help you out in a decathalon though
     
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