They could play in today's NBA

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    They could play in today's NBA

    Just for fun, I took a look at the list of NBA Hall of Fame Players who I think would've been all stars in today's game....I think that each of them probably would be playing his original position...some of these guys played multiple positions...I listed them alphabetically and by position...(back in the day they were just guards, forwards, and centers)....each player began his career prior to the NBA/ABA Merger (1976)

    Guards

    Tiny Archibald

    Dave Bing

    Bob Cousy

    Gail Goodrich

    Hal Greer

    Walt Frazier

    Sam Jones

    Pete Maravich

    Earl Monroe

    Oscar Robertson

    Jerry West

    Paul Westphal

    Jo Jo White

    Lenny Wilkins

    Forwards

    Rick Barry

    Elgin Baylor

    Bill Bradley

    Billy Cunningham

    Dave Debusschere

    Julius Erving

    George Gervin

    John Havlicek

    Connie Hawkins

    Elvin Hayes

    Jerry Lucas

    Bob Pettit

    Maurice Stokes

    Chet Walker

    Keith Wilkes

    Centers

    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

    Walt Bellamy

    Wilt Chamberlain

    Dave Cowans

    Mel Daniels

    Artis Gilmore

    Dan Issel

    Bob Lanier

    Bob McAdoo

    Willis Reed

    Bill Russell

    Nate Thurmond

    Wes Unseld

    Bill Walton

    These guys were tremendously talented athletes who were all multiple all stars in their leagues....now add to this list the many multiple all star selections who didn't make it into the Hall....also consider that I left off players who entered the league a year or so after the merger but still began prior to the Bird/Magic Era (1979/80)

    you have players here who began their careers in the 1950's, '60's, and '70's.....simply put, these guys could play the game....they would be stars in any era in my opinion!

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rajon-Hondo. Show Rajon-Hondo's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA

    I've had the priveledge to watch all those mentioned,Petit and Cousy being the ones I saw the least. You also left off Bob Love who I feel would have had a better carreer in todays league.  Players from yesterday had as good or better game than todays players. Players from that era usually had second carreers while playing.nobody had personal trainers,nutrientnists and no HGH,Steriods et al. Todays NBA players may be more cut more and may have an inch or two higherhops but also play in a more diluted talent pool. Todays game is marketed better fo sho but better ballers no way. Unless you listen to azzclowns like steviea smith et al. Not only that but had they had the 3 point line in their time Ray Allen would be about 19th-24th best 3 point shooter all time. You also left off the gus the "wizard"williams,John "Soup" Williams,Downtown Freddie Brown,Kevin Greevy, etc etc, I could go on and on.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA


    THE DUKE

     

    Good points....I tried to stay with only Hall of Fame members....but you're right....there was great talent that never made it into the Hall...those guys knew how to play fundamental basketball...give Russell today's regimen...the weight room, nutrients and supplements, personal trainer, etc....he would play at around 245 lbs and still be the athletic freak that he was...

     
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    Re: They could play in today's NBA


    blah...Walton would still spend all his time on crutches

     

    Cool

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA


    THE DUKE

    there are 14 centers on this list....is there one center playing today that is better than any of these guys....?  ....think about it...

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jump-ball-overtime. Show Jump-ball-overtime's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA


    When I re-watch the Russell and Chaimberlain duels, the one thing that is obviously different today, is the wrestling matches that occur in the low post today. Guys with greater mass, move out guys with less mass. During the Russell Chaimberlain era, it was not allowed. Yes there were elbows, and hard fouls, but no wrestling matches. While I believe the Russell was the man in his era, I don't believe a 6'9" guy that weighed 220 lbs. would play center in today's league. He might be a small forward, or possibly a power forward.

    I know this is sacreligious, but belief is a poor arguement, compared to empirical evidence.

    In addition, teams win championships, and stars achieve statistics; however, guys like Russell and KG are able to infuence others to do the coaches bidding, and play the the team way to win championships.

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rajon-Hondo. Show Rajon-Hondo's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA

    What "emperical evidence" do you speak of?

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from futbal. Show futbal's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA

    No brainier, just take five Cs from the list and you win the NBA Championship. Tiny (better than Parker), JoJo (hugely under rated Finals MVP), Hondo (8 Championships, only Russ and Sam Jones at 9 have more), Cowens and Walton (man would these two school the bigs in today's NBA). This five healthy would destroy the Heat or Spurs...to be expected from an all time great list. I mean Hibbert is good, but is he better than Artis Gilmore, no, Not close. Imagine the lessons McAdoo would tattoo on Bosch's psyche about outside shooting; I think Bosch would cry. Hondo would be outmuscled by LeBron but on the other end he would wear him out, Hondo ran 48 minutes all out. The other thing is before the three point rule, the mid range game mattered more, and guys like JoJo hit pull up 14 foot jumpers in transition like hitting lay ups...today's players can not really do that so the all time list players would feast on the pack the paint defense the Spurs used in game 1.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA


    THE DUKE   great points....today's game pales in comparison !

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jump-ball-overtime. Show Jump-ball-overtime's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA

    In response to Rajon-Hondo's comment:

    What "emperical evidence" do you speak of?




    I was refering to the tapes of the early games compared to the wrestling matches in the post today.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from cole-ely. Show cole-ely's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA

    A lot of these giuys could score but the other team would go right at them defensively.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA

    In response to Duke4's comment:


    THE DUKE

    there are 14 centers on this list....is there one center playing today that is better than any of these guys....?  ....think about it...


    While your list of centers came from players that played in the 50's,60's and 70's the below list contains players that played at least part of their careers in the 2000's. While many do not play center their size would certainly have enabled them to play there back in the early years.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1996&year_max=2013&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=80&height_max=91&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=2&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=efg_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=.25&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=height

     Seems

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA

    In response to SeemsToMe's comment:

    In response to Duke4's comment:

     


    THE DUKE

    there are 14 centers on this list....is there one center playing today that is better than any of these guys....?  ....think about it...

     


    While your list of centers came from players that played in the 50's,60's and 70's the below list contains players that played at least part of their careers in the 2000's. While many do not play center their size would certainly have enabled them to play there back in the early years.

     

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1996&year_max=2013&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=80&height_max=91&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=2&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=efg_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=.25&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=height

     Seems




     Below is the list of the big men for the early years.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1956&year_max=1975&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=80&height_max=91&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=Y&is_as=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=3&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=efg_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=.25&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=height

    Russell did not play against 4 of the above.

    Seems

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA

    In response to Jump-ball-overtime's comment:


    When I re-watch the Russell and Chaimberlain duels, the one thing that is obviously different today, is the wrestling matches that occur in the low post today. Guys with greater mass, move out guys with less mass. During the Russell Chaimberlain era, it was not allowed. Yes there were elbows, and hard fouls, but no wrestling matches. While I believe the Russell was the man in his era, I don't believe a 6'9" guy that weighed 220 lbs. would play center in today's league. He might be a small forward, or possibly a power forward.

    I know this is sacreligious, but belief is a poor arguement, compared to empirical evidence.

    In addition, teams win championships, and stars achieve statistics; however, guys like Russell and KG are able to infuence others to do the coaches bidding, and play the the team way to win championships.




    Jump-ball

    Great point about the lack of physical play in the early years. Next time your viewing the old films also note  how limited they were in the use of their off shooting hand when dribbling the ball.

    Seems

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Eldunker. Show Eldunker's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA

    Not arguing the point, but modern training programs, diets, and supplements (legal of course) generally helps make today's players faster and stronger than players from previous generations.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA

    In response to Eldunker's comment:

     

    Not arguing the point, but modern training programs, diets, and supplements (legal of course) generally helps make today's players faster and stronger than players from previous generations.

     


     

     

    The major difference between the first 25-30 years and the more recent years is race. In those sports(Positions) where Speed, Agility and quickness make a difference the transition from American white to Black as been astounding. Track-sprint events,   Football-Running backs,defensive backs and wide recievers,   Basketball- All heights but especially players under 6'8". 

    Seems

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from basketbert. Show basketbert's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA

    In response to Eldunker's comment:

    Not arguing the point, but modern training programs, diets, and supplements (legal of course) generally helps make today's players faster and stronger than players from previous generations.




    Sure, but the players from yesteryear would also benefit from today's training methods, diets etc.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA

    In response to basketbert's comment:

    In response to Eldunker's comment:

     

    Not arguing the point, but modern training programs, diets, and supplements (legal of course) generally helps make today's players faster and stronger than players from previous generations.

     




    Sure, but the players from yesteryear would also benefit from today's training methods, diets etc.

     


    Basketbert's

    Which is another way of saying that they weren't as good (skilled). Remember, this a comparison of what they were-not would they could have been.

    Seems

    Seems

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA


    THE DUKE

    I disagree on the last point Seems...I was looking at the greats of the past who I feel would still be great today....not at the entire league as a whole....this thread stems from some of the opinions held by the younger fans...that everything that was accomplished before (take your pick) expansion....the NBA/ABA Merger...the Bird/Magic Era...the Michael Jordan Era... aren't important or should have an asterisk..

    My point is that the greats that I mentioned were teriffic basketball players and athletes....if they were able to play todays game it stands to reason that they would be doing everything today's players are doing as far as diet, working with weights, having personal trainers, etc...

    I'm not saying that you need to assume that they might be an inch or two taller...but they would most certainly add needed muscle to play in today's game....so I am not advocationg what they might be...put it this way... take Elgin Baylor....he was 6-5 225...look at his body....strong as an ox but not ripped....that's because weight training was frowned upon back in the day when it came to baseball and basketball...that would change if these guys were playing today

    Anyway...usually you and I are on the same page....maybe not on this one...?

    You did make one point that I do agree with....today's players are bigger but many that don't play center could if asked to do so...everyone in todays NBA is a good enough athlete to play in the old league...but with so many "one and done" players coming into the league....are all of them skilled enough at the funtamental game of basketball to have excelled...or even to have made it onto a roster? I don't think so...in fact, two thirds of today's players wouldn't be in the league if it were an 8 or a 12 (even 16) team league...it's like MLB...the starting pitching is so watered down these days....

    Again...we are sharing opinions and we certainly don't have to agree.....as always, good hearing from you...I love the way you delve into things with  gusto....you are always prepared my friend!!

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA

    In response to Duke4's comment:


    THE DUKE

    I disagree on the last point Seems...I was looking at the greats of the past who I feel would still be great today....not at the entire league as a whole....this thread stems from some of the opinions held by the younger fans...that everything that was accomplished before (take your pick) expansion....the NBA/ABA Merger...the Bird/Magic Era...the Michasl Jorda Era... aren't important or should have an asterisk..

    My point is that the greats that I mentioned were teriffic basketball players and athletes....if they were able to play todays game it stands to reason that they would be doing everything today's players are doing as far as diet, working with weights, having personal trainers, etc...

    I'm not saying that you need to assume that they might be an inch or two taller...but they would most certainly need added muscle to play in today's game....so I am not advocationg what they might be...for instance take Elgin Baylor....he was 6-5 225...look at his body....strong as an ox but not ripped....that's because weight training was frowned upon back in the day when it came to baseball and basketball...that would change if these guys were playing today

    Anyway...usually you and I are on the same page....maybe not on this one...?

    You did make one point that I do agree with....today's players are bigger but many that don't play center could if asked to do so...everyone in todays NBA is a good enough athlete to play in the old league...but with so many "one and done" players coming into the league....are all of them skilled enough at the funtamental game of basketball to have excelled...? I don't think so...in fact, two thirds of today's players wouldn't be in the league if it were an 8 or a 12 (even 16) team league...it's like MLB...the starting pitching is so watered down these days....

    Again...we are sharing opinions and we certainly don't have to agree.....as always, good hearing from you...I love the way you delve into things with  gusto....you are always prepared my friend!!

     


    Whats new Duke?

    Rather than going back and forth with numbers and opinions I'll just make a few statements.

    Your completely wrapped up in the legends of the greats of the 50's-60's as are most old timers who remember the "good old days". You seem to be strictly locked in on their outstanding achievments with total disregard as to the level of the competition back in the 50's and 60's. As you know in sports there are always, no matter what level of competition, those  that put up the numbers. Certainly the players you mention in your list were the cream of the crop back then and deserve to be in the HOF.

     But the big question is just how well their physical and basketball skills of the 50's-60's would fare in the Present generation. Since this a discussion about the players of the early years vs the modern generation makeovers are not permitted.What you see is what you get.

      Here are a few points.

    The moderns are

     Taller, heavier,faster, quicker,far superior shooters and ambidextrous ball handlers,and dominated by blacks whose athleticism is of the charts.

      You imply that the league is watered down and that the players are not fundamentality sound. Could you back that up with some explanations?

     Seems  

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from futbal. Show futbal's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA

    Let's build a big three from the list; each of whom would be a top 10 player today. George "ice" Gervin (black) an unstopable dribble penetrator, Jerry West (white) arguably the best two guard ever not named Jordan (sorry Kobe), and Bill Walton perhaps the best all around big man ever when healthy (white). This team could replace either big three from the Spurs or Miami and win because they are better (except LeBron is a better swingman than Gervin, but Gervin of the ABA was unstoppable so LeBron is not that much better). But nobody on the Spurs or Miami would have an answer for Walton or West. To repeat, this is a no-brainer excercise, Walton, Kareem, Tiny and many others on the list played in the NBA-success era (ie, Bird-Magic onward) as older guys and still played great...By the way, Dave Cowens beat Kareem in his prime in the NBA finals, what do you think he would do with Duncan? Jeesh.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: They could play in today's NBA


    THE DUKE 

    Seems....just to set the record straight.....I began following basketball in the late '50's...I think that the league prior to the shot clock was completely inferior to today's game....it was another game altogether...the shot clock changed everything...I mentioned one player (Stokes) who played only in the '50's....the majority of the players I named who started out in the '50's were at their peak and stars in the '60's....so I am really focusing on just how many greats starred in the 60's & '70's and who I think would still be stars today.....the '50's really mean nothing to me....

    as for "watered down talent" in todays game.....we are seeing players coming into the league right out of high school or after 1-2 years of college...guys like Gerald Green and Kwame Brown (tremendous athletes but below average pro basketball players).....some make it but the vast majority do not....granted we now have international players in the league and many of them are great...that is a plus for today's game....but the number of players making rosters and collecting paychecks without contributing much is huge....if the NBA contracted 5-10 teams the quality would greatly increase and the league would be stronger and more competitive.....

    Simply put...if Wilt could excell in today's game then so could Russell who Wilt admitted was his toughest opponent....just my opinion...

     

     
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