There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtics1986. Show Celtics1986's posts

    There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

    We are looking for a physical defense first center that Doc will trust...didn't we trade him away for an offense first forward that Doc does not trust?

    And I am by no means in love with Perkins game at all...but the irony is somewhat thick for Ainge. I have to believe if he could sign Perkins but under the alias Kendrick Johnson, he would do it in a heartbeat.

    I look at the veteran centers they are looking at and it makes you root for a long lockout! Yikes.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

    ".didn't we trade him away for an offense first forward that Doc does not trust?"

    Ha yeah. Though a couple things to keep in mind. One: Said forward Jeff Green is a restricted free agent. No guarantee we will get him back. And if we do sign him, we still don't know what we're getting. 

    As much as I was a critic of the Perk trade, and still am, I did not want Ainge to resign him this offseason. Perk was going to get a rich offer from a team like OKC in the offseason. I was just disappointed because I thought we had a chance at a ring this year, and I would have preferred to let him walk. 

    I understand Ainge was at first asking for Hardin in exchange for Perk, which might have been worth doing for the long haul. But Green is not Hardin. Ainge should have walked away. 

    Supposedly this was a great trade for the future, but Nened is already gone, and Green may be too. Or worse, Ainge feels more pressure to resign him to justify the trade and he ends up being a bad contract, extending the mistake. 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from kybested. Show kybested's posts

    Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

    In Response to Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center:
    " .didn't we trade him away for an offense first forward that Doc does not trust?" Ha yeah. Though a couple things to keep in mind. One: Said forward Jeff Green is a restricted free agent. No guarantee we will get him back. And if we do sign him, we still don't know what we're getting.  As much as I was a critic of the Perk trade, and still am, I did not want Ainge to resign him this offseason. Perk was going to get a rich offer from a team like OKC in the offseason. I was just disappointed because I thought we had a chance at a ring this year, and I would have preferred to let him walk.  I understand Ainge was at first asking for Hardin in exchange for Perk, which might have been worth doing for the long haul. But Green is not Hardin. Ainge should have walked away.  Supposedly this was a great trade for the future, but Nened is already gone, and Green may be too. Or worse, Ainge feels more pressure to resign him to justify the trade and he ends up being a bad contract, extending the mistake. 
    Posted by BostonTrollSpanker


    You failed to mention that the deal also included a top 10 protected pick from the Clippers going to the Celtics in 2012. Until the Celtics use that pick we won't know for sure what we got from the Perkins trade.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

    In hindsight, Perkins certainly got more than the Celtics could/would offer, but I think his contract AAV is $8.7 mil or so for 4 years, which is not the most ridiculous contract out there for a legit starting center. 

    I'll ultimately judge the Perkins trade on how they eventually replace him.  Green has more upside, but Perk fit this sytem pretty well.   
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Petey62. Show Petey62's posts

    Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

    I believe the jury is still out on this trade and the verdict will come in with the pick we get from the Clips.

    If the Celtics re-sign Green and he has a solid season AND the Clips pick is #11 and we sign an immediate contributor (like an Austin Rivers), then I think a year from now everyone would look on this trade as one of Danny's better deals.

    Perk definitely fit the Celtics "current" system.  However, the Celtics system is changing and his skillset just might not be "worth" the contract he was going to command (which he eventually received from OKC).

    If a year from now, the Celtics are playing with a much-improved Rondo, Austin Rivers, Ray at the vet min, Pierce, Green, Baby, West and a major "push" here, Dwight Howard, I'll take that team any day.

    I am glad the Celtics did not hamstring themselves by taking on a bad contract for Perk when his talent level was not "worth" it for the next 3/4 years.

    I think the Celtics will be just fine when this all plays out.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Red-16Russ-11. Show Red-16Russ-11's posts

    Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

    I'm a little shocked that some on here did nothing  but criticize Perk's game, and now are crying becuase he was traded.  Ainge made him an offer, and he turned it down.  Better to let him walk?  This isn't baseball, and we don't get a pick because someone signed one of our free agents - we needed to get something for him.  He clearly thought himself worthy of a huge contract, and given his injury history, it was unwarranted.

    "Illegal screen....hands of stone......can't jump over a phone book."  He was a good ROLE player on our team.  But of all the starters, he is the most easily replaced.  Danny WILL get us a center this year (maybe JON and someone else) who will get us Perk numbers.  Then, like Petey and Fierce said, we can make a run a DH.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Gasthoerer. Show Gasthoerer's posts

    Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

    There are two parts in this equation:
    1) Could Perk have helped us last season and this would have been worth to lose him via free agency this year?
    2) Was it the right trade in beyond last year?

    Second one is easy IMO: Better having a pick and a chance to keep Green than nothing!

    First one? Easy as well. When we traded Perk he was injured AGAIN, and without that trade we wouldn't had 6 healthy players for weeks to come cause we had so  many of our players injured. And in the play offs? Perk was embarrassed from almost every oponent player. Chandler, Marion, Dirk and even Bareja put a dunking and layup clinic on Perk it was hard to watch.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

    If the end goal is to improve the overall team with younger talent (Green, draft pick) and to have a chance at premier FAs (Howard, ?), then I'm fine with the Perk trade given the contract he got and the fact that he turned down their offer.  It is very difficult or near impossible to rebuild and contend for a title simultaneously, however, and the trade sent a lot of mixed signals to Celtics fans.   

    I do not believe the Perk trade benefited the Celtics in the short term, either last year or this year, especially since DA was chips all in on Shaq's health, which was a risky bet.  I may be proven wrong if DA can find a guy or two that will adequately fill Perk's role on a short term deal. 

    Bottom line, I think it has become much harder for the C's to get to the finals without Perk given the dearth of FA big men out there.  If they land one that can help, compliments to DA.  I think this team has a bit of an eye to the future right now but just happens to be built to have a puncher's chance at winning the title next year.  It's the best of both worlds I guess, at least for ownership and management, since the fans will still be interested.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

    There is'nt much irony. Ainge didn't want to pay enormous dollars for a guy with a limited game.  Perk is great for 4 or 5 million.  For what he is getting now?  Not so much.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from aciemvp. Show aciemvp's posts

    Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

    In Response to There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center:
    We are looking for a physical defense first center that Doc will trust...didn't we trade him away for an offense first forward that Doc does not trust? And I am by no means in love with Perkins game at all...but the irony is somewhat thick for Ainge. I have to believe if he could sign Perkins but under the alias Kendrick Johnson, he would do it in a heartbeat. I look at the veteran centers they are looking at and it makes you root for a long lockout! Yikes.
    Posted by Celtics1986


    Oh come on.  Did you happen to catch any of Perkins' impression of a dead dog as he "played" for OKC in the playoffs?  It wasn't for lack of trying that he stunk.  Can you say slip sliding away skills?  I mean Ibaka DID EVERYTHING at the 5, including carrying Perk up and down the floor.

    Perkins had: the shoulder injury that was never going away and only going to get worse.  And now he has: LESS MOBILITY due to the knee injury.

    You do the math- the guy was not far away from being unacceptable on a number of fronts, most notably mobility.  If OKC had this one to do over, Perk would not be getting 30M, you can bank on that.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

    In defense of Perk, like Green, he had to learn a new system and develop chemistry with his new team, all while coming back from a major knee injury.  Knee injuries like Perk's notoriously take more than a year to really come back from.  If you want to argue that he makes a bit too much, I won't disagree, but there are worse guys out there to play the 5 that are paid more than he is.     
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

    It is easy to look back now that the season is over and we know what we need and who performed where... but it will be a full 12 months before we can say what Danny should have done.

    Look at the remaining factors:

    A. The long-shot Dwight Howard possibility would make everyone forget Perk and Feb of 2011... even if I don't see it happening, the trade shouldn't be judged until Howard signed with someone.

    B. Had we kept Perk we'd have still had NOTHING behind Pierce. What moves were possible otherwise? Corey Brewer? Who made twice what we could offer to go to Dallas?

    C. Future play of Perk and Green

    What if Perk is a 9p-11r-2b guy in 29-33 minutes next year with a completely healthy knee/shoulder while Green remains a frustrating enigma who flips the switch on and off depending on the game and stays a 23-27 minute, 11-13 point guy who doesn't grab enough boards for his height.

    Well then it would look worse.

    But what if Perk stays the achy knee, career (to this point) shoulder issue guy who can't play over 23-26 minutes b/c of fouls and gets 5p-7r-1b next year while Green is a starter (PP perfect 6th man) who gels with Rondo, reaches his potential, shows more fire and gets himself 33-35 minutes a game with 18-19 points and 5-6 boards?

    Well then it is a steal. And Perk got his 34 million. Green will likely play at a 1 year 6m tender and be trying to get some 5/55 extension instead of the 3/21 he showed he was worth after last year.

    D. What Centers and SF's go where. Now that we lost to Miami we can say we should have just kept Perk and not disrupted chemistry and maybe done better..... IF IF IF....

    - we can't get Dalambert or Kwame Brown or (to a lesser extent) Jeff Foster or Joel Przybilla to come here and do what Perk did sharing time with JON.

    and

    - SF's like Butler or Prince (not likely) or (to a lesser extent) Battier and Kirilinko (very likely) sign for just MLE deals and have season near compare with Jeff Green.

    E. Who do we pick with the Clippers pick, likely low teens 2012 draft

    So until we know about how ALLLLLLL those 5 things we can't say for sure if it was a good or bad move. Even tho we likely never can.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

    What do I think personally?

    A.

    We lose out on Howard (duh) but sign Chris Kaman for less than half the cost (4/44 over 6/105)

    B.

    Agonizingly impossible to know. I will never understand why we couldn't just:

    1. Have given Tony Allen the 3rd and to sweeten it a 4TH year, but made his contract descending in value (so he made like 4-3.5-3-3.5) and was only a 3m cap hit the Howard summer.

    2. Traded Sheed's soon to be void salary with Avery and/or future picks for Battier over the summer. Houstin could have kept Ariza, who they traded for way less value.

    3. Have gotten Grant Hill for Marquis and a 1st rd pick (Hill was rumored to WANT to stay in PHX, what?)

    C.

    I think Perk lumbers through 4 seasons with minor injuries, sporadic good play, great locker room/intimidator guy for that team, but the same decent but not great 8p-7r-1.5b stats he had here for our 3 runs.

    I think Green becomes that Reggie Lewis type guy, what Reggie was (a 34-36 minute 18-19ppg quiet assassi borderline all-star starter) to the early 90's big 3 (Mchale 6th man) Green becomes to our current big 3 (Pierce 6th man) with hopefully less injuries to these guys and a PG who, if he completes his game with a jumper, is WAY better than Shaw/Dee/Sherm.

    D.

    Butler gets overpaid by Cuban, Prince gets slightly more than the MLE. Battier as well to stay in Memphis. Green is WAY better than him and AK47 anyhow.

    We lose on Dalembert over years. Sign Foster or Kwame. Both would do the basically the same thing in 18-22 mins, which is defend and grab 6 boards. Since that is basically all Perk did the deal looks better and better. (I am counting on a JON rejuvination).

    E.

    Draft is heavy in skinny 19-20 year old wings and weak in mature impact players with size. With Kaman joining a talented core of guys entering primes of Rondo-Green-DWest-Baby, the soon-to-be 35 year old Pierce still very respectable in his 6th man role and (I'm 99% sure) an nearly as effective Ray Allen age 37 and JON age 34 as they were age 35 and 32 (Ray pulling a Reggie Miller) I'd say we trade the pick with Avery and maybe a future pick and see what we can get to add to that crew.

    Wildcard is PF. If KG retires and Johnson is not ready to be the perfect complement to a 14-7 Baby (skinny jumper who runs with Rondo and defends anyone from Bron/Melo to Bosh/Amare) then we are in trouble.

    If KG sticks around on the cheap to play a couple years at 16-18 mins and Johnson really blossoms, we could be elite for several more seasons.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from aciemvp. Show aciemvp's posts

    Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

    In Response to Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center:
    It is easy to look back now that the season is over and we know what we need and who performed where... but it will be a full 12 months before we can say what Danny should have done. Look at the remaining factors: A. The long-shot Dwight Howard possibility would make everyone forget Perk and Feb of 2011... even if I don't see it happening, the trade shouldn't be judged until Howard signed with someone. B. Had we kept Perk we'd have still had NOTHING behind Pierce. What moves were possible otherwise? Corey Brewer? Who made twice what we could offer to go to Dallas? C. Future play of Perk and Green What if Perk is a 9p-11r-2b guy in 29-33 minutes next year with a completely healthy knee/shoulder while Green remains a frustrating enigma who flips the switch on and off depending on the game and stays a 23-27 minute, 11-13 point guy who doesn't grab enough boards for his height. Well then it would look worse. But what if Perk stays the achy knee, career (to this point) shoulder issue guy who can't play over 23-26 minutes b/c of fouls and gets 5p-7r-1b next year while Green is a starter (PP perfect 6th man) who gels with Rondo, reaches his potential, shows more fire and gets himself 33-35 minutes a game with 18-19 points and 5-6 boards? Well then it is a steal. And Perk got his 34 million. Green will likely play at a 1 year 6m tender and be trying to get some 5/55 extension instead of the 3/21 he showed he was worth after last year. D. What Centers and SF's go where. Now that we lost to Miami we can say we should have just kept Perk and not disrupted chemistry and maybe done better..... IF IF IF.... - we can't get Dalambert or Kwame Brown or (to a lesser extent) Jeff Foster or Joel Przybilla to come here and do what Perk did sharing time with JON. and - SF's like Butler or Prince (not likely) or (to a lesser extent) Battier and Kirilinko (very likely) sign for just MLE deals and have season near compare with Jeff Green. E. Who do we pick with the Clippers pick, likely low teens 2012 draft So until we know about how ALLLLLLL those 5 things we can't say for sure if it was a good or bad move. Even tho we likely never can.
    Posted by rameakap


    DING DING DING DING!!

    this was a fantastic move for helping prolong pierce's career.  DOC was the one who could not get green integrated into the system, just as DOC is a horrible coach at executing anything but clever out of bounds plays off of a time out.

    marcheese daniels, von wafter, deloonte, also were players who were misused last year and arguably troy murphy too- not used at all.

    we had enough material at the 5 so long as we didn't gift wrap semi to the cavs like we did, i'll never understand that, even if he had pictures of danny naked with sheep

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from aciemvp. Show aciemvp's posts

    Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

    but rama, kaman?  he's injured so much.  what is his REAL value if he's around on average 40 games a year?
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ortiz123. Show Ortiz123's posts

    Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

    In Response to Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center:
    It is easy to look back now that the season is over and we know what we need and who performed where... but it will be a full 12 months before we can say what Danny should have done. Look at the remaining factors: A. The long-shot Dwight Howard possibility would make everyone forget Perk and Feb of 2011... even if I don't see it happening, the trade shouldn't be judged until Howard signed with someone. B. Had we kept Perk we'd have still had NOTHING behind Pierce. What moves were possible otherwise? Corey Brewer? Who made twice what we could offer to go to Dallas? C. Future play of Perk and Green What if Perk is a 9p-11r-2b guy in 29-33 minutes next year with a completely healthy knee/shoulder while Green remains a frustrating enigma who flips the switch on and off depending on the game and stays a 23-27 minute, 11-13 point guy who doesn't grab enough boards for his height. Well then it would look worse. But what if Perk stays the achy knee, career (to this point) shoulder issue guy who can't play over 23-26 minutes b/c of fouls and gets 5p-7r-1b next year while Green is a starter (PP perfect 6th man) who gels with Rondo, reaches his potential, shows more fire and gets himself 33-35 minutes a game with 18-19 points and 5-6 boards? Well then it is a steal. And Perk got his 34 million. Green will likely play at a 1 year 6m tender and be trying to get some 5/55 extension instead of the 3/21 he showed he was worth after last year. D. What Centers and SF's go where. Now that we lost to Miami we can say we should have just kept Perk and not disrupted chemistry and maybe done better..... IF IF IF.... - we can't get Dalambert or Kwame Brown or (to a lesser extent) Jeff Foster or Joel Przybilla to come here and do what Perk did sharing time with JON. and - SF's like Butler or Prince (not likely) or (to a lesser extent) Battier and Kirilinko (very likely) sign for just MLE deals and have season near compare with Jeff Green. E. Who do we pick with the Clippers pick, likely low teens 2012 draft So until we know about how ALLLLLLL those 5 things we can't say for sure if it was a good or bad move. Even tho we likely never can.
    Posted by rameakap


    It is easy to look back now that the season is over and we know what we need and who performed where...
    So true...we have that ability because we can wait a year and see all the variable fall together..Ainge doe'nt have that luxury..he has to make decision on the fly...it's amazing how some fans pretend like they would have made the right and "obvious" decisions...

    either way, who in their right minde would keep a broken down, limited center, after he turns your offer down..when the opportunity presents itself, you gotta take it..If we get as good a player with the pick as we got with this draft, its a no brainer because we still remain relevant, and rebuild for the future at the same time...most Gm's would kill for an opportunity like that.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

    In Response to Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center:
    In Response to Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center : DING DING DING DING!! this was a fantastic move for helping prolong pierce's career.  DOC was the one who could not get green integrated into the system, just as DOC is a horrible coach at executing anything but clever out of bounds plays off of a time out. marcheese daniels, von wafter, deloonte, also were players who were misused last year and arguably troy murphy too- not used at all. we had enough material at the 5 so long as we didn't gift wrap semi to the cavs like we did, i'll never understand that, even if he had pictures of danny naked with sheep
    Posted by aciemvp


    You must have missed the part where I said the Mavs paid him DOUBLE what we could have to fill in for Caron.

    Doc is supposed to alter his almost 4 year big 3 offense mid-season to accomodate a player he saw twice a year playing out of position in OKC? hahahahaha

    Green was brought in to rest Pierce and Ray, defend young long 3's, show confidence in attacking the rim and rebound. Only thing you can blame Doc for is not cutting the mins of PP/Ray but Green was very uninspired to do the things needed of him that coaching has NOTHING to do with.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

    In Response to Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center:
    In Response to Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center : It is easy to look back now that the season is over and we know what we need and who performed where... So true...we have that ability because we can wait a year and see all the variable fall together..Ainge doe'nt have that luxury..he has to make decision on the fly...it's amazing how some fans pretend like they would have made the right and "obvious" decisions... either way, who in their right minde would keep a broken down, limited center, after he turns your offer down..when the opportunity presents itself, you gotta take it..If we get as good a player with the pick as we got with this draft, its a no brainer because we still remain relevant, and rebuild for the future at the same time...most Gm's would kill for an opportunity like that.
    Posted by Ortiz123


    Yup, gotta wait another year at least
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtics1986. Show Celtics1986's posts

    Re: There is some irony here as we look for a defensive center

    Don't get me wrong, I would have traded perkins for Green in a nano second, Green almost made the dream team, he was one of the last cuts. I am just saying it is ironic how the one thing Perkins brought, pure toughness in the middle, is the one thing it appears is not at all available on the market.
     
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